Its Electric!

[catbuster]

10-17 gph... I feel faint lol
though in the right hands big machines get a lot of work done in a day. but geeslus 170 gal in 10 hours... ohhhh the pretty pretty lights.... mah? that you ma? thud....

$7.23 a yard, man. I know it spunds menial. But that was the magic number to bid earthwork over 50,000 CY at in 2020. In ten hours a 349 with a big bucket will do about 300 30 yard loads. Rock was extra, etc. And it includes hauling and grading. Plus about $1.10 for compaction. And mobilization.

It makes for a $75,000 day. Burning about $700 in fuel for the loading tool is no big deal. Just different a different arena than Peaches plays in.

Anyway, I sidetracked. Diesel electric produces a great running dozer. I don’t see it really being helpful over diesel-hydraulic for things like excavators, knuckleboom loaders, yarders, etc. I dunno, we will see, but I can’t see diesel really having much of a future in the so-called “carbon neutral” world we’re purportedly looking forward to.

 

[northmanlogging]

$7.23 a yard, man. I know it spunds menial. But that was the magic number to bid earthwork over 50,000 CY at in 2020. In ten hours a 349 with a big bucket will do about 300 30 yard loads. Rock was extra, etc. And it includes hauling and grading. Plus about $1.10 for compaction. And mobilization.

It makes for a $75,000 day. Burning about $700 in fuel for the loading tool is no big deal. Just different a different arena than Peaches plays in.

Anyway, I sidetracked. Diesel electric produces a great running dozer. I don’t see it really being helpful over diesel-hydraulic for things like excavators, knuckleboom loaders, yarders, etc. I dunno, we will see, but I can’t see diesel really having much of a future in the so-called “carbon neutral” world we’re purportedly looking forward to.

I know that price goes up with machine size and all, but its still sticker shock.

Efficiency of work and all that too, at least to some extent, the poor bastard thats gotta pay for it all though... 75k a day ouch

Got into a "discussion" cough... lawsuit with a client because he thought I should of had a much bigger machine and finished the job in 3 days, instead of 6 weeks, him not realizing that my at the time $80 an hour was CHEAP! a bigger hoe would of taken at least 3 days to clear would of cost him as you say at least $225000, vs my bill of around $8000, including 400' of road and utilities (6-7 weeks includes logging, all this while I was still a weekend warrior)

Anyway, its a matter of scale



I do think yer right though, hybrid or full EV for heavy dirt work is a pipe dream, but for a little retail aggregate shop or someone that works in cities, it could be a boon.

 

[Bill G]

10-17 gph... I feel faint lol
though in the right hands big machines get a lot of work done in a day. but geeslus 170 gal in 10 hours... ohhhh the pretty pretty lights.... mah? that you ma? thud....

Well the gentleman said

Let’s just look at some numbers from the world I live in right now. Cat’s 349F excavator has a 190 gallon tank, so two transfer tank loads, and my experience I saw between 10-17 gallons per hour consumption depending on application, although I once saw 22 running WFO in HP mode slinging dirt with a 4.5 yard bucket… My transfer tank pump does 15 gpm, so after ~13 minutes at the machine I can get it ready for the next day, even if it’s a long one. I just can’t see electric doing that, ever......................

I will not get into any dispute between you or anyone on fuel economy as everyone has their opinions. I am sure all of those are valid.

What I will say is if you read what the gentleman said......"slinging dirt with a 4.5 yard bucket…" Now let's all grasp that.....ponder that,..... Let me tell ya slinging dirt from a 4.5 yard bucket....that right there is moving soil folks. You effectively move soil you make money. Yes fuel is money but time is also money and slinging a 4.5 yard bucket is slinging soil.

 

[Aknutter]

I can see the heavy equipment is in for a change, but what about the cargo ships floating around. The diesels in them are huge, big enough to stand upright in a cylinder. I can't even imagine the fuel consumption and the CO2 emissions.

 

[Bill G]

I can see the heavy equipment is in for a change, but what about the cargo ships floating around. The diesels in them are huge, big enough to stand upright in a cylinder. I can't even imagine the fuel consumption and the CO2 emissions.

Well I agree they need a look but apparently they are using "bunker oil" which from what I understand is basically raw , unrefined oil. I doubt OPEC will allow that to change and if I understand it correctly it is only in international waters where no one country can dictate regualtions.

 

[JRM]

I can’t see diesel really having much of a future in the so-called “carbon neutral” world we’re purportedly looking forward to.

Your right, of course. Logic, cost, and efficiencies have nothing to do with the reasons for this, either.

 

[les-or-more]

Well I agree they need a look but apparently they are using "bunker oil" which from what I understand is basically raw , unrefined oil. I doubt OPEC will allow that to change and if I understand it correctly it is only in international waters where no one country can dictate regualtions.

That is why diesel prices went up Bill, shipping had to switch to diesel, they aren't allowed to use heavy oils anymore.

 

[JRM]

I think they are now all mandated to run LSD (not the drug, LOL) Sulphur limit of .4 or something like that, compared to .0015 limit of ULSD.
But to Les point the fuels all have to run through the same refineries now, that wasn't the case with bunker fuels.

 

[catbuster]

I know that price goes up with machine size and all, but its still sticker shock.

Efficiency of work and all that too, at least to some extent, the poor bastard thats gotta pay for it all though... 75k a day ouch

Got into a "discussion" cough... lawsuit with a client because he thought I should of had a much bigger machine and finished the job in 3 days, instead of 6 weeks, him not realizing that my at the time $80 an hour was CHEAP! a bigger hoe would of taken at least 3 days to clear would of cost him as you say at least $225000, vs my bill of around $8000, including 400' of road and utilities (6-7 weeks includes logging, all this while I was still a weekend warrior)

Anyway, its a matter of scale



I do think yer right though, hybrid or full EV for heavy dirt work is a pipe dream, but for a little retail aggregate shop or someone that works in cities, it could be a boon.

I think so too. Electric forklifts have been in service for decades, and small equipment has been headed towards electrification for a long time. When the batteries are as energy dense as fuel plus an ICE it totally makes sense.

I wonder if the client you had understood that coming in with a bigger machine would have probably made a bigger mess and would have probably required more extensive clearing just to get utilities in. Oh well.

As for sticker shock… When I first saw an spreadsheet with a budget breakdown, unit costs and everything else for my first big heavy civil project, I was shocked too. Maybe I’ve just gone numb to it, or adjusted my view as it’s pretty much all I’ve done. I dunno. Public and private jobs all cost the same, it’s just the commercial jobs we can mark up more.

Your right, of course. Logic, cost, and efficiencies have nothing to do with the reasons for this, either.

I don’t know what you’re getting at here. Are you saying CO2 and other emissions from hydrocarbon fuels aren’t affecting the world, or saying electric isn’t the way forward for everything?

 

[JRM]

I don’t know what you’re getting at here. Are you saying CO2 and other emissions from hydrocarbon fuels aren’t affecting the world, or saying electric isn’t the way forward for everything?

It's not the way forward for everything but unfortunately thats what is being pushed. As I alluded to earlier I do think battery power has its place. Refuse, city transit, commuter transport. Forklifts as you mentioned. About 15 years ago (give or take) we rebuilt an equipment elevator at Morton salts mine that runs underneath Lake Erie. They had 2 electric scoops in the mine. They weren't purpose built EV but something that GE took to their facility and replaced the diesel powertrain with a battery pack and AC drives. The consensus was that they basically needed 2 machines to do the work of 1 diesel in a shift but was worth the trade off for obvious reasons. The mine lead that was our job rep said that the ventilation system in that mine was one of the biggest expenses. Eliminating diesel for electric makes sense in situations like that even though they may not perform as well.

 

[Bill G]

That is why diesel prices went up Bill, shipping had to switch to diesel, they aren't allowed to use heavy oils anymore.

Well I learned something today which is always a good thing. I did not know that they could no longer use the bunker oil anymore. How was that decision made and who enforces it while in international waters? In no way am I disagreeing as I know zero about it.

 

[Bill G]

Well I just did a google search.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/un-adopts-ban-heavy-fuel-oil-use-by-ships-arctic-2021-06-17/https://theicct.org/the-end-of-the-era-of-heavy-fuel-oil-in-maritime-shipping/

 

[JRM]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Maritime_Organization

 

[MowerMilitia]

I'm torn on the hydrogen stuff, especially the "fuel cell" idea Chevy tried that awhile ago and it was a total failure, essentially using natural gas as a fuel stock to then create hydrogen, then charge a battery with that? Seems like a whole lot of wasted steps to still be sucking the teat of big oil, Hydrogen Gas as a fuel makes absolute sense, cause when it burns it creates water, and you get it from water... but its super inefficient, be better to go biodiesel if you wanted to retain internal combustion but be more green, 90% of the power of petro diesel with what 10% of the emissions? And it can be made from algae in remote lifeless areas, much like petro oil only without the nastyness.

If humans want to maintain a lifestyle remotely similar to what we have now, with heat, abundance, cheap transportation, etc., then we are going to need a lot of nuclear reactors making a lot of electricity for hydrogen, charging EVs, even distilling ocean water if the drought persists. I don’t see this blip lasting, it was only 160 years ago we were using whale oil for light. The fancy life uses too much energy.

 

[northmanlogging]

If humans want to maintain a lifestyle remotely similar to what we have now, with heat, abundance, cheap transportation, etc., then we are going to need a lot of nuclear reactors making a lot of electricity for hydrogen, charging EVs, even distilling ocean water if the drought persists. I don’t see this blip lasting, it was only 160 years ago we were using whale oil for light. The fancy life uses too much energy.

Nuclear shmooklear. everyone's suddenly got a hard on for fission power, do ya all not remember Chernobyl, Fukishima, Hanford, 3 Mile Is.?

Wind, Solar, and tidal are unstoppable and clean, Hydro is clean but we can argue about dams causing other damages, if folks were to give the "green" energy an unbiased look, its by far better then fossil or fission, sadly though the fossil fuel folks and to some extent the fission folks have been S talking it for decades now, have to ask yourself why.

 

[les-or-more]

Wind, Solar, and tidal are unstoppable and clean,

if folks were to give the "green" energy an unbiased look,

Are you not doing what you accuse others of doing?

 

[slowp]

About logging: Solar panels in the woods might require larger landing sizes, or parking equipment in openings. Winter time charging in the mountains would take a bit of juggling--depending on the aspect of the landing. Maybe only work in south facing units in the winter?? Just doing some thinking brain stuff here. Yarders don't like to move.

You'd also probably need one of those grumpy old watchguys who dwell in an old RV like we see in "homeless" encampments.

This will not be easy--the change to another source of power, not the watchman.

FYI, I am able to keep my little marine battery topped off with a 100 watt panel on a drizzly day in Farleyville. The battery powers lights, water pump, fans and charging up electronics in the little trailer. I was surprised by that performance. A larger scale operation is possible.

Battery fires? In the Ebike community, those fires are primarily from cheap, home made or Chinese cheap batteries. In cities, some of the charging is suspect what with multiple batteries on chargers plugged into one outlet in an old apartment building. The ebike world is the wild west right now. My most used bike is UL approved with a Bosch battery and charger.

That brings up more thinking. Fire season. Would there still be restrictions? More restrictions because of the fear of battery fires? Less because of the lack of sparks in the exhaust? Might the increase of operating hours make electric equipment more lucrative? Lots of thinking to do. More coffee!

 

[Bill G]

Nuclear shmooklear. everyone's suddenly got a hard on for fission power, do ya all not remember Chernobyl, Fukishima, Hanford, 3 Mile Is.?

Wind, Solar, and tidal are unstoppable and clean, Hydro is clean but we can argue about dams causing other damages, if folks were to give the "green" energy an unbiased look, its by far better then fossil or fission, sadly though the fossil fuel folks and to some extent the fission folks have been S talking it for decades now, have to ask yourself why.

Where would you propose all those items be implemented in the USA?

 

[northmanlogging]

Are you not doing what you accuse others of doing?

and your point is?

 

[slowp]

Where would you propose all those items be implemented in the USA?

My state of Warshington, and Northman's already had hydropower. We now have massive wind power areas in windy areas. The wind turbines around the town of Goldendale have kept the town alive. Previously, it was a town where the nearby aluminum plant was the major employer. That plant closed. The wind turbines moved in and folks went back to work. Since that was one of the earlier areas to get wind turbines, it also became a place to train workers. My source for this info. was talking to a resident about "Where do people find work here?" I knew about the aluminum plant shut down at the time. Goldendale is famous for being a windy place, as is the Kittitas Valley to the north, where more turbine farms exist. You'll see turbines all over the place in the windy parts of our state.

We once had nuclear energy. One of those reactors was of the same build as Chernobyl. It was shut down some time ago, and the other reactors since. Now we have a major cleanup site from the plutonium manufacturing operations and other waste being shipped to the area. The cleanup is a moneypit and still is ongoing until????? We are now gunshy about nuclear power. We like our Columbia River to be free of plutonium.

There is talk about building a gravity power plant up on a hill above the Columbia.

Note: We had no shortage of electricity during the heatwave. Much of the state has "socialist" power suppliers and they do a great job of managing the power for people, not stockholders.