Low impact pre-commercial thinning with a skidsteer - am I nuts?

[lmbrman]

What's that saying, a picture is worth a thousand words? Does it work the other way, that if you use enough words a picture forms?

If this site were not so durn slow I would start a poll on this project. I think there will never be as many sticks to the landing as words used planning it.

You show me otherwise and I'll be proud of you Jim, but its just too much talk for the job at hand.

be safe and good luck

 

[Jim Timber]

I had a long response addressing everything, but I just deleted it.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Gologit]

I'm out of here too. You asked, we answered, you argued. That's enough of this foolishness for me.

 

[treeslayer2003]

oh, iv met landowners like this before........good luck buddy yer gonna need it.

 

[Jim Timber]

If I can produce 40 cords of firewood a year, I'll be fine.

 

[slowp]

Enough! Off with you to the Firewood Forum! Shoo!

 

[lfnh]

If I can produce 40 cords of firewood a year, I'll be fine.

Betcha cant.

 

[bitzer]

Damn, and I had all kinds of fun stuff to say. At least post a pic of some decked wood in a few months... Maybe a buyer handing you cash or a check in the picture? With a hand shake?

 

[OlympicYJ]

Alright fella. You've talked with a bunch of professional loggers and a few foresters. You don't know Sh*t from shinola about forestry or logging.

For the record slowp is right and you are an idiot.

Here's a suggestion, don't come back.

Oh, and I deleted all the mean stuff I was gonna say about you too.

 

[treeslayer2003]

see, the thing is he knows more about forestry than all the loggers and foresters put together....to him we just destroyers. perception is not fact. plenty of well intentioned folks have totally messed up their woods thinking they know best......but what do I know.

 

[Gologit]

see, the thing is he knows more about forestry than all the loggers and foresters put together....to him we just destroyers. perception is not fact. plenty of well intentioned folks have totally messed up their woods thinking they know best......but what do I know.

You know more than he does. I'm just glad I'm not working for that guy. I've taken on some "homeowner" jobs in the past and most of the people were pretty sensible once we found a way to communicate. A lot of times their expectations were unreasonable but when they understood how things really worked and what kind of results we could come up with everything smoothed right out.
I had one job that I fiddled around with off and on for over five years. The landowners were city folk who were trying to improve 180 acres of old second growth. They did it right and hired a consulting forester who helped them plan their land use and gave them a good guideline for what they wanted to achieve. I'd go in and do the falling and skidding and they hired somebody to do the cleanup. We did it in patches...fifteen or twenty acres at a time. Some of the logs were milled onsite for their buildings and some went for firewood. The land owners learned a lot and they were happy with the results once they realized how things really worked in the woods.
I don't mind working with people who don't know much if they're willing to learn and adjust their thinking to the realities of the situation . I admire what the OP is trying to do but he's green, unrealistic and he doesn't listen to good advice. That's a bad combination.

 

[oregon steel]

To go in and cut one or two cords a week, using personal equipment (chainsaw, trailer, pickup) seems doable. If 40 cords a year will get you where you want to be, go for it. Start with your range and work out from there. With 80 acres it may seem like nothing is getting done. I you need it all done at once, hire it done.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Bob

Sounds like they had a very good forester. Was it all cut or did they have some stem retention other than wildlife trees? My dads place is presenting some interesting challenges as there's alder and some really nice second growth DF that needs CTd. The fields are gonna get afforested here in the two to 5 years. We have a bean grower interested in a 5 yr contract. It's paying pretty good and it will get some nitrogen in the soil plus there will be a cover crop of oats planted after fall. Good well have the site prep done for free and won't have compacted soil. Bad is the elk are gonna be used to that oat cover crop and come back in to find a bunch of seedlings... I'm contemplating doing a two aged stand in the DF and there will be patch cuts of sorts in the alder. Not sure if I'm gonna do natural regen or plant yet for the alder. The big ole spruces I've convinced dad to take at some point as they are wolfy and aren't doing a thing with spruce weevil in em. The bigger DF I think we'll just leave. Low brushy spots I'm planning on clearing out and either planting Cedar in or seeding with clover for deer and elk. The more experience and education I get the more possibilities I see.

Wes

 

[OlympicYJ]

Oh and when I say big DF I'm talking 40 inchers. Got a swell butt 54 that needs to go though... dead top. Most likely Ips beetle.

 

[Gologit]

Bob

Sounds like they had a very good forester. Was it all cut or did they have some stem retention other than wildlife trees? My dads place is presenting some interesting challenges as there's alder and some really nice second growth DF that needs CTd. The fields are gonna get afforested here in the two to 5 years. We have a bean grower interested in a 5 yr contract. It's paying pretty good and it will get some nitrogen in the soil plus there will be a cover crop of oats planted after fall. Good well have the site prep done for free and won't have compacted soil. Bad is the elk are gonna be used to that oat cover crop and come back in to find a bunch of seedlings... I'm contemplating doing a two aged stand in the DF and there will be patch cuts of sorts in the alder. Not sure if I'm gonna do natural regen or plant yet for the alder. The big ole spruces I've convinced dad to take at some point as they are wolfy and aren't doing a thing with spruce weevil in em. The bigger DF I think we'll just leave. Low brushy spots I'm planning on clearing out and either planting Cedar in or seeding with clover for deer and elk. The more experience and education I get the more possibilities I see.

Wes

It sounds like you have a good plan for that ground. That's the point that we were all trying to make with Timber Jim...get a good professional plan and listen to well schooled advice. Oh well.

The people I was talking about left quite a bit of timber. We were lucky in that it was one of those rare good mixes of forester, landowner, and logger. People who could communicate...and compromise if need be. It turned out to be one of my favorite jobs.
They're retired dot-com refugees from the Bay Area but they're totally without all the pretentious attitude and urban baggage that so many people like that carry to the country with them. They look at that piece of ground as their children's inheritance and they're keeping a very light footprint. I admire what they're doing. We did a lot of walking and they explained what they wanted. We found ways to do most of it and what we couldn't do we found alternatives for.
I spent about five years off and on up there. I'd cut a little and they'd mill it or turn it into firewood and I'd go back and cut a little more. We took the absolute cream in df, pine, and cedar. Old second growth and some passed over old growth, beautiful stuff. Most of the buildings were built with the timber milled on site. The forester would pick the trees based on what the owner wanted. I'd fall and buck to what the guy running the mill needed and do the skidding.
LOL...they started off wanting to do the skidding themselves with a little Ford 9N but they figured out pretty quick that might not work on 41 ft df and pine. I had a D-6 that wasn't doing much so I took it up there. They owners did some hobby skidding on the small stuff on gentle ground and had some fun with it. The mill guy was a pretty fair cat-skinner and when I wasn't using the 6 he cut pads with it and did some pond and road work.
They haven't had anything cut in a couple of years now and they may not cut much more at all. That's fine.
I stopped in and talked to them late last year and they're pretty happy with the way things turned out.

 

[madhatte]

they're pretty happy with the way things turned out.

In the end, that's the most important thing. It means that everybody did a good job.

 

[Gologit]

In the end, that's the most important thing. It means that everybody did a good job.

Getting paid helps, too.

 

[Steve NW WI]

O dear, I just read this whole thread.

Jim - I believe you've mentioned neck/back issues before? Bouncing around in a SSL/CTL ain't gonna do that one tiny bit of good. It's hard on guys with a good back in rough ground.

You've gotten some good advice, whether you wanted it or not. If you HONESTLY believe you can cause less disturbance with a skidsteer/CTL/ATV with trailer than a guy with years or decades of experience running a skidder, by all means, get to it, and take lots of pics. I did some hobby logging last fall with a guy that runs a big skid loader hours a day in his tree transplanting business, and we still made a mess, albeit one that he and I both thought was acceptable. The thread is still here somewhere, but I suspect linkbucks killed the pics. Someday when I have time, I'll try to put them back, still have em on my computer. His marketing didn't work as well as the cutting, and the logs are still laying roadside today.

No, slowp, I ain't moving this to firewood. 10 guys there would repeat the same thing that's been said over and over here already and be ignored/argued with, then one rocket surgeon will tell him it'll work great, and that he should be able to double that 95$/cord profit then we'll be off to the same old races again. I suspect it'll die here just as easily.

 

[northmanlogging]

Move it anyway, should be High larry us...

 

[redprospector]

Shhhhhhh.
Hear that gurgling sound?
Let it die fella's, just let it die.