Looking for Soft Dutchman against the Lean Video

[northmanlogging]

The pool ball is just an analogy of gravity but we'll still use it in what your picturing, the table has 3 legs, the side of the table where the pool ball starts rolling from never changes height, which is the hinge of the tree, the ball will roll to the low side of the table, meanwhile you cut off one of the far side legs, the table drops & the ball arcs around to the new line of fall, it cannot pass backwards along its path to beyond where it started from as that is a fixed height & doesn't change. Even if you were hold the table on one one leg & tilt your opposite down & to the side the ball will always hit the ground between you & the support of the table.
Fanski

I'm definitely wasting my time here, but have you ever swung a rope or a piece of chain around, it defies gravity yes, if yer really cool and wear a 10 gallon hat you can even dance around it and catch moo cows or wild injuns (ahem racist)...

Any way the point is you build momentum, you can't just "magically" have the rope flip straight up in the air, you have to start at the bottom, redirect its natural gravity, once it starts going more or less where you want it to go, you just make sure to help it along a little, essentially this is all a soft dutch is, that first cut the deepest dutch is to get the tree to start leaning towards where you would like it to go, the rest of the progressive steps merely encourage it to keep going. the hold wood is basically your wrist the hand and rope pivot around the wrist. Once it starts to move you just have to keep nipping away the back cut to continue with the movement, as you nip it away it gains speed and momentum, then at the optimum point (assuming you haven't ran away screaming) you sever the rest of the hold wood stopping the swing to some extent and launching the tree off the stump, much like an old style sling shot (that mean hebrew boy and the unfortunate sasquatch kind).

Unlike a rope the tree is straight up, and we can let gravity do most of the work for us, just have to get that initial lean going a different direction. Hence the massive dutched face cut, you really do cut way past the 30% that GOL crap has taught everyone and go until the ******* sags, not so much as to pinch yer saw real bad but just enough to change the ballance of the tree, the rest is just stair steps to ease it on around.

The other hang up you seem to have is the hold wood, or tension wood, the hold wood is always perpendicular to the intended lay, it remains tension wood but the tree will bend from one direction to the other, constantly pulling on that tension wood. Once you have that first fat dutch, the lean has already changed, its just a matter of continuing that change all the way around.

When its all said and done most of the off side hold wood will be gone, leaving anywhere from 1/2 to sometimes less then 1/4 of the diameter for hold wood in the near side. Both allowing the tree to change its lean and simultaneously pivot around the remaining hold wood.

 

[056kid]

A lot of them have gone quiet though after my last explanation, some light bulbs may have flickered out there.
Tanski

We went quiet because you're too ******* dumb to talk at....

 

[Woos31]

The proof of what I'm saying is in all the videos I have seen, the tree hits the ground no more than 90' to the hinge & line across the butt, sure it may peel & turn off the stump, the back cut prevents a lot of it, now if you were to do the same cuts above the back cut on the far side that would give it a really good spinning motion, we'll call it the ultra double soft Dutchman with a twist if it works!
Fanks

Well you're right again cuz the idea is for a tree to fall where you aim it which would be 90* to you hinge. In the videos they fall close to 90* of the hinge across the stump yes, but that's also 180* to the lean which is what they wanted to happen proving possible to accomplish. So I'm not following now about how it isn't possible because you always want a tree to come off the hinge generally at 90* unless you're swinging it from the lean around to a new lay between 90* and 180* opposite the lean. Also not sure what the argument has moved to now

 

[Woos31]

I'm definitely wasting my time here, but have you ever swung a rope or a piece of chain around, it defies gravity yes, if yer really cool and wear a 10 gallon hat you can even dance around it and catch moo cows or wild injuns (ahem racist)...

Any way the point is you build momentum, you can't just "magically" have the rope flip straight up in the air, you have to start at the bottom, redirect its natural gravity, once it starts going more or less where you want it to go, you just make sure to help it along a little, essentially this is all a soft dutch is, that first cut the deepest dutch is to get the tree to start leaning towards where you would like it to go, the rest of the progressive steps merely encourage it to keep going. the hold wood is basically your wrist the hand and rope pivot around the wrist. Once it starts to move you just have to keep nipping away the back cut to continue with the movement, as you nip it away it gains speed and momentum, then at the optimum point (assuming you haven't ran away screaming) you sever the rest of the hold wood stopping the swing to some extent and launching the tree off the stump, much like an old style sling shot (that mean hebrew boy and the unfortunate sasquatch kind).

Unlike a rope the tree is straight up, and we can let gravity do most of the work for us, just have to get that initial lean going a different direction. Hence the massive dutched face cut, you really do cut way past the 30% that GOL crap has taught everyone and go until the ******* sags, not so much as to pinch yer saw real bad but just enough to change the ballance of the tree, the rest is just stair steps to ease it on around.

The other hang up you seem to have is the hold wood, or tension wood, the hold wood is always perpendicular to the intended lay, it remains tension wood but the tree will bend from one direction to the other, constantly pulling on that tension wood. Once you have that first fat dutch, the lean has already changed, its just a matter of continuing that change all the way around.

When its all said and done most of the off side hold wood will be gone, leaving anywhere from 1/2 to sometimes less then 1/4 of the diameter for hold wood in the near side. Both allowing the tree to change its lean and simultaneously pivot around the remaining hold wood.

Good splainin Northman, not many more ways to prove it can be done and with video even............makes my head hurt lol

 

[hseII]

I'm definitely wasting my time here, but have you ever swung a rope or a piece of chain around, it defies gravity yes, if yer really cool and wear a 10 gallon hat you can even dance around it and catch moo cows or wild injuns (ahem racist)...

Any way the point is you build momentum, you can't just "magically" have the rope flip straight up in the air, you have to start at the bottom, redirect its natural gravity, once it starts going more or less where you want it to go, you just make sure to help it along a little, essentially this is all a soft dutch is, that first cut the deepest dutch is to get the tree to start leaning towards where you would like it to go, the rest of the progressive steps merely encourage it to keep going. the hold wood is basically your wrist the hand and rope pivot around the wrist. Once it starts to move you just have to keep nipping away the back cut to continue with the movement, as you nip it away it gains speed and momentum, then at the optimum point (assuming you haven't ran away screaming) you sever the rest of the hold wood stopping the swing to some extent and launching the tree off the stump, much like an old style sling shot (that mean hebrew boy and the unfortunate sasquatch kind).

Unlike a rope the tree is straight up, and we can let gravity do most of the work for us, just have to get that initial lean going a different direction. Hence the massive dutched face cut, you really do cut way past the 30% that GOL crap has taught everyone and go until the ******* sags, not so much as to pinch yer saw real bad but just enough to change the ballance of the tree, the rest is just stair steps to ease it on around.

The other hang up you seem to have is the hold wood, or tension wood, the hold wood is always perpendicular to the intended lay, it remains tension wood but the tree will bend from one direction to the other, constantly pulling on that tension wood. Once you have that first fat dutch, the lean has already changed, its just a matter of continuing that change all the way around.

When its all said and done most of the off side hold wood will be gone, leaving anywhere from 1/2 to sometimes less then 1/4 of the diameter for hold wood in the near side. Both allowing the tree to change its lean and simultaneously pivot around the remaining hold wood.

Props for being able to tie David & Goliath into into a thread about Felling against the lean.

Cudo's.

#ProudtoNotBeFromPhilistine

 

[Bwildered]

Well you're right again cuz the idea is for a tree to fall where you aim it which would be 90* to you hinge. In the videos they fall close to 90* of the hinge across the stump yes, but that's also 180* to the lean which is what they wanted to happen proving possible to accomplish. So I'm not following now about how it isn't possible because you always want a tree to come off the hinge generally at 90* unless you're swinging it from the lean around to a new lay between 90* and 180* opposite the lean. Also not sure what the argument has moved to now

If the tree was going 180' to lean then the saw would pinch before completing the back cut, the lean is basically along the direction of the CS bar cutting the back cut, once the back & front cuts overlap on the opposite side of the tuft of hinge, it pinches the tip of the bar, that shows where the lean actually is. All going well there I little bit of lean in the direction the tree needs to go in, starting it off in that direction, as far as I can see it's nothing that couldn't be done with a conventional cut with a tapering hinge, if it didn't go over it would just sit back on the wedge you'd have in the back cut as a safety, a couple of taps on the wedge, take the saw out, a couple more taps on the wedge & it's over.
Transki

 

[bigbarf48]

If I understand correctly, you are in OZ. No matter; should you find yourself here in the PNW, look me up. I'll show you how possible it is to swing a tall tree way further than common sense suggests is possible. It's all about leverage and momentum. That invitation stands until I am physically unable to run a saw. It is a thing that I have done successfully many times and also screwed up royally many times.

I think this is the key here: MOMENTUM. A tree rolling around, even slightly, carries an incredible amount of weight and momentum. This momentum can push it farther than gravity alone would pull it

 

[Bwildered]

If I understand correctly, you are in OZ. No matter; should you find yourself here in the PNW, look me up. I'll show you how possible it is to swing a tall tree way further than common sense suggests is possible. It's all about leverage and momentum. That invitation stands until I am physically unable to run a saw. It is a thing that I have done successfully many times and also screwed up royally many times.

Thanks for the offer, before marriage I'd done a couple trips up & down the west coast from LA through to BC & inland to the high sierras Jasper, Vancouver island, very nice country, I grew up in steep country & have one leg longer than the other as a result of it. There has been talk at the dinner table about doing a trip to BC because they haven't been there, which is only hop skip & a jump from your neck of the woods, so if I'm over that way I would jump at the opportunity to escape from the family holiday madness.
Thansk

 

[bitzer]

Alright Reggie you've almost got it. Saw lean into the tree and she'll lean out. Causing momentum because of gravity. Hold wood keeps it on the stump and is the axis for which the butt rotates. Every kerf causes the tree to lean even more because the top moves by so many feet. Remember -opposite of wedging. Top move by so many feet when lifted with wedges, it also moves by so many feet when wood is removed. You almost had it a year ago too.

You're right it is easier to put a single kerf Dutchman in and pound a wedge to get it to come around but that's not what we're talking about. It's not really a practical cut and you really need room for it to work.

Watch my video again. Watch the kerfs in relation to where I'm removing wood. I start in the back and realize if I continue cutting the back I will lose the tree over backwards. That's why I cut more of the hinge away in the front so the tree can lean out and start to fall into the first kerf. Once the tree has sat down and somewhat out I can start in on the back again. I have used gravity for momentum and the strength of the remaining holding wood to keep it on the stump.

 

[Bwildered]

Alright Reggie you've almost got it. Saw lean into the tree and she'll lean out. Causing momentum because of gravity. Hold wood keeps it on the stump and is the axis for which the butt rotates. Every kerf causes the tree to lean even more because the top moves by so many feet. Remember -opposite of wedging. Top move by so many feet when lifted with wedges, it also moves by so many feet when wood is removed. You almost had it a year ago too.

You're right it is easier to put a single kerf Dutchman in and pound a wedge to get it to come around but that's not what we're talking about. It's not really a practical cut and you really need room for it to work.

Watch my video again. Watch the kerfs in relation to where I'm removing wood. I start in the back and realize if I continue cutting the back I will lose the tree over backwards. That's why I cut more of the hinge away in the front so the tree can lean out and start to fall into the first kerf. Once the tree has sat down and somewhat out I can start in on the back again. I have used gravity for momentum and the strength of the remaining holding wood to keep it on the stump.

Did you notice where & what angle your tuft of hinge which was left in relation to the line of fall, near 90' to that tuft that was on the uphill side of the lean of a fairly balanced tree, you must have cut away 90% of it before it fell over & it never pinched your saw at anytime which shows that.
Tranks

 

[northmanlogging]

If the tree was going 180' to lean then the saw would pinch before completing the back cut, the lean is basically along the direction of the CS bar cutting the back cut, once the back & front cuts overlap on the opposite side of the tuft of hinge, it pinches the tip of the bar, that shows where the lean actually is. All going well there I little bit of lean in the direction the tree needs to go in, starting it off in that direction, as far as I can see it's nothing that couldn't be done with a conventional cut with a tapering hinge, if it didn't go over it would just sit back on the wedge you'd have in the back cut as a safety, a couple of taps on the wedge, take the saw out, a couple more taps on the wedge & it's over.
Transki

Yer almost there when the tip gets pinched, its expected, but by then the tree is moving and if you did things right the saw will be released and you can continue cutting, creating more and more speed as it goes.

 

[Bwildered]

If I'm istarting to talk more jibberish than normal it's because I've had a full day cutting, snigging & sawmilling, a parrot came down & had lunch with me to make my afternoon a little brighter.
Tanks

 

[bitzer]

View attachment 511973
Did you notice where & what angle your tuft of hinge which was left in relation to the line of fall, near 90' to that tuft that was on the uphill side of the lean of a fairly balanced tree, you must have cut away 90% of it before it fell over & it never pinched your saw at anytime which shows that.
Tranks

I had the wedge in the back just to keep the kerf open. Without the wedge keeping the kerf open the tree would have sat back and not moved at all. The tree was pretty well balanced. The stem lean was roughly 180 to the lay, but the top had just enough weight on one side to encourage favorable movement. The harder the tree is leaning or the more top heavy it is limits how far you can swing the tree.

 

[Woos31]

If the tree was going 180' to lean then the saw would pinch before completing the back cut, the lean is basically along the direction of the CS bar cutting the back cut, once the back & front cuts overlap on the opposite side of the tuft of hinge, it pinches the tip of the bar, that shows where the lean actually is. All going well there I little bit of lean in the direction the tree needs to go in, starting it off in that direction, as far as I can see it's nothing that couldn't be done with a conventional cut with a tapering hinge, if it didn't go over it would just sit back on the wedge you'd have in the back cut as a safety, a couple of taps on the wedge, take the saw out, a couple more taps on the wedge & it's over.
Transki

Yes sir you're correct again, that's why you have to cut the opposite side in one of the first few cuts before the back cut. Example..........I would make my first cut being horizontal to establish the depth 1/3 diameter for hinge wood the direction I want the tree to go, in this case completely opposite of lean. I would work the tip around the off side cutting deeper toward the back to release that side, otherwise like you said it would bite my bar and that would be the end of it. Cut 2 would be the undercut with a Humboldt so when it starts coming around gravity is helping the butt sit and roll down the opposite edge of the face and the extra kerf cuts (cuts 3,4, and maybe 5). This is where the swing/roll really gets happening as the momentum and gravity changes as the tree simultaneously leans 90* to natural lean which is away from me. I then start cut 6 which is back cut and it begins on far side first and carefully releasing as to allow the tree to start leaning away from me and working around releasing more as that would has changed from compression would with the natural lean to now being tension wood as gravity has helped me change weight distribution and lean with no wood holding up the weight now transfering 90* to natural lean, and the extra cuts I made each shallower than the one above it compress letting the butt sit on the opposite edge of the stump and build momentum. The extra cuts are now totally compressed giving the spiral staircase affect as the butt rolls down that opposite edge and I release more wood from the back, the new tension/hinge point is on my side of the stump and say the last 1/4 which is how so much momentum is being built to allow for up to a 180* swing from natural lean, when it close to the lay I need gun it and cut a bunch of wood and gravity will sever the fibers for you. Now that is the minds eye view of what you want and that don't always happen, you have to be pretty bang on for where the cuts need to be and read the tree well too. Still many many things that can make this deal a complete waste, break your high dollar tree, or worse yourself. Consider species, what's in between the tree and where it'll swing to, your gut.........if your balls tingle and it don't feel right........don't do er, torch it off with the lean or whatever is comfortable, no tree worth not going home for. Safe cuttin out there boss

 

[HuskStihl]

If the tree was going 180' to lean then the saw would pinch before completing the back cut, the lean is basically along the direction of the CS bar cutting the back cut, once the back & front cuts overlap on the opposite side of the tuft of hinge, it pinches the tip of the bar, that shows where the lean actually is. All going well there I little bit of lean in the direction the tree needs to go in, starting it off in that direction, as far as I can see it's nothing that couldn't be done with a conventional cut with a tapering hinge, if it didn't go over it would just sit back on the wedge you'd have in the back cut as a safety, a couple of taps on the wedge, take the saw out, a couple more taps on the wedge & it's over.
Transki

I hate this video, 'cause after I pinch the tip, I keep blipping the throttle waiting for the kerf to break. Makes me look more noobish than usual. The very first move this tree makes is in the direction of its lean, pinching the bar tip.

The first kerf breaks, the bar is free, the holding wood holds, and the butt comes off the stump on the opposite side of the stump
This pic shows the set up

This shows the stump. Note the broken first kerf on the right and the holding wood on the left.

This tree turned more than 90 degrees, and I lost momentum when I pinched the tip. Had I palmed a wedge and kept nibbling, I bet it would have turned more

 

[Woos31]

I hate this video, 'cause after I pinch the tip, I keep blipping the throttle waiting for the kerf to break. Makes me look more noobish than usual. The very first move this tree makes is in the direction of its lean, pinching the bar tip.

The first kerf breaks, the bar is free, the holding wood holds, and the butt comes off the stump on the opposite side of the stump
This pic shows the set up
View attachment 512094
This shows the stump. Note the broken first kerf on the right and the holding wood on the left.
View attachment 512095
This tree turned more than 90 degrees, and I lost momentum when I pinched the tip. Had I palmed a wedge and kept nibbling, I bet it would have turned more

Got er to turn though, and sometimes tougher with a small diameter stick too

 

[Bwildered]

I had the wedge in the back just to keep the kerf open. Without the wedge keeping the kerf open the tree would have sat back and not moved at all. The tree was pretty well balanced. The stem lean was roughly 180 to the lay, but the top had just enough weight on one side to encourage favorable movement. The harder the tree is leaning or the more top heavy it is limits how far you can swing the tree.

I see & now understand why you were cutting on the face cut last, you nibbled away at the timber under the point of balance (C of G line between the hinge tuft & the opposite side of the stump) & it toppled once it was gone, just like pushing a can slowly over the edge of a table, the table being your last cuts.
Tarski

 

[madhatte]

Yep, if it sits on yer bar and then lifts off of it, you know it's turning and everything's working. Just keep your eyes on the top of the tree and remember that your escape routes have to be adjusted to accommodate the swing.

 

[bitzer]

I see & now understand why you were cutting on the face cut last, you nibbled away at the timber under the point of balance (C of G line between the hinge tuft & the opposite side of the stump) & it toppled once it was gone, just like pushing a can slowly over the edge of a table, the table being your last cuts.
Tarski

Correct. When I first start to make my backcut the tree starts to sit back at right around 20 seconds. That's when I realized I needed to cut more of the hinge away from the face to get the tree to sit down and lean out to the side. Right around 45-49 seconds the tree sits into the back corner( kerf tightens up). I looked into the face to see if the kerf had tightened up and it had meaning it had leaned more to the side and there was hope that the tree would be able to be swung how I wanted it to. Now that it moved to the side and ahead that meant that I could saw more from the back. When I return to the backcut I am "sawing" back and forth to open the kerf up a little because it hadn't opened up all the way yet, but I knew I couldn't take more out of the front so I had to work it there. Any more out of the front and I would have lost it. I really didn't want to wedge it because I wanted things to happen naturally for the video, but I was very close to doing it so I didn't lose the tree backward. Eventually as I nip at the backcut I start getting the movement I need which is apparent by the, at first, subtle closing and opening of the kerfs. What is remaining of the hinge acts as a pivot point. I often like a triangular shaped hinge for my holding wood because it seems to get better movement over a more rectangular hinge. Sometimes it's all in how you cut it up though and how the tree moves. Once I show the tree when it is down if you can mentally line up how it must have been standing you can see that the stem had a curvature or lean away from the lay. In the he future I won't turn the damn camera all over the place. Gets annoying to watch and hard to visualize.

 

[Bwildered]

Correct. When I first start to make my backcut the tree starts to sit back at right around 20 seconds. That's when I realized I needed to cut more of the hinge away from the face to get the tree to sit down and lean out to the side. Right around 45-49 seconds the tree sits into the back corner( kerf tightens up). I looked into the face to see if the kerf had tightened up and it had meaning it had leaned more to the side and there was hope that the tree would be able to be swung how I wanted it to. Now that it moved to the side and ahead that meant that I could saw more from the back. When I return to the backcut I am "sawing" back and forth to open the kerf up a little because it hadn't opened up all the way yet, but I knew I couldn't take more out of the front so I had to work it there. Any more out of the front and I would have lost it. I really didn't want to wedge it because I wanted things to happen naturally for the video, but I was very close to doing it so I didn't lose the tree backward. Eventually as I nip at the backcut I start getting the movement I need which is apparent by the, at first, subtle closing and opening of the kerfs. What is remaining of the hinge acts as a pivot point. I often like a triangular shaped hinge for my holding wood because it seems to get better movement over a more rectangular hinge. Sometimes it's all in how you cut it up though and how the tree moves. Once I show the tree when it is down if you can mentally line up how it must have been standing you can see that the stem had a curvature or lean away from the lay. In the he future I won't turn the damn camera all over the place. Gets annoying to watch and hard to visualize.

I watched the vid several times in fast motion, backwards & forwards & it confirms my theory of what I have been saying all along, the actual high side of the C of G or lean is where the tuft of hinge is left, the tree cannot fall that way because the tree can't beat gravity & fall uphill so to speak, in the screen shots you can see that tree has fallen a near perfect 90' to a line across the butt to the point on the other side where it pivoted off (pic 1), that tree could have also easily gone the exact opposite way but your wedge stopped it leaning anymore that way, a falling range of 180' but still only 90' to the line of the C of G or lean, the butt of the tree ended up way past that 90' but that's irrelevant, as if the land sloped the other way it would have been that far a less an angle than 90', it's where it hit the ground that matters & not the rolling around on the ground after that counts.
If you were to cut the hinge off Starting at the far side before fully completing the belly & backcuts the tree would naturally fall over the pivot point shown in pic 1. Which is the line of the C of G or lean, you could not reverse that cut starting at the camera side, as the saw would pinch under compression.
Transki