Looking for Soft Dutchman against the Lean Video

[bitzer]

Of course it fell 90 degrees to the hold wood! That's where I aimed it! I feel like we've stepped backwards. Now. If I had faced the tree the opposite direction that I did the tree would have gone that way without a problem. The reasons I did not start on the camera side instead was like I mentioned there was slightly more top weight on the camera side allowing for favorable movement. In physical realtion to the actually typography I'm cutting on the downhill side of the stump. Swinging over the downhill slope would gain too much momentum for the hold wood to hang on all the way through. The wind was another factor in how I cut the tree. It was coming out of the northwest. The tree was faced to the north. The reason I mention to look at it on the ground is you can mentally put the tree back on the stump and see that the stem had a backward lean. You can also see saw marks in the butt similar to when you bore cut. This is where I was "sawing " into the backcut in order to open it up. So you are thinking the center of gravity line is north and south? West (hinge side)being the high side and east (camera side)the low? If that were the case all I would have needed to do was use a single kerf Dutchman and she would have laid right out. Also there is slightly less sapwood on the south side, indicating the wood was under compression there.

 

[Bwildered]

Of course it fell 90 degrees to the hold wood! That's where I aimed it! I feel like we've stepped backwards. Now. If I had faced the tree the opposite direction that I did the tree would have gone that way without a problem. The reasons I did not start on the camera side instead was like I mentioned there was slightly more top weight on the camera side allowing for favorable movement. In physical realtion to the actually typography I'm cutting on the downhill side of the stump. Swinging over the downhill slope would gain too much momentum for the hold wood to hang on all the way through. The wind was another factor in how I cut the tree. It was coming out of the northwest. The tree was faced to the north. The reason I mention to look at it on the ground is you can mentally put the tree back on the stump and see that the stem had a backward lean. You can also see saw marks in the butt similar to when you bore cut. This is where I was "sawing " into the backcut in order to open it up. So you are thinking the center of gravity line is north and south? West (hinge side)being the high side and east (camera side)the low? If that were the case all I would have needed to do was use a single kerf Dutchman and she would have laid right out. Also there is slightly less sapwood on the south side, indicating the wood was under compression there.

If I'm reading what you say correctly the tree had to be perpendicular with no lean in any direction & the C of G over the centre of the stump, by overlapping your back & front cuts that allows the tree to sit down (sawing in the lean) opposite the holding wood & fall the tree 90' either way to that point
Thanski

 

[bnmc98]

View attachment 512196 View attachment 512195
I watched the vid several times in fast motion, backwards & forwards & it confirms my theory of what I have been saying all along, the actual high side of the C of G or lean is where the tuft of hinge is left, the tree cannot fall that way because the tree can't beat gravity & fall uphill so to speak, in the screen shots you can see that tree has fallen a near perfect 90' to a line across the butt to the point on the other side where it pivoted off (pic 1), that tree could have also easily gone the exact opposite way but your wedge stopped it leaning anymore that way, a falling range of 180' but still only 90' to the line of the C of G or lean, the butt of the tree ended up way past that 90' but that's irrelevant, as if the land sloped the other way it would have been that far a less an angle than 90', it's where it hit the ground that matters & not the rolling around on the ground after that counts.
If you were to cut the hinge off Starting at the far side before fully completing the belly & backcuts the tree would naturally fall over the pivot point shown in pic 1. Which is the line of the C of G or lean, you could not reverse that cut starting at the camera side, as the saw would pinch under compression.
Transki

You have got to be kidding me!

Simple. find the way the tree is leaning and swing it 180. who cares about all the C of G stuff. You are way over complicating things.
Its a tree. It got cut. It fell a different direction than the lean. Done.

 

[Skeans]

You have got to be kidding me!

Simple. find the way the tree is leaning and swing it 180. who cares about all the C of G stuff. You are way over complicating things.
Its a tree. It got cut. It fell a different direction than the lean. Done.

It's the kiss method

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[hseII]

It's the kiss method

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I have figured out the root cause of the issue: Bewildered is an book toting Engineer.

 

[Skeans]

I have figured out the root cause of the issue: Bewildered is an book toting Engineer.

We all have stuff we know what to do with if you don't know how to do don't it's that easy, if you ask for help take it and learn it either works for you or it doesn't. If you're not comfortable put wedges in before or a jack because it's so far back but otherwise drop it.

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[Bwildered]

You have got to be kidding me!

Simple. find the way the tree is leaning and swing it 180. who cares about all the C of G stuff. You are way over complicating things.
Its a tree. It got cut. It fell a different direction than the lean. Done.

We'll lets all throw our hands up in the air just take some roosters word for it then, if the principals of physics are beyond you just sit back watch it unfold, the centre of gravity has everything to do with what is possible & what isn't. If the C of G is outside the butt edge of the tree then with the soft Dutchman method it is impossible to get the tree to turn anymore than 90' to the line of that across the butt, now if the C of G is centrally within the butt then you can make a that tree fall vertually in any direction you want by dropping the side opposite the hold wood & creating a lean, it's just the opposite of wedging, but instead of lifting the tree you are dropping it by taking wood away & then toppling it to the side with the overlapping cuts. We have all seen the vids of it working, but the failure rate would be pretty high I'd imagine with hung up trees, bent bars & smashed saws a result of it not working.
Fansinski

 

[bnmc98]

Bewildered not sure if this fits into your logic cause a lot of that is over my head, but, you can swing the tree also with the holding wood in the center, just a little different technique on the back cut.

 

[hseII]

We all have stuff we know what to do with if you don't know how to do don't it's that easy, if you ask for help take it and learn it either works for you or it doesn't. If you're not comfortable put wedges in before or a jack because it's so far back but otherwise drop it.

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When I get home, I'm going to go looking for hard leaners to hone my skill set.

I want to practice this, as I'm used to wedging.
I'll be sure to only work with those that won't hit anything if I get too happy with the throttle. [emoji41]

 

[Skeans]

When I get home, I'm going to go looking for hard leaners to hone my skill set.

I want to practice this, as I'm used to wedging.
I'll be sure to only work with those that won't hit anything if I get too happy with the throttle. [emoji41]

Practice is everything just like cutting how did you learn? I learned a bunch of this from a guy that was buschling in Alaska and he learned it from guys older then him. If this guy from OZ has an issue with our style or technical style I'll remind him they learned from us from day one, yes a younger brother can teach an older brother new tricks but listen to what we're saying.

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[hseII]

Practice is everything just like cutting how did you learn? I learned a bunch of this from a guy that was buschling in Alaska and he learned it from guys older then him. If this guy from OZ has an issue with our style or technical style I'll remind him they learned from us from day one, yes a younger brother can teach an older brother new tricks but listen to what we're saying.

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What little I know I picked up from my uncles, as the family was in the grading & clearing business for over 30 yrs.

For instance, they've told about taking down Water Oaks in town, and having to load the stumps with 2- 955 track loaders onto the lowboy for transport.


I have since picked up better saw habits from forums like this one & others, but they were pretty dang good on equipment: especially the tall one & gpa.

 

[Bwildered]

I have figured out the root cause of the issue: Bewildered is an book toting Engineer.

I already mentioned I'd done engineering & surveying units at university level & passed with credits, the principals of gravity are quite clear, I'm also a faller & started doing that professionally over 25 years ago, so if you think you're talking to some hairy ar*ed teenager you are sorely mistaken.
Fanks

 

[Skeans]

What little I know I picked up from my uncles, as the family was in the grading & clearing business for over 30 yrs.

For instance, they've told about taking down Water Oaks in town, and having to load the stumps with 2- 955 track loaders onto the lowboy for transport.


I have since picked up better saw habits from forums like this one & others, but they were pretty dang good on equipment: especially the tall one & gpa.

I've replanted from 200 year old stuff to 60 as well as thinning some hand falling to machine thinning all the above have to walked into a row so if they don't work tell me.

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[Skeans]

I already mentioned I'd done engineering & surveying units at university level & passed with credits, the principals of gravity are quite clear, I'm also a faller & started doing that professionally over 25 years ago, so if you think you're talking to some hairy ar*ed teenager you are sorely mistaken.
Fanks

I've got a good question honest for you where does engineering go out the window for you?

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[hseII]

I already mentioned I'd done engineering & surveying units at university level & passed with credits, the principals of gravity are quite clear, I'm also a faller & started doing that professionally over 25 years ago, so if you think you're talking to some hairy ar*ed teenager you are sorely mistaken.
Fanks

I Don't.

I Think I'm talking to a hard headed seasoned guy, who knows what works for him, but continues to argue against what works for others because he doesn't understand their methods.

 

[Skeans]

I already mentioned I'd done engineering & surveying units at university level & passed with credits, the principals of gravity are quite clear, I'm also a faller & started doing that professionally over 25 years ago, so if you think you're talking to some hairy ar*ed teenager you are sorely mistaken.
Fanks

For one I'm not a teen for two I've worked in different kind of wood and different sizes of timber, if you don't like it what we have to tell you then don't take our advice from up North, remember we took your guys advice and killed the fallers work as well as look for your job going down the drain for setting chokers.

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[Bwildered]

It doesn't matter what wood you're working in, gravity is the same. I'll have take another couple of minutes out of my day and do another couple of sketches to prove it . I was waiting for you guys to show how with a diagram how it's possible but the lead paint levels must have been a bit higher over your way than here, I hoping they won't be too complex to understand, an engineer would grasp them easily.
Tanks

 

[madhatte]

I think perhaps it is fun for you to pretend to not understand what we're saying.

 

[Skeans]

I think perhaps it is fun for you to pretend to not understand what we're saying.

What's next I need a PHD to weld over a guy that has done it for years?

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[hseII]

What's next I need a PHD to weld over a guy that has done it for years?

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Or a no-welding Q.C.

Wait... [emoji38][emoji38]