Lean + Target ->...Prune?

[treeseer]

This one was lifting the sidewalk 4 years ago, but no one sees a problem with it today.

Even a big hollow leaning tree over Main Street can be responsibly managed by pruning.

Anyone else got an example?

 

[Pelorus]

"Even a big hollow leaning tree over Main Street can be responsibly managed by pruning"

You don't say! When your big hollow leaner eventually fails I hope the target isn't a hapless pedestrian or motorist.

 

[Raintree]

I'm all for saving big old trees. The trouble is, you know the tree is structurally defective, hence the weight reduction pruning. God forbid someone is seriously injured or killed when it fails. What will you tell the jury? "we tried to make it safe"?

All that aside nice job on the pruning.

 

[treeman75]

Around here the city would be all over you to fix that side walk. They have code enforcers driving around looking for stuff like that and low hanging trees on the parking.

 

[treeseer]

All trees are structurally defective, in some way, to some extent. Almost all trees get weight reduction pruning. It makes sense to stop managing, and call for Basil Kutz, when the owner decides that is the right thing to do.

If a bridge inspector finds structural defects, does she recommend removal every time? :hmm3grin2orange:

We can try to make things safeR, not safe--who would be dumb enough to say that? If we work to ANSI Standards (starting with establishing the objective, with the owner) and disclaim limitations, that's what we would tell the jury, in the extremely unlikely event of failure and injury.

Around here the city would be all over you to fix that side walk. They have code enforcers driving around looking for stuff like that and low hanging trees on the parking.

In your city arborists fix sidewalks? And the concrete finishers plant trees huh?

 

[pdqdl]

In Kansas City, the inspectors come around and MAKE the adjacent property owner pay for a new sidewalk, generally only when someone puts in a complaint. At the same time, they ignore sidewalks that are heaving up and down treacherously in the poor parts of town. Why? Nobody seems to be available to pay the bill, and the tax-repossesion rate is too high already.

They won't do diddly about the trees, though. No code enforcement for truly dangerous trees, no protections for the good ones.

Trees are on their own in this town.

 

[sgreanbeans]

Trees are on their own in this town.

Same here, they only respond if the get multiple calls on the same tree. Drive around town, big nasty's lurking from above, so dead they have a tombstone at the base. Parks have big, GIANT oaks and such, awesome trees, no love for them. But they will spend big dollars on planting new ones, too bad they hardly ever get planted properly. We have a street, 53rd, main road thru town, 100's of dead or die'in 3" cal B&B's. Planted WAY too deep, how to fix? Plant more...........way to deep, or stake the crap out of them, or set them on the top and pile mulch around them, ya know, make it look like a volcano. They are all over the side walk thing tho. Recently, on another main road called devils glen, 2 years ago, they re-did the walk for about 4 miles, this year they moved all the poles over and planted them thru the middle of the new walks, now they are ripping the brand new walks out and pouring new, tax dollars at work............
If a tree is heaving a walk, they hire in concrete crews to hack out the root and poor new, right away, they move fast on that, but the giant oak that has been dead for 5-6 years in the middle of the park, with benches under neath (that are used most of the time) they will stay. No money for that........we need walks

 

[treeman75]

All trees are structurally defective, in some way, to some extent. Almost all trees get weight reduction pruning. It makes sense to stop managing, and call for Basil Kutz, when the owner decides that is the right thing to do.

If a bridge inspector finds structural defects, does she recommend removal every time? :hmm3grin2orange:

We can try to make things safeR, not safe--who would be dumb enough to say that? If we work to ANSI Standards (starting with establishing the objective, with the owner) and disclaim limitations, that's what we would tell the jury, in the extremely unlikely event of failure and injury.



In your city arborists fix sidewalks? And the concrete finishers plant trees huh?

When I sad "you" it meant the property owner. It is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

[tree md]

Just heard on the news last night that Tulsa is implementing a planting program for downtown because studies show that more trees reduce crime... Who knew.

 

[beastmaster]

I would be worried that some time in the near future the City will come out to fix that sidewalk, and root prune the supporting roots, now you have a hazard.
I think old trees should be preserved more. I am sure you inspected the tree and roots for defects and made your decisions based on all the factors. The fear of liability has doomed many a tree. Most City's out here will remove before repair. As soon as you correct a potential problem a lawyer could twist that around as prior knowledge that a tree was dangerous and could fall. You lively hood is tied to the trees survival. Sad, but not many are willing to risk it.
I think you did an excellent job on pruning the weight off that tree and still letting it keep it dignity.

 

[NCTREE]

There is a borough around here that is fixing all the curbs where the large trees have pushed. They are making the homeowners fix the heaving sidewalks, some are removing the trees others aren't either way roots are being cut and trees are dying and some are falling over. So who's liable?

 

[lxt]

All trees are structurally defective, in some way, to some extent. Almost all trees get weight reduction pruning. It makes sense to stop managing, and call for Basil Kutz, when the owner decides that is the right thing to do.

If a bridge inspector finds structural defects, does she recommend removal every time? :hmm3grin2orange:

We can try to make things safeR, not safe--who would be dumb enough to say that? If we work to ANSI Standards (starting with establishing the objective, with the owner) and disclaim limitations, that's what we would tell the jury, in the extremely unlikely event of failure and injury.



In your city arborists fix sidewalks? And the concrete finishers plant trees huh?

Ill bet the bridge inspector wont tell the contractor to remove weight from the structure so motorists can continue use of the bridge, also they will detour motorists & not allow access due to safety.........So your analogy is way off!

you tell the jury we tried to make it safer, not safe! good Luck with that!! & what are the resistograph readings on that tree? would those readings justify leaving the tree? ANSI standards & their objective dont rule out common sense & eliminating "hazards" or "potential hazards" that are in the making, will the tree continue to decline? & will that decline be more rapid due to the structural defieciency present?

Saving trees might be your business but......saving a life or property should take precedence over ones ignorance & greed, will the money be worth it if failure occurred, let alone if an injury occurred!! cause you didnt exercise due diligence in the removing of an existing hazard, you provided a service & should of known better (just such happened here & the tree service lost).




LXT...........

 

[Pelorus]

I remember many years ago seeing a photo in a local (Bracebridge, Ontario) weekly newspaper that showed a large tree (I think it was a Manitoba Maple - yuck) that was on top of. and through a homeowner's roof. The caption accompanying that photo read: "An Arborist Said This Tree was Safe". No mention was made of who the said arborist was, or what company was behind his pronouncement. I made a point then and there to never tell any client or potential client that "their tree is safe". That kind of publicity/notoriety I can live without.

I was involved with the local FD about 2 & 1/2 years ago in cutting a large pine off of the windshield & roof of a car in Port Sydney, Ontario.
It broke off about 20' up during a violent storm and trapped the man and wife inside. Both survived, which was kind of a miracle in and of itself. (She had serious neck fractures, and his head actually popped up through the sunroof when the tree crushed the car.)

What does any of this have to do with the OP's tree?: Nothing really. It's just that my outlook on this thread has been jaundiced by seeing "The deadliest vegetation on the planet" meet it's Maker via wind and/or saturated soil plus gravity.
Scarce town/city funds might be better allocated in planting more trees for future generations to enjoy instead of performing facelifts and root canals on geriatric patients like Ole Faithful whose lifespan is gonna come to an eventual end sooner than later.

Would the OP or anybody here really feel confident if that tree was overhanging a kid's playground?

 

[treeseer]

Would the OP or anybody here really feel confident if that tree was overhanging a kid's playground?

Yes. Confidence intact. That tree stood up to 70 mph winds following the initial pruning.

How is a playground used <5 hours a day a higher target than Main Street and a US Highway? Your first post mentioned hapless motorists and pedestrians, now lil kids on a swingset, next what--a schoolbus full of blind orphans, all destined to win Nobel prizes? No matter what target you conjure, the confidence is the same. I only specified the initial pruning; the city's bucket brigade carried it out, and yes, quite well. :msp_smile:

I did followup pruning and a cable for free so let's not whinge about budgets. If billed it may have been ~$5-700, a drop in the municipal budget, so no more about waste, please, unless you think veteran trees are worthless. And no one hires me to manage their budgets--I'm just a tree guy, not an investment counselor. NOMB.

This tree may well be standing longer than any of us--unless your crystal balls are packing predictive power by being attuned into a divine wavelength! :cool2:
Seeing many failures may jaundice you, but they should also show more about how trees fail, so you can prevent it.

Del ol buddy, you want me in a new insurance pool because I work on old trees? What about the hacks who top and overraise and cut roots on mature trees--they're the ones whose premiums should get raised! In Raleigh the city crews go over, not through root systems. That ain't rocket surgery. :bang:

"As soon as you correct a potential problem a lawyer could twist that around as prior knowledge that a tree was dangerous and could fall. You lively hood is tied to the trees survival. "

Way exaggerated. Standards followed, livelihood secure. All trees could fail, and all lawyers can twist--and shout! (Shake it all baby now...) Attached re paranoia about liability (read what Pete Morris had to say), with another hollow (see palm roots) leaner, this time over US #1. That one also screwed up by sidewalk works, but still kickin.

re fearing the sidewalk crew will screw up the roots--already happened! They've been encouraged to prune no more--grinding and ramping is basic stuff.

SIDEWALK STRATEGIES

Reducing Infrastructure Damage by Tree Roots: A Compendium of Strategies was recently released by the International Society of Arboriculture. It was authored by University of California Cooperative Extension’s Larry Costello, who also wrote last year’s excellent Abiotic Disorders of Landscape Plants. Many strategies for resolving conflicts between mature trees and sidewalks, creatively merging the green infrastructure with the gray, are detailed in this book. In order of impact they are:

1. Remove old panels. Install a new sidewalk of packed stone, asphalt, pervious concrete or concrete curved away from buttress roots. (If concrete, reinforce with fiberglass rebar, wire mesh, or standard rebar)
2. Remove old panels. Bridge buttress roots with packed structural soil and sand under fabric. Install sections of recycled rubber, asphalt, bricks, pavers, pervious concrete or concrete above.
3. Leave heaved sidewalk in place and make the surface smoother by either
grinding down the lifted edges, making asphalt or concrete wedges or ramps, or both.
4. Remove old panels, prune roots, and install new panels at original grade.
This last option is still commonly done in North Carolina, with predictable results. Several historic trees in one town died soon after having major roots pruned. One root-pruned maple tree in another town toppled over and crushed a vehicle and its driver. It is clear that this treatment often shortens the safe useful life of trees. It’s time to find a better way.

Strategies #1-3 are ADA-compliant and often cost little more than #4. If you factor in tree removal and replacement expense, not to mention liability exposure, they cost far less. Specific engineering details and case studies are clearly presented, along with a list of material suppliers. Reducing Infrastructure Damage by Tree Roots is a goal we can all agree on, so this book is an important new tool for urban foresters. You can order it via International Society of Arboriculture or call 217-355-9411.

 

[KenJax Tree]

Trees are like fingerprints, no 2 are the same. If i think a tree is unsafe to leave standing and the owner don't want it removed i won't touch it i just tell em they gotta call someone else because im not gonna have the liability or regret if it falls and kills someone.

 

[Pelorus]

Knowing how trees fail can be very useful information to pack into your cranium, but humans are fragile things, and trees + gravity ain't respectors of human knowledge. They don't know, nor do they care what we know. You, and no one else on this earth knows when that tree is gonna come down if left to do so on it's own timing.
I hope it lasts several more decades. I hope that nobody ever gets injured or killed by it. You most certainly have a more vested interest in it's longevity than I do, and you are comfortable with your level of knowledge, experience that it will last and last and last. Good on ya.

The benchmark I use when providing an opinion about a client's tree that they are ambivalent about (not sure if they want to keep it or kill it) is whether I would feel comfortable having their tree on my property leaning over MY house, MY infrastructure, MY kids.

btw, I've seen trees stand up to high winds and subsequently fail later during fairly calm conditions. Makes you kinda wonder, doesn't it. How come the rotten bugger managed to survive so long when it was a decrepit wreck, and then it just gave up the ghost all of a sudden with no warning.....

 

[lxt]

Whats really disturbing here is "Seer" defending his work more so than recognizing a possible hazard/failure in the making, all that book knowledge dont mean anything its the reality of the situation & what the outcome will or may be! this is what you dont get!!!

You preach ANSI this ISA that & so on, My dear fellow tree man: you can justify your actions all you want the bottom line is if a tree you were in fails (not of storm) but of just natural circumstance & you were familiar with such & alerted the home owner of the prescence of a structural defect that is of a public hazard in the making & continued to provide service without correctiong the problem.....................#1 you are an ass #2 you will be liable & #3 Ansi & ISA wont help you cause you you breached the code of ethics & the law only cares about who, why, what, when, where

Maybe instead of guys like you & Murphy trying to convince everyone that you (2) are the best & that your methods have no wrongs in them, try being humble & seeing it from the points of view from a common sense perspective........SAFETY! ya know safety? the term that Murphy by-passes in his physical work & the same term you try to by-pass with the use of books, standards & other publications which have no legal authority but are used for reference or guidelines.

Seer I admire your passion, but detest your lack of common sense............perhaps that is a seminar you should attend (take Murphy with you).





LXT...............

 

[Gologit]

Would the OP or anybody here really feel confident if that tree was overhanging a kid's playground?

The OP might...but I wouldn't.

Treeseer...you can't save them all. It's not holy relic. It's a hazard. Dump it and start over.

 

[ddhlakebound]

This is gonna be unpopular with alot of you guys.....sorry, but it's straight up truth.

Does everyone who's saying this tree needs to go even realize that it's a historic 170 year old tree?

Do you realize that it's an Osage Orange? Have you ever seen an Osage Orange with a main stem failure? I have not.

Do you realize that Osage does not decay easily at all? Dead Osage posts can be found around here which have been in the ground for 50-60 years and are still solid. This is a living, compartmentalizing tree. Concerns of hollows and rot are inconsequential in Osage Orange. It's quite obvious that this tree has continued to add new wood on a consistent basis, just by looking at the basal flare of gnarled, outrageously strong wood growing on the tension side of the lean.

If this tree were to ever fail, I'd lay 10:1 odds that it would be a partial uproot. Risk to people is minimal with this tree, and risk to property is well within my acceptable parameters for this species in it's placement.

Just because you guys dislike or even hate TreeSeer, don't let yourselves get caught up in disagreeing with everything he says, just because he said it. Take the time to learn the whys, and maybe we'll be able to keep a few more historic, heritage trees like this one.

Summer 2011 TREE Fund Report: A Tree (Still) Grows in Kewanee | Tree Fund Summer 2011 TREE Fund Report: A Tree (Still) Grows in Kewanee | Tree Research & Education Endowment Fund

 

[Pelorus]

"Do you realize that it's an Osage Orange? Have you ever seen an Osage Orange with a main stem failure? I have not."

No, and no. Interesting to learn some background on the tree in question. I've got nothing against the OP. I don't know him from Adam. The pruning job undertaken looks first class, but the tree has overgrown it's alloted space, much like a big old turtle confined to a small aquarium. I imagine that going for a walk with the wife and having her getting clunked on the head by one of them historic inedible oranges would be a memorable and historic event.