Logger's escape route trees--Stressed dwarf minion Hemlock--Amazing!

[slowp]

Is it a given these trees will 'continue to be small' or do some continue to grow as a 'natural unsuppressed' tree once they receive their light? Also, if our forests were left to thrive NATURALLY, what would the dominant conifer species be, without the help [or harm] from man? My novice guess would be Douglas Fir, due to their awesome heights and strength and also the ability to grow thicker bark that protects them from fires [ie west of cascades conifers speaking].

It would depend on the micro site conditions. The shade tolerant species would become dominant if there are no disturbances--fire, wind, root rot, bugs, bears, etc.

Look up Early Seral and Late Seral species. There's your answer.

Studies show that stand replacement fires have and will occur on the wetside. It sounds similar to earthquakes in time. By the way, humans existed here before the Europeans arrived. They had a few fires that got away and there is one that got out of hand when they tried to use it against their enemies. That one was near Chehalis, I think.

As for suppressed trees making a growth spurt? Silviculturists say no. When we were thinning, those were cut.

 

[slabMan]

Thanks for your knowledge! That is interesting. "Silviculturists" a new word I learned as well!

 

[freeasaburt]

The "Stressed Dwarf/Minion Hemlock" trees only survive because they are being fed by the larger trees via the underground mycorrhizal(root fungus) network. Likely this arrangement evolved because it offers the advantage to the species of having ready to grow small trees when older trees die or are blown over.

The "Stressed Dwarf/Minion Hemlock" likely have identical genetics to the larger hemlock trees. It has been shown that the mycorrhizal network crosses the specie barrier.

As far as I know this feeding of the smaller trees by the larger trees is true of all trees.

Treebubba

Interesting!

Depending on the soil type, if left untouched forests here in Belgium and other Western-European countries tend to become dominated by beech (with some oak). This is because beech does exactly the same thing: young beech trees that don't get sufficient sunlight are provided with nutrients through the roots (+ the mycorrhizal network) of older trees with a big canopy.

Eventually you get these 'beech cathedrals', which are pretty beautiful. There's remnants (well, restored, not first growth) of the once massive beech forests here, e.g. close to Brussels; the original forest was dubbed "the coal forest" or "the coal burners' forest" by Julius Caesar ('Silva Carbonaria') because the local tribes cut down quite a lot of trees to turn into charcoal, to fuel their iron smelting furnaces.

 

[slabMan]

"Beech Cathedral" look similar to this?

 

[freeasaburt]

That's birch, but yeah somewhat similar to that; with bigger trees though, which are the 'pillars', with the canopy being the 'roof'.

This is a pic with beech trees, taken in the 'Soines forest' close to Brussels:




Another piece of beech forest, close to a place called Halle, is quite famous around here for the 'Bluebell' flowers covering the forest floor every year:

 

[Del_]

I believe those are Aspens, and have a rhizomatic root system.

Rhizomes are underground dormant or latent buds all along root system and any of they can become active if conditions are right. Hostas are a good example of a plant with rhizomes.

Stoloniferous root systems are on the surface and have dormant or latent buds on their roots and they can become active if conditions are right. Strawberries are a good example.

With both types of root system the sprouts formed are 'clones' of the parent plant, being genetically identical.

Or something like that.

There is a major difference between plants supported by underground root systems and plants(trees) supported by underground mycorrhizal networks.

 

[freeasaburt]

Ah ok, not familiar with American species really but looking at pictures online that might be aspen rather than (silver) birch indeed.

There doesn't seem to be a Dutch (or Flemish, the Belgian version of Dutch) word for Aspen, although all Aspen variants are of the Populus genus; I think we call all those poplar ('populier', e.g. Populus tremuloides we call 'Amerikaanse ratelpopulier', which translates as American 'trembling' or 'rattling' poplar; there's an indigenous species too, 'Populus Tremula', which we call just 'ratelpopulier'.)

 

[slabMan]

Ah ok, not familiar with American species really but looking at pictures online that might be aspen rather than (silver) birch indeed.

There doesn't seem to be a Dutch (or Flemish, the Belgian version of Dutch) word for Aspen, although all Aspen variants are of the Populus genus; I think we call all those poplar ('populier', e.g. Populus tremuloides we call 'Amerikaanse ratelpopulier', which translates as American 'trembling' or 'rattling' poplar; there's an indigenous species too, 'Populus Tremula', which we call just 'ratelpopulier'.)

That is the popular guess as Aspen, but they are actually Red Alder. These are not part of the Myco network, but they are "Nitrogen Fixing Trees" to complete the cycle I reckon. For some reason Red Alder have a nice "Aspen" or "Birch" look to them seemingly only around 800' and above in elevation. And the are Red Alder because when you gut them green, they have a Orange/Red dye in the wood.

 

[slabMan]

Beautiful

That's birch, but yeah somewhat similar to that; with bigger trees though, which are the 'pillars', with the canopy being the 'roof'.

This is a pic with beech trees, taken in the 'Soines forest' close to Brussels:

View attachment 1234168


Another piece of beech forest, close to a place called Halle, is quite famous around here for the 'Bluebell' flowers covering the forest floor every year:


View attachment 1234169

Awesome pics!

 

[slowp]

Red alder do not complete the cycle, they are the starters. The seed is lightweight and can travel. It seeds in after what we call a stand replacing disturbance has occurred, and there is an open space. Alder seeds in and starts the cycle all over. This is at the lower elevations of the wet sides of the Cascades. Alder fix nitrogen, providing nutrients for the also seeding in Doug-fir, which is also a pioneering, (early seral) species. Alder grows quickly but has a short lifespan and is overtaken by the Doug-fir.

It used to be considered a weed. Then cabinet makers discovered it and the market took off. Alder lumber can be stained to make it look like more expensive hardwoods. The trouble with alder is that it is prone to leaning and bending towards sunlight, as you can see in the picture and breaks easily under the gloppy snow of the region. It's tricky to cut as it barberchairs. I had a "sit down, we need to talk" when I mentioned cutting the snow bent trees out of the roads. It grows along road edges, because roads are openings.

 

[slabMan]

Red alder do not complete the cycle, they are the starters. The seed is lightweight and can travel. It seeds in after what we call a stand replacing disturbance has occurred, and there is an open space. Alder seeds in and starts the cycle all over. This is at the lower elevations of the wet sides of the Cascades. Alder fix nitrogen, providing nutrients for the also seeding in Doug-fir, which is also a pioneering, (early seral) species. Alder grows quickly but has a short lifespan and is overtaken by the Doug-fir.

It used to be considered a weed. Then cabinet makers discovered it and the market took off. Alder lumber can be stained to make it look like more expensive hardwoods. The trouble with alder is that it is prone to leaning and bending towards sunlight, as you can see in the picture and breaks easily under the gloppy snow of the region. It's tricky to cut as it barberchairs. I had a "sit down, we need to talk" when I mentioned cutting the snow bent trees out of the roads. It grows along road edges, because roads are openings.

I am definitely well aware of how dangerous Red Alder trees are due to their brittleness. Never attempt to fall an Alder with a dull chain. Dull chains cannot cut faster than the barbarchair movement. Borecuts for sure on the hard leaners, which most Alders are ---as you know. My point on the "birch/Aspen lookalikes was that Red alder appears more gray in the bark at sea level vs 800+ and above that appear White.

 

[freeasaburt]

Red alder do not complete the cycle, they are the starters. The seed is lightweight and can travel. It seeds in after what we call a stand replacing disturbance has occurred, and there is an open space. Alder seeds in and starts the cycle all over. This is at the lower elevations of the wet sides of the Cascades. Alder fix nitrogen, providing nutrients for the also seeding in Doug-fir, which is also a pioneering, (early seral) species. Alder grows quickly but has a short lifespan and is overtaken by the Doug-fir.

It used to be considered a weed. Then cabinet makers discovered it and the market took off. Alder lumber can be stained to make it look like more expensive hardwoods. The trouble with alder is that it is prone to leaning and bending towards sunlight, as you can see in the picture and breaks easily under the gloppy snow of the region. It's tricky to cut as it barberchairs. I had a "sit down, we need to talk" when I mentioned cutting the snow bent trees out of the roads. It grows along road edges, because roads are openings.

(Silver) birch is also a starter (a 'colonizing' species so to speak), which converts the soil so other tree species have more chances to sprout. Or at least here it is . They live in a 'mutualistic symbiosis' with soil fungi; if you want to move them, you need to keep a lot of the soil around there roots and if I'm not mistaken, it becomes impossible, or in any case very hard, after a certain age. Often you'll find 'fly agaric' (right translation? the red mushroom with white dots, in any case) in their vicinity.
Given the right circumstances, they can become quite big and old (100-150 years, or maybe more), but iirc the average lifespan is 60 years. I like it as firewood, couple of pieces of birch with a piece of oak on top gives nice heat from the stove. Cut up a really fat one 3 years ago, a storm took it down... Enjoying its heat now .

 

[slabMan]

Red alder do not complete the cycle, they are the starters. The seed is lightweight and can travel. It seeds in after what we call a stand replacing disturbance has occurred, and there is an open space. Alder seeds in and starts the cycle all over. This is at the lower elevations of the wet sides of the Cascades. Alder fix nitrogen, providing nutrients for the also seeding in Doug-fir, which is also a pioneering, (early seral) species. Alder grows quickly but has a short lifespan and is overtaken by the Doug-fir.

It used to be considered a weed. Then cabinet makers discovered it and the market took off. Alder lumber can be stained to make it look like more expensive hardwoods. The trouble with alder is that it is prone to leaning and bending towards sunlight, as you can see in the picture and breaks easily under the gloppy snow of the region. It's tricky to cut as it barberchairs. I had a "sit down, we need to talk" when I mentioned cutting the snow bent trees out of the roads. It grows along road edges, because roads are openings.

Do you know how to id the "host tree" for the myco? Any correlation between that "bearded lichen" on 2nds, or can the host be located under a big patch of fern moss?

 

[slowp]

The trees are seeded. They don't sprout. Gotta go way back in my brain for mycorrhizae but I do recall that it is part of the makeup of the soils, not the tree. Think fungus and how it gloms onto things.

Here's a paper on the relationship with DF.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378112709003351

Bearded lichen? You mean the moss that grows on the bark?

 

[slabMan]

I know you can see the white spider web Myco network, but I Know my Chanterelles love 2nd Sprucies and Dfir as Chanterelles are of the myco, same with Boletes and the myco shrooms have to have a host tree or they will not grow. I call it Bearded lichen because it looks like the trunk of Hemlocks grow longer gray beards, b seems the be the dominant lichen on older and some diseased Hemlocks and other conifers but nevermind that--lol. I just wondered if there is a visible sign or thing to look for to know if there is a host tree, otherwise, no chanterelles shrooms will grow. It seems the Chanterelles sprout in areas with hight off road traffic and they almost seem like a Myco network repair fungus, some even sprout in the middle of the logging roads. I have lawn sized patches of "feather moss" or "fern moss"3" thick and if I look underneath the big patches, it almost looks like someone sprayed white spray paint mist under ---big network.

 

[slabMan]

(Silver) birch is also a starter (a 'colonizing' species so to speak), which converts the soil so other tree species have more chances to sprout. Or at least here it is . They live in a 'mutualistic symbiosis' with soil fungi; if you want to move them, you need to keep a lot of the soil around there roots and if I'm not mistaken, it becomes impossible, or in any case very hard, after a certain age. Often you'll find 'fly agaric' (right translation? the red mushroom with white dots, in any case) in their vicinity.
Given the right circumstances, they can become quite big and old (100-150 years, or maybe more), but iirc the average lifespan is 60 years. I like it as firewood, couple of pieces of birch with a piece of oak on top gives nice heat from the stove. Cut up a really fat one 3 years ago, a storm took it down... Enjoying its heat now .

Laughing right now at the "red and white" or 'Santa clause' colored Fly Agaric hallucinating shroom that does sprout out of the 100% 'lawn of fernmoss' along with some other Myco 'host tree' minion shrooms. I am laughing because I recently studied the effects of that particular active ingredient in the Aminita Muscaria [muscimol] that works the GABA system if ingested vs serotonin/dopamine with psilocybin. I did not know that the Viking Shamans ate those mushrooms 'back in the day'., but the Shamans had to 'take one for the team [village]' and endure the toxic ibotenic acid side effects, however, they soon started to feed the shrooms to the Reindeer and waited for their need to pee, and the villagers were literally collecting the piss from the Reindeer [and Shamans] as it provided the active psychedelic ingredient, but filtered the toxic IB acid filtered by the kidneys. So it went from Red and White shroom, reindeer acting drunk, the shaman looking like Santa Clause, the reindeer pulling shamans sled, people having a good festive trip and supposedly, that is how Rudolph and Santa, REd Green, White colors of xmas happened...why DOES it seem that all the cool old classic kids shows were spawned from trippy drugs! [lol not all but Alice in wonderland things appear giant [macropsia] Poppies, "sleep, sleep!" in Wiz of oz, then Glenda [the good witch] shows up with some white powdery substance and snows on the Dorothy's entourage and peps them up and away they go off to see the wiz. WILLY WONKA was on another planet! FUNNY Sh&^
I also know that Chanterelles are special because they cannot be cultivated commercially and need a host tree. It is really cool stuff to me at least and gives me an even bigger respect for the countless organisms who are battling the forest floors and other places [most often in "path of least resistance" fashion] every single second!
Maybe I was off but I seemed to catch a bit of skeptism from SLOwP on whether suppressed dwarf trees ever become normal giants and I would be as well. It just seems to counter what nature had in store for these living things and making them permanent dwarfs seems like such a ripoff after they have been waiting for so long for light! Jury may still be out on that theory and perhaps it allows the foresters behind the "economics" [SlowP mentioned] a way for them to justify thinning these trees...I would feel guilty and a little rubbed wrong if I pulled the plug on a little tree that is older than dirt so I would want to come up with a gas lit talking point or theory so people cannot just blame greed/economics for the thinning. IMHO. [Kinda like why we loggers seemingly are always having to explain why diseased trees or just old growth trees sometimes need to come down so other younger trees can thrive and that loggers are not a detriment to our "decimated forests" so the people who hate anyone cutting a tree can maybe look at the big picture of things. Those people seem to have good noble intentions and a good heart, but that "heart seems to get in the way of their brains when it comes to logical thought. We just cannot have the proverbial inmates [father time related disease, insects, toxic fungi, etc. running the asylum [forests]. In all reality, most loggers or arborists are huge supporters for our earth and forests. Same can be said for my hunting buddy's who love and respect the environment and wildlife, nature more than the passive aggressive finger pointers. Same for the respect they have for their firearms and hunting rifles and discipline for safety...Considering there are a lot of 'questionable' characters out there--glad they know the "unwritten Manlaws" as well! Yal try to kick some more ass today! Be Safe!
Here are some punky versions of what I thing were former dwarf Hemolock trees...To me, very unusual to see a very dark heartwood and especially missing like in some of these sticks.

20" Hemlock round

 

[freeasaburt]

Didn't know about that Fly Agaric theory/hypothesis, pretty interesting though!
Also found this https://arstechnica.com/science/201...ave-used-henbane-to-induce-trance-like-state/ .

Santa Claus isn't really celebrated here, although the figure is used a lot commercially, in ads etc. Saint Nicholas ('Sinterklaas') brings presents on the 6th of december though; there's also quite some elements of pre-christian, i.e. pagan cultures in that tradition though, for example where it comes to his helper Black Pete (nowadays called 'Sooty Pete' because the 19th century interpretation as a 'black servant' was perceived as racist).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Origins

This is a typical consequence of the tendency to incorporate (local) pagan elements into christianity, to facilitate christianisation. The presence of pagan iconography in Stave churches, almost exclusively found in Norway, is another example of that trend.