VikingDrive
ArboristSite Operative
And how about M-Tronic climbing saw. Can do without adding much weight? I'd like it. Trade you fuel purge bulb for that.
M-tronic/Autotune bologna??
- Thread starter wigglesworth
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Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
Well, I'm a Luddite and I design electronic circuits for a living. As far as I'm concerned chainsaws are fancy new technology, which is why I've also begun collecting and learning to use/maintain hand saws. I'm hardly expecting the present trend where everything must have a micro in it to continue all that much longer, but AT/MT seem like a long overdue step.
1. From what I can tell this is a pretty simple system, and I doubt it was developed by the saw manufacturers any more than they did the non-feedback carbs. Periodically it leans out the mixture for a moment and looks at what happens to the rpms. And adjusts accordingly. It apparently stores a few parameters as a longer term adaptation. So it needs a power source (not hard to do from the spinning magnet already there), a micro some flash and ram (probably all combined in one embedded microcontroller), a solenoid of some sort in the carb, and a driver for the solenoid. It gets rpm from the ignition. That's pretty much all they need, and I doubt the micro is or needs to be very powerful. It should be able to get the tuning just exactly the way everyone wants it to be, with the possible exception of a few special situations that aren't really relevant to a work saw.
2. The electronics module should be extremely reliable IF they knew what they were doing. The EECIV engine control computer in my '94 F250 still works perfectly at 165,000 miles, as does the ignition. When that was made the US auto makers knew how to do electronics in a harsh environment very well - far, far better than the Europeans or Japanese at that time (although those have caught up now). However, most consumer and computer electronics now is SO bad I hesitate to buy anything (keep in mind my office has been 20' from an electronics manufacturing floor for the last 25 years). That is equal parts lead free solder and really really poor quality manufacturing (driven by the expectation of something for nothing by both managers and customers). Hopefully they did it right.
3. I don't see the need for fuel injection at all. What would be the benefit? There are no fuel distribution problems since it's a single cylinder. You need to lube the crank anyway. Carbs atomize fuel quite well. Who wants a basket full of sensors added to a weight and size constrained product? I just don't see what you'd get out of it. With this system they look at the results as determined by the rpm change - they're essentially looking at the output so they don't need all those input sensors. The system is a bit simplistic, but simple is also good on a device like this. The carbs on chainsaws are the ******** stepsons of real carbs anyway, so this just carries on the tradition.
For the VAST majority of users this is major improvement. Ask anyone other than a few nuts like the AS crowd, and everyone HATES two stroke OPE. Hates it, and expects it won't start, and expects to throw it out. Every time one actually starts and runs right they're amazed. They'd just just like to have it work without messing with it, which includes tuning it. They just aren't designing this stuff for a few percentage of customers who modify it, which is understandable. Unless this works its way down to homeowner saws (possible) I'm unlikely to own one, so I'll keep using my ears and my screwdriver to do the feedback.
1. From what I can tell this is a pretty simple system, and I doubt it was developed by the saw manufacturers any more than they did the non-feedback carbs. Periodically it leans out the mixture for a moment and looks at what happens to the rpms. And adjusts accordingly. It apparently stores a few parameters as a longer term adaptation. So it needs a power source (not hard to do from the spinning magnet already there), a micro some flash and ram (probably all combined in one embedded microcontroller), a solenoid of some sort in the carb, and a driver for the solenoid. It gets rpm from the ignition. That's pretty much all they need, and I doubt the micro is or needs to be very powerful. It should be able to get the tuning just exactly the way everyone wants it to be, with the possible exception of a few special situations that aren't really relevant to a work saw.
2. The electronics module should be extremely reliable IF they knew what they were doing. The EECIV engine control computer in my '94 F250 still works perfectly at 165,000 miles, as does the ignition. When that was made the US auto makers knew how to do electronics in a harsh environment very well - far, far better than the Europeans or Japanese at that time (although those have caught up now). However, most consumer and computer electronics now is SO bad I hesitate to buy anything (keep in mind my office has been 20' from an electronics manufacturing floor for the last 25 years). That is equal parts lead free solder and really really poor quality manufacturing (driven by the expectation of something for nothing by both managers and customers). Hopefully they did it right.
3. I don't see the need for fuel injection at all. What would be the benefit? There are no fuel distribution problems since it's a single cylinder. You need to lube the crank anyway. Carbs atomize fuel quite well. Who wants a basket full of sensors added to a weight and size constrained product? I just don't see what you'd get out of it. With this system they look at the results as determined by the rpm change - they're essentially looking at the output so they don't need all those input sensors. The system is a bit simplistic, but simple is also good on a device like this. The carbs on chainsaws are the ******** stepsons of real carbs anyway, so this just carries on the tradition.
For the VAST majority of users this is major improvement. Ask anyone other than a few nuts like the AS crowd, and everyone HATES two stroke OPE. Hates it, and expects it won't start, and expects to throw it out. Every time one actually starts and runs right they're amazed. They'd just just like to have it work without messing with it, which includes tuning it. They just aren't designing this stuff for a few percentage of customers who modify it, which is understandable. Unless this works its way down to homeowner saws (possible) I'm unlikely to own one, so I'll keep using my ears and my screwdriver to do the feedback.
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Agoraphobia
ArboristSite Member
I just replaced all 8 of my coil-on-plug units and spark plugs on my '97 5.8l Tritan V8 and the DPFE sensor as well. Give me the straight six with all the emissions crap tore off and a carter carb on it every day over the new fuel injected stuff. The performance isn't enough different for me to make it worthwhile. A whole new carb is like $150 and 10 minutes for a Ford V-8, what does a whole new emissions set-up run you in cost and time?
When considering the "I just want to run it and not have to worry" you have to consider both sides of that, when it work right and when it doesn't. Downtime of new stuff is hell compared to the old technology! And the expense of repairs is horrendous too.
How many threads are there of folks tearing into their saws and re-jetting or porting or muffler modding etc...? How many would there be if our saws were all computer controlled? My guess is far less since you can only get away with so much that the computer is going to accept away from what it expects to see, by way of mods.
Limiters are fine if adjustable or removable and on low grade disposable saws I suppose full computer control would be fine, but on professional saws it would just add unnecessary expense and headache and kill what many of us love about our saws.
I recently got rid of a Bronco I loved. It was perfect and rust free, but we moved remote and couldn't keep it. I got it for a song because it had a small carb fire that burned through the wiring harness and the owner couldn't afford nor perform the replacement. It was a California emissions vehicle and it was rank. I saw it for what it was though and stripped away piles of smog pump, computer, TFI ignition, EGR, A/C that didn't work etc... until you could smuggle quite a few border crossers under the hood if you wanted to. Point being it was only the tech that kept the previous owner from being able to fix it. Had he had it like I sold it, that would have been different and I wouldn't have had my little mule.
Add to that the 2003 Johnson 2-stroke outboard I just sold (attached to a boat) that was in high demand since two strokes are out of production here. Everybody wanted that engine. I don't wonder why (although that is a somewhat separate issue).
When considering the "I just want to run it and not have to worry" you have to consider both sides of that, when it work right and when it doesn't. Downtime of new stuff is hell compared to the old technology! And the expense of repairs is horrendous too.
How many threads are there of folks tearing into their saws and re-jetting or porting or muffler modding etc...? How many would there be if our saws were all computer controlled? My guess is far less since you can only get away with so much that the computer is going to accept away from what it expects to see, by way of mods.
Limiters are fine if adjustable or removable and on low grade disposable saws I suppose full computer control would be fine, but on professional saws it would just add unnecessary expense and headache and kill what many of us love about our saws.
I recently got rid of a Bronco I loved. It was perfect and rust free, but we moved remote and couldn't keep it. I got it for a song because it had a small carb fire that burned through the wiring harness and the owner couldn't afford nor perform the replacement. It was a California emissions vehicle and it was rank. I saw it for what it was though and stripped away piles of smog pump, computer, TFI ignition, EGR, A/C that didn't work etc... until you could smuggle quite a few border crossers under the hood if you wanted to. Point being it was only the tech that kept the previous owner from being able to fix it. Had he had it like I sold it, that would have been different and I wouldn't have had my little mule.
Add to that the 2003 Johnson 2-stroke outboard I just sold (attached to a boat) that was in high demand since two strokes are out of production here. Everybody wanted that engine. I don't wonder why (although that is a somewhat separate issue).
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I'm not a tuner, I just want the darn thing to run ... when I want it and get the job done as quickly as possible.
When I buy something, the first thing I look at is reliability. Next is power and price is a distant third. A good tool will pay the difference in price with longevity and reliability.
I still have tools that I bought in my teens that work as well thirty-seven years later as the day I bought them. Case in point are my Milwaukee Magnum tools with the removable cords. I beat the crap out of those tools, mixing grout, drywall mud, 2inch spade bits and they will still try to break your wrist if you are not paying attention. My black and decker bulldawg electric impact wrench is another one that still keeps pounding away.
I don't think the made in china crap they sell today can last and take the abuse. It's cheaper to replace the tools than buy the replacement batteries ... If you can still get them.
Stihl and the pro-grade Husky's i've used are like that. You got to maintain them, they reward you back with service.
OTOH, I have bought expensive tools that were pure crap.
Dad has a Makita 1/2" electric drill older than I am, probably 35ish years now (I'm not far behind lol) and that thing WILL snap your wrist if you ain't paying attention. We still buy Makita tools today, they are still good quality tools that have and will continue to keep paying for themselves (minus a few cheesy box models, but everyone has a few of those on the market nowadays).
And price doesnt really coincide with quality
but usually quality costs more.
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
LOL - it's 15 years old! I had to have the transmission rebuilt on my F250 last year - pissed me off but after 18 years and 160,000 miles I figure it didn't owe anything.
And the Bronco burned because the carb caught fire and burned the wiring harness, which is why you'd rather have a carb?:smile2: You do realize that some would find repairing the wiring harness to be a not-that-awful job? I'd rather fix the harness a dozen times than the exhaust manifold replacement I did on the F250 last fall. I'm perfectly happy with a good carb too, but then I know my way around a carb pretty well, and I can say that the majority of people I've known who had carbs didn't really understand the first thing about them, any more than they would an EFI system. They were just more comfortable with them because they were mechanical and seemed simple.
rms61moparman
Addicted to ArboristSite
wigglesworth
Booned
I know this thread probably chaps a lot of folks hind ends, and thats not really my intentions. Im just looking at it without blinders on. If im wrong, somebody show me the error of my ways.
I figured I'd quote muh self from the beginning. It really isn't my intentions to piss anybody off.
From those of you who have em, you seem to love em. In fact, y'all are quite passionate about it. That's great. I hope they give you years of trouble free service.
But I got a couple questions for my fellow modders. As in, you do your own port work/saw modification. You know, us one percenters.
Does the autotune/M-Tronic make the saw more powerful like Stihl and Husky claim? Do you believe that the auto systems give you maximum power in every RPM range, at every given moment?
wigglesworth
Booned
rms61moparman
Addicted to ArboristSite
Why aren't you at work?
Don't TELL me they gave you a night off!!!:msp_tongue:
Mike
Don't TELL me they gave you a night off!!!:msp_tongue:
Mike
wigglesworth
Booned
Yep. I finished up my 60 hours last night.
Gotta start back tomorrow, bright and early at 8:30PM...
How far is fuel injection away as far as time?
HEAVY FUEL
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wigglesworth
Booned
We all know how hard Wiggz works!
Well, I am an aspiring R-Tist!
In my limited experience I would say yes, the systems seemed to work well, just like I said about strato saws 5 years ago.:msp_wink:
Sorry but you guys that like carb's need to move back in time 100 years or so. I'll stay here with electricity, AC, internet and cars that start in the winter without pumping 100 times. You're right carb's are better everyone else in the modern world is wrong and evil with all this electrickery.
otstir:otstir::msp_tongue:
Stihlman441
Addicted to ArboristSite
IMO disagree with what you have said,i have put a lot of hrs on stock,muff modded and ported 441Cs and will not go back to an old type saw.The wrap model 441C is better in every way than a 460.If you use a saw ever day then ya cant go wrong with one or two.
Better
Filter system
Less fuel and fumes
Heaps better AV
Easy start system
No tune
Responds well to modds
rms61moparman
Addicted to ArboristSite
That just depends on how long it takes for todays gidgets and gadgets to get commonplace.
It is an undeniable fact that manufacturers MUST continually come up with new twists on the same old products in order to convince you that what you paid good money for juat a few years ago is obsolete and just won't do the job it was designed to do.
No where is this more prevalent than electronics, cars, trucks, tools and guns.
It should come as no surprise to most anyone who has read this entire thread that I hunt deer with a 30-30.
The cartridge was designed 117 years ago and if one were to pay close attention to the gun manufacturers and sports writers it just isn't capable of killing a whitetail deer these days.
I do however have a freezer full of venison to prove otherwise though.
My favorite tractor was built in 1956 and is just as capable of doing a days work today as it was back then.
I guess I'm just a dinosaur, born in a time when the whole world wasn't disposable. When we didn't recycle we just rebuilt and kept.
I'm okay with that.
Youall have fun with your gidgets and gadgets, I'll just stick to my outdated equipment. It does more work in a day than my old butt wants anyway!
Mike
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But at the same time the 441 is fat, the overall design is cluttered and Husky's AV systems were just as good 20 years ago. Yes the 441 is a good saw, better than the anti anything new crowd will ever admit. However it's the first of it's generation and it shows, the next go around will likely be a much cleaner package.
Look I find this stuff stupid really, it seems like everyone is at opposite ends, like always the truth is somewhere in the middle. Too much technology before it's ready never works out well. The same could be said about sitting on your thumbs and doing the same thing over and over and never changing. Do just that and someone else will pass you by, and when you try and catch up, it's too little too late. Think the US auto industry here.
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wigglesworth
Booned
In my limited experience I would say yes, the systems seemed to work well, just like I said about strato saws 5 years ago.:msp_wink:
Sorry but you guys that like carb's need to move back in time 100 years or so. I'll stay here with electricity, AC, internet and cars that start in the winter without pumping 100 times. You're right carb's are better everyone else in the modern world is wrong and evil with all this electrickery.
U still didn't really answer muh question...
Do the auto saws make more power than the non auto saws?
Disagreeing is ok.
I'm glad you love your saw.
But nothing you mentioned has anything to do with the m-tronic system other than the "no tune". And I've never had a problem with any of the other stuff you mentioned either. :dunno:
But I really am glad u like it....
wigglesworth
Booned
Im with ya. I wish it didn't really turn into a "my saw is better than your saw" thread, but I guess it's kinda inevitable.
I just think the systems as a whole are not what they are promoted to be. Anybody with any electronics knowledge can look at a M-Tronics system and draw their own conclusions....
Now, real, really real EFI..... That's a different story all together.
