stillusingstihl
ArboristSite Lurker
Avoid Mtronic like the Bubonic Plague! See if your dad will part with his old 036av.
M-Tronic - Avoid? Or Acquire?
- Thread starter Levi of the North
- Start date
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I have both styles, I love the new M Tron when it works right and the vibrations are a hell of a lot less on the new saws. I tend to favor the new saws because of fewer vibrations, after using saws 40 years you prob have some carpal tunnel or a bit of arthritis. All you haters, go run a 461 through a big fat hardwood stump at ground level then run a new STIHL 400 or even a500 I right after that and tell me what you find out. If reliability is the issue, and you only have one saw, I can see your point. I have enough saws with me when I work that I have never not been able to finish work because of no saw running. Stop worrying about it and buy two of them and keep an old one for backup, which you may rarely or never even need.
461's are rubber damped, not springs, and are known to be vibrators. And reliable.
many spring-vibe older-ish saws are pretty smooth. And not floppy...
tech for tech sake is junk.
many spring-vibe older-ish saws are pretty smooth. And not floppy...
tech for tech sake is junk.
Three year old thread.....
And there are still problems
NHden
ArboristSite Member
Coming from electronics, M-tronics scares the doo doo out of me because I know what's inside. Bought an MS261 last fall, non M-tronic, one of the happier moments of my life (in chainsaws, that is). Bought an MS201TC-M last week, probably the last saw of my life (per wife). One of the more dubious moments of my life. Why?
+ Lack of M-tronics skilled techs (not a concern for me)
+ long term availability of parts
+ long term availability of A part - example, I need two parts right now for something else, Stihl has MD'ed one of them. Suppose that one is the ignition module that goes with the replacement flywheel?
+ compatibility of replacement parts over time (i.e. new ignition module won't play with flywheel, or carb, now need to buy several or all new parts. I hear of a lot of mixing and matching going on to try and make a saw cut, idle, keep running, starting
* IMHO, the solenoid/valve represents a fair danger. Time will tell. Check dead engines, pistons, cylinders in 5 years for the most common cause of death
If the firmware (instructions that the micro runs) screws up, you could run lean, if the valve screws up, you could run lean. Again, IMHO based on other (non saw) systems, that valve will be very sensitive to dirt, damage and wear.
I welcome any comment from a Stihl engineering person, but if that valve does not have position feedback to the micro, the micro has no idea that when it asked for 60%, it actually got 30%. because of dirt, cold, etc. Not a 2 cycle expert but working on it. This is not good.
Not to scare anyone but if you have good support in your area and don't keep saws for a long time, have at it.
I am a Stihl fan, have had some tools for 20 years. If someone from Stihl tells me that the valve has positional feedback, I will run out to my garage and kiss the MS201TC-M.
+ Lack of M-tronics skilled techs (not a concern for me)
+ long term availability of parts
+ long term availability of A part - example, I need two parts right now for something else, Stihl has MD'ed one of them. Suppose that one is the ignition module that goes with the replacement flywheel?
+ compatibility of replacement parts over time (i.e. new ignition module won't play with flywheel, or carb, now need to buy several or all new parts. I hear of a lot of mixing and matching going on to try and make a saw cut, idle, keep running, starting
* IMHO, the solenoid/valve represents a fair danger. Time will tell. Check dead engines, pistons, cylinders in 5 years for the most common cause of death
If the firmware (instructions that the micro runs) screws up, you could run lean, if the valve screws up, you could run lean. Again, IMHO based on other (non saw) systems, that valve will be very sensitive to dirt, damage and wear.
I welcome any comment from a Stihl engineering person, but if that valve does not have position feedback to the micro, the micro has no idea that when it asked for 60%, it actually got 30%. because of dirt, cold, etc. Not a 2 cycle expert but working on it. This is not good.
Not to scare anyone but if you have good support in your area and don't keep saws for a long time, have at it.
I am a Stihl fan, have had some tools for 20 years. If someone from Stihl tells me that the valve has positional feedback, I will run out to my garage and kiss the MS201TC-M.
KostasVolos
ArboristSite Operative
Since you know electronics ,all you have to do is check how
many wires are connected to the valve .
If there's a common ground with the high voltage circuit ( spark plug ) ,a single wire means that there's no feedback signal going to the mcu .
If there are two wires,then most probably the second wire is for valve position feedback.
But in case that there's no common "ground" / "case" then two wires means no feedback,
while three wires means that there's a feedback signal.
My hard guess ,since there's a diagnostic port present,is that
there's indeed a valve position feedback signaling .
After all it is the only output that the MCU controls.
All the rest of the circuitry are mainly inputs ( sensors ) ,from
what I'm aware of ( do not own any MTronic equipment myself ) .
In general ,I have to agree with you.
Furthermore ,I can justify the use of such auto-tuning circuits to
be present mainly on home-owner grade equipment,since most of the people using that kind of equipment do not actually know how to tune a carburetor.
But all this fuss and trouble for pro grade tools ,that is something I do not get.Most professionals do know how to tune a carb ,let
alone that many of them can repair the equipment by themselves ....
Now ,that is a very good reason why Stihl equip only the pro level tools with M-tronic .
This way ,most pros are obligated to bring their power tools to a
Stihl service.No more lost money for Stihl ,from owners servicing their ( quite expensive ... ) pro tools by themselves.
All it takes ( or rather "took " ) is ( was )a small screwdriver to tune
a carb.
So ,me thinks M-tronic does not really serve purposes like ease of use ,emissions ,etc.
Mtronic brings (previously lost ) money back to the Stihl house .
I'm a Stihl dude myself.Germans make great machines and tools.
As also they have always used very carefully planned methods to strip the wealth from their unsuspicious victims .
Two world wars and the modern destruction of EU economy and society for the profit of Germany are rock-solid proofs of that.
The computer can also monitor how the saw is running, and get a good idea of what the valve is actually doing vs. what command was called for, even with no feedback on the position of the valve itself.
M-tronic has years of history, and is a proven system at this point. People seem to forget that carbs have issues too.
KostasVolos
ArboristSite Operative
Mtronic does not use a "computer" ,but a microcontroller.
Like : Raspberry platform is a mini computer ,while Arduino is a microcontroller.
A microcontroller can have many inputs like : temperature sensors ,atm.pressure sensors ,etc and from their signals can control an output ( like a solenoid valve ) .
A dirty or clogged valve will affect the operation of the engine ,thus the sensors will signal the mcu that something is wrong or very wrong .Unfortunately ,the mcu can not pinpoint with precision where the trouble is located ,especially if a crucial input is missing ( like the valve position sensor ) .The MCU will try to prevent catastrophic failure by limiting the revs or by killing the engine off.
So ,the more sensors (inputs) present ,the more precise the control of the output .
And since the output is a solenoid valve ,a very basic sensor needed for absolute control of it ,is it's "position"/"state" one .
A mini computer uses more space to accomodate ,more power to operate and it is rather finicky /sensitive to harsh environments ( like vibrations ,high voltage RFI/EMI ,dirt ,etc ) .
And it would cost much more to implement on a chainsaw for example,versus to an MCU
( which BTW is rather "bulletproof" in comparison with the former ) .
Dirt affects regular carbs too, use the search function and try to prove me wrong. This systems has been out since 2012 ish, and gone through plenty of revisions to get to the point were at now. It's a non problem. Plenty of saws have parts availability issues, once they get so old, or fall out of public favor they go the way of the dodo bird. Just facts of life.
KostasVolos
ArboristSite Operative
Here's another fact of life :
vs
Evolution .
An abacus vs a digital calculator .
Both used for mathematical calculations .
The abacus needs some training
( and brains ) to use ,it's slow,big and heavy .But,it does not use batteries (or any other form of energy ) ,it is easy to repair and probably will last more than a lifetime.
On the opposite corner ,sits the digital calculator .Small ,light and eye-blinking fast .But once there are not batteries available or it malfunctions it is useless .Not even worth as a paper weight.
Usually the evolution of technology makes things easier for human muscles and brains.
But there's always at least one culprit and usually has to do with the service life (longetivity).
A matter of choice .
There are chainsaws from the '70s era that are still used today ,
almost 50 years ( or even more than that ) after their production date.
I really wonder ,would they be any Mtronic chainsaws still operational after 50 years from now?
Oh ,I know ...
Who cares ,by then -those who would be still walking and cutting wood -most probably will be using the latest tech AI equipped chainsaws.Those that sharpen the chain automatically when needed ,warn you if there's a nail ahead into the cut and auto counteract a kickback .
Maybe...
NHden
ArboristSite Member
Elsewhere it has been mentioned that you can test the valve with a 9v battery. So let's assume that the drive signal to it is zero to 9v. Also, it's been mentioned that the valve is fed by a 30Hz signal. Put these together and you have a drive signal of amplitude 0v to 9v and where the duty factor of the 30Hz would have to control the 0 - 100% flow rate.
My concern was lack of feedback but of course, I forgot that RPM is the primary feedback. This implies that it may be a good idea to calibrate / reset the saw whenever operating conditions change. Of course, dirt is a variable so the calibration may protect you for a while, and if the dirt dislodged, you would get more fuel but no harm done in that direction.
The wire count doesn't mean much today. Two wires can carry power, data with a protocol, and other odd signals time multiplexed. I should probably read the Stihl patent for further insight but my instinct says get ready for the non-M conversion
Some folks have observed LIN protocol signals, swapped with other signals, time dependent. A LIN or other simple protocol on a serial bus would allow the micro to examine part type or even part numbers on various components. As a matter of fact, this may be why (again, hearsay) Stihl now allows reprogramming of some FLASH memory in the system. That FLASH is likely on board the micro. Many micros support several regions of FLASH, some protected against accidental erasure. An algorithm in the MDG1 or future system would unlock a protected area to update it. And they have to be smart here. You need to write and verify your new code before erasing the old
As part numbers and characteristics evolve, this makes sense. Stihl would be dead in the water in a few years if it only supported numbers that were active a few years back.
NHden
ArboristSite Member
Well, yeah but dirt is still more of a problem because you now have micro sized parts, seals, which bring new lube challenges into play. It sounds like the system has improved a lot over the past years and it had to, otherwise Stihl would not be able to continue it.
Your dodo bird is a case well taken. If you only need basic wood cutting, a simple saw can last 60 years or more. If you need fancy machining or 3D printing, the lifetime of that system will be quite short in comparison. The only way to maintain fancy stuff is to keep a room full of spares for posterity. I know of several industries and companies who routinely do this.
NHden
ArboristSite Member
Apologies to the OP if this has drifted a bit. It only shows the depth to which technology can take a simple tool. On some tools (my digital oscilloscope for instance) I welcome it. On my chain saws and other cutters, I don't.
But again, as long as you have local support you should be fine either way.
But again, as long as you have local support you should be fine either way.
KostasVolos
ArboristSite Operative
So ,you think its an analog output control ( 0-9 Volts ) ?Elsewhere it has been mentioned that you can test the valve with a 9v battery. So let's assume that the drive signal to it is zero to 9v. Also, it's been mentioned that the valve is fed by a 30Hz signal. Put these together and you have a drive signal of amplitude 0v to 9v and where the duty factor of the 30Hz would have to control the 0 - 100% flow rate.
My concern was lack of feedback but of course, I forgot that RPM is the primary feedback. This implies that it may be a good idea to calibrate / reset the saw whenever operating conditions change. Of course, dirt is a variable so the calibration may protect you for a while, and if the dirt dislodged, you would get more fuel but no harm done in that direction.
The wire count doesn't mean much today. Two wires can carry power, data with a protocol, and other odd signals time multiplexed. I should probably read the Stihl patent for further insight but my instinct says get ready for the non-M conversion
Some folks have observed LIN protocol signals, swapped with other signals, time dependent. A LIN or other simple protocol on a serial bus would allow the micro to examine part type or even part numbers on various components. As a matter of fact, this may be why (again, hearsay) Stihl now allows reprogramming of some FLASH memory in the system. That FLASH is likely on board the micro. Many micros support several regions of FLASH, some protected against accidental erasure. An algorithm in the MDG1 or future system would unlock a protected area to update it. And they have to be smart here. You need to write and verify your new code before erasing the old
As part numbers and characteristics evolve, this makes sense. Stihl would be dead in the water in a few years if it only supported numbers that were active a few years back.
I think it is digital.
0 V is OFF and 9 V is ON .
30Hz can be the freq of a PWM signal .
It's duty cycle can be the one that controls how much the valve opens or closes .
Assuming it is an ordinary 8-bit MCU ,
then the solenoid valve has 1,023 positions between fully closed (0) and fully open (1,024 ).
NHden
ArboristSite Member
I'm sorry, you are correct. And the micro can generate this easily (with driver transistors for the 9V and current needs). Many have PWM ports so you don't have to fiddle with bits.
KostasVolos
ArboristSite Operative
It can be a power MOSFET as a "switch" for driving the valve .
Although,come to think it better ,a MOSFET will be prone to the capacitance created by the spark plug cable and it is not the best solution for driving a solenoid valve on a chainsaw.Most probably you're right.They have to be using ordinary transistors .
NHden
ArboristSite Member
I would assume mosfets. I use "transistor" loosely. There is another site, don't know if it can be mentioned here, that has a breakdown of pieces including the PCB on the ignition module, after being excavated out of potting compound. But you bring up a good point. The electric field around the spark plug wire is huge. This needs to be taken into account in general. Good PCB design helps, along with RC or suppression devices on signals that require it.
Also, time is on your side. You can take your measurements and make decisions X amount of time after a disturbing signal (like the spark and its decay) has expired
But we're diving deeper away from saws.
No accountants are still using an abicus, just as no production feller is using a saw from the 90's. By your logic, we should keep a cross cut saw in the back of the buggy in case the scary power saw fails...
