Long Lanyards ?

[TheTreeSpyder]

Does anyone else 'Koala Bear' from under a limb to clean the outreaches, using the tension of the lifeline to keep you in check from going any further back, as your body weight positively locks against the line back. In the right conditions, pushing across with medium leg pressure serves to arc you up on the arc of life line extension range at given length. whereby a shorter length from you to support, creates a sharper arcing up, when pushing sideways.

Observing the function of the line tightness and line arc when forced yet restricted by line into arc with my body; si how i visualized and evolved to self tightening rigs, aarcing loads under them, for the line restriction kept them from going straight down.

A lot of my observations are from the point of gymnsastics and climbing in that; i can feel the forces on a rigged load, for i have been a rigged load. i can think well when climbing, swinging that will pull me that way, and turn and feel the twist.

Taking this a step further, any lesson learned in one is looked for the parallel in the other, to expand more with each input and confirm/question running hypothesis. o look at the 2 subjects as one, and feed into and out of a shared pool of knowledge, rather than 2 seperate stacks.

i try to make that extra effort, to dig to the common links/ understandings. Some cast that that is too much energy wasted etc. But i see it as being a lil'lazy; for taking understandings to the next level of understanding where things confirm and reinforce each other, really to me grants much more for the effort. KInda learning about levers with leverage or something!

Many times not taking my chosen war tools with me, confined my growth and power. There was extra weight and i took it on as a commitment to carry it till it was nothing. i do realize the diffrence when unloading belt sometimes; but for me the price of that, has not been to high! i choke about everything with loop runners, my journey in this has brought me to test/screech out best load hitch points etc. by presetting /considering while line is on ground, or hanging 4 and thinking about each as ytou are working res one at a time. They are to me a universal, flexable, proffessionally clean, productive way to go. i might use them for a dozen things.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Brian,
Reread what I wrote. I think you might have read something into it. I was comparing climbing styles, in particular, in types of trees, and how the tool is used. I made no mention of climbing abilities, yet you and John took it as an insult, somehow.
Lots of guys climb with short lanyards, probably most guys. It has to be the best. I was just giving my observations.
Could you discribe your lanyard and it's length and components to me? That goes for anyone.

 

[treeclimber165]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
I can't imagine climbing with a short lanyard, it would totally limit the maneuvers a guy can use in the tree.
There seem to be two camps with different climbing styles, one who leave the lanyard clipped to the side and basicly only use it as a safety or spiking up a spar. These guys will use short, thick, three strand or wire core lanyards with steel clips. To picture their style think of climbing a pine, hang only off the climbing line, and use the lanyard only when the boss is looking as a saftey.
Then there is the second camp, they keep a long lanyard attached in the front or design it so it can be moved there easily. When they climb, use the lanyard as a double crotch, often advancing it out in the direction the climber needs to travel, like to the end of a long horizontal branch, to the tree just 10 feet away, or up to a limb which is not in line with his climbing rope. This style climber works trees that are often wider than tall.

A large portion of my climbing is in trees wider than tall. I hate pines- they are like sappy telephone poles with limbs. For most of the maneuvers where you need your second tie-in, I simply use my balance, my single lifeline, momentum and the natural skills that God graced me with. I do not find it necessary to double crotch very often and I bet I can get around those spread out trees just a little faster than someone messing with double tie-ins. I am not trying to brag. I was blessed with a fairly good natural 'feel' for climbing. I never pursued indoor rock climbing because I topped every run on the advanced wall in less than 2 hours my second trip there. I am not 'limited' in my maneuvers by using a short lanyard.
A 30' lanyard (should be called a second lifeline) is very helpful for people with more knowledge than natural ability. If you are unable to climb out that limb without it, by all means use it. I'll be waiting on the tips.

My lanyards are not thick, steel core or adorned with heavy steel clips. I have an 8' Blue Streak lanyard with alum. clip.

 

[geofore]

where is groundman

You talk as if you work without a groundman or you can't tie a continuous loop and signal the grounman to send up what you need when you need it. What is your groundman doing, sitting on his hands. Independence is one thing but you fail to acknowledge your groundman or that he knows the equipment well enough to send it up to you if you need it. What, you yell lanyard and he sends up a polesaw, you say carbinner and he sends a clevis? I don't see the need to carry everything up with you if the ground crew knows how and what to send up when you call for it.

Why can't you lay out what you will need and tell your ground man what it is and when you expect to need it so he can pull it up to you when you call for it. This is a team effort to get the tree done and I would expect the groundman to be a part of the team. You don't even acknowledge that you have or need a groundman or that he can help once you are heading into the tree. You carry everything you need with you and don't need anyone else.: end of rant.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Look at this drawing(crude). The climber is on the lower branch and needs to stop and do some work the spots where the circles are. With a long lanyard, he could fly out to the tip, safety in and work back, now double crotched in.

 

[tophopper]

Mike- i was not personally insulted by your post, but it does read as if your saying one with a longer lanyard is a more proficient and safe climber than one with a short lanyard. But anyway, not trying to butt heads with you, youve responded well with your drawing of the tree with circled work areas. Even with a short lanyard I would fly out to the tips, buck in when needed, and work back. Your pic shows a high central TIP which we all know is ideal for limb walking.
Ive reattached the same pic, i see the advantage a longer lanyard would benefit in a larger tree. It would be useful to get from either position marked A to get to position B without having to return to the trunk descend down and walk out. This could also be done by, using your tail end, or using a redirect. A redirect must either be retrieved when finished, or left and retrieved when untieing from TIP.
I know the drawing is rough and far from scale, but it almost appears as if the tree were that big you would benefit more from using a double tie utilizing your tail end because a short 30ft lanyard is really only useful to half that length.

you have inspired me to be more open minded on the subject.
Ive decided to field test a longer lanyard again. Especially on larger trees, but with the variety of work that I do i can not see always having a 30 footer with me. just seems would be too much most of the time.

my current lanyard is made from XTC, I spliced alum. snaps on both ends. Is tied with a 3 up 2 down distal, the tail runs thru the d ring and the dring acts as the tender. The 3 up 2 down distal provides enough friction both ways to function both ways thereby giving me a double ended lanyard. i rarely use both ends though, because I usually SRT on larger trees anyway.

Personally, as far as the rest of what i carry on my saddle;
handsaw, 2 redirects, tres cord, sm fig 8, and 2-3 balllock biners.
After an SRT ascent, I will be also carrying a petzl ascension, and rope man ascender. I also carry a knife(look out Brian ).
Add a chainsaw and lanyard to the mix and Im getting pretty full up on gear.
Then add slings, pulleys , biners for technical rigging sometimes I think i need to wear 2 saddles to carry everything

 

[tophopper]

ooops, heres the attachment i mentioned

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i'd say longer leash gave more options than short at a cost of carrying it.

sometimes i just pass a bight of slack lifleine through crotch, and karab loosely to saddle.

in Tops pic, there are poits where a lifeline so tight would arc you up as you pushed directly away from Support, sometimes this sideways push and leveraging your line is easir than wlaking straight up against gravity.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I took John's idea one step farther and labeled the circles 1 to 11. Each number represents an spot where the climber must safety in and do one or more tasks.
I numbered them in the order I would work this tree. See what you think.

To help understand the long lanyard use, imagine the position the climber's in now. I would advance to position number 5, safety in, do my work, then with one hand lengthen my lanyard to position 6 and work that spot. Then I could move to number 7 by lengthening or re-clipping depending on the situation.

Imagine being on number 6 or 7 and having to do some polesaw work. A short lanyard could only be at your feet, not helping much with balance.

 

[mikecross23]

Ditto to Dan's statement. I use the distel setup for my main life support and for double crotching I carry an extra biner and just use the tail of my life line with a blake's hitch. Works great for me b/c I still have my short lanyard. Tomorrow I have 3 decent sized live oaks to do some minor deadwooding to. Should be good stuff if the weather holds up!

-Mike-

 

[BigJohn]

I am not a big fan of big lanyards. They have their place when butting down big wood but have no place for prunning. I rarely use a lanyard. The only real need for one is when your getting tied in or recrotching. If you need a lanyard that long then I believe you need to start thinking of a better way. Get some balance, improve your strength and learn the 3 point stance.

I was just recently given a length of rope a snap and two thimbles. The rope had to be 20 feet long and he wanted me to make a lanyard for him. I had to call him back and ask how many lanyards he wanted me to make with all this rope. His thinking is that if he cuts one end he can flip it around. My thinking if you cut one end get rid of it and get a new one. It's only rope.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Bigjon,
I assume you're tugging at my chain, but in case you're not...

Refer to the drawing, you need to work at number 5 or 6. You don't use a lanyard?

http://arboristsite.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=80941

 

[treeclimber165]

I'd do it like almost every tree I climb. I'd start at the top and hit 1, 2, 3 and 4. Then I'd drop down and use 8, 7 and 6 as footholds/ steps on my way out to 5. Lanyard in at 5 and cut. Drop back down to hit 6, 7 and 8. Then get a good swing out to 10, use it as a step to lanyard in at the fork and cut 9. Then cut 10 and swing back to the trunk and drop down to 11. Parachute rapel to the ground and toast my tres cord. Smile.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i use lanyard religiously for failsafe working. Also for anti sway function on end of long arc of main support lifeline. Also nice V pocket betwixt the 2 to sit in sometimes. Round turn with it and you don't need a crotch as a positive mechanical stop on support.

On pic,

i might.......

Put extra auxilary support line above 2, 5 in inverted U( or less friciton support, just 5)

Hit 8,7 maybe using auxilary line to V, especially with belay, run write out there!

Hit 4,1 Maybe leave line at 4-9

Auxillary line from 2 or 5 gives 6,

Get belay help to 5 if needed, self or ground,

Maintain weight on main lifeline, share enough to influence your support/direction to auxilary with auxilary.

Plot if i can pendulumn from betwixt 7-8 to betwixt 10-11, how much extra would it take to get to ~10+, could extra draw of auxilary at 4-9 add enough distance or stall for me to get handhold or lanyard (i like carrying it over my right shoulder, raise my hand shoulder high, palm open like i'm giving up, and flick it with my finger and send it boomeranging around spar and back to left hand) on, maybe even crotch 9? Can i get run, throw massive bodyweight and immense high weight of chest forward to add to force for sweep? Am i slick enough to push off trunk as i go by? Mmmmmmm how much drag can those guys give me on that auxillary line....... oi get my legs hooked around her and not too much tightness on my lifeline she's mine, ican throw chest forward and stick long enogh to wrap lanyard, or trow into crotch, especially with auxilary line helping that should all stack up.....

 

[rahtreelimbs]

This thread is more informative that I ever thought it would be!



Thanx for all the great replies. .....Please keep them coming.

 

[murphy4trees]

Big Jon ain't lying or tugging chains and I've got the video tape to prove it... He always caries a lanyard, but when pruning rarely uses it, as he prunes almost exclusively with a hand saw... He's done some amazing (in my thinking) climbing moves, 3 point stance style, and rarely leans on his rope. First time I ever saw someone adjust the friction hitch with his feet as he used both arms to pull up to a new position... (got that on tape too).
Just watching him climb a couple of times has made a big difference in my climbing style... Now that I know what is possible... I can give it a try myself...
So thanks Jon for expanding my world....
PS.. Are you ever gonna let these guys in on the Turner Twist or is that proprietary info...
I gave them a hint in the knut hitch thread but no takers http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=8093...

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

It sounds like Big John and Brian have similar climbing styles, and it works for them. That's what I was getting at when I talked about two different camps. One camp tries not to use ropes, the other tries to always use ropes. Not that one is better than the other, or both can't be used.
At the climbing competitions they want you to saftey in at each work station, to me that makes sense and is what I shoot for. It's also an ansi requirment.
As far as working with your handsaw with out safetying in, I think that falls into the same catagory as one handed chiansawing, ascending a tree with one rope(free climbing), or other questionable techniques. I try to play by the rules and I'm not slow by anyones standards. I also have a family, home, and other thing I don't want to lose because of risks taken at work.
So trust me, when someone tells me they don't safety in, it doesn't impress me. Orphans and widows, right Tom.

 

[treeclimber165]

Mike-
You seem to be changing the theme here. Your original assertation was that the long lanyard helped you get around the tree and people who didn't use a long lanyard were limited in their maneuverability. Safetying in was not the issue. I usually do not need a second tie-in to maneuver my way around but I safety in with my lanyard whenever I'm running a chainsaw near my lifeline. These are completely different topics and you might confuse people by swapping back and forth in the same thread.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I didn't switch Big Jon and murphy talked about working without a safety. Now you seem to insinuate that you only safety in "whenever I'm running a chainsaw near my lifeline". So my comments seemed appropriate.

When I argueed that a long lanyard offered more options than a short one, you guys said I was wrong because you can just bring up the tail of your rope, find a tres cord, 2 carabinners, and a fair lead pulley, and set up a double crotch. That's doing the same thing, just with a slightly different tool.

Brian you kinda glossed over my question about working at number 5 and 6. It's a good illistration of what I'm talking about, you can clearly see the advantage of a double crotch in those spots. Just moving from 5 to 6 and not having to unclip and be vulnerable to a fall and swing into the tree.

We both did the tree in the same order, didn't we?

 

[BigJohn]

There are situations where I wouldn't just walk up to 5 and 6 and keep my original tie in or not lanyard in. In most cases though I do not. I too have a family, chilldren and home. I've done a lot of crazy things in my past and too a lot of chances with my life. I can remember a time I would visit the ER regularly.

There are many ways of doing what we do not any one thing is right. I too at one time liked a long lanyard. From working with others and picking up new techniques I've come to not rely on it as much. I'm just comfortable with what I am doing. I find if I don't put much thought into it it will come natural.

Big John