What Stihl for a 28 inch bar?

[OM617YOTA]

@Bludenz Too lean can burn down the whole saw. Make sure you pull the muffler and look at the p&c on that 461. If they won't let you, walk away.

 

[muddy42]

28 inch bar buried fully in hard wood for long periods. For me thats >90 cc territory. Yes you can make smaller saws work a 28 inch bar occasionally but they wont like it.

 

[MustangMike]

If they are properly ported a 77cc saw will pull full comp chain quite well in hardwood.

I have both a ported 460 and a ported 044/046 that do it well.

My ported 066 + 660s pull well with 3' bars.

 

[MustangMike]

There can be many reasons for excessive heat including running too lean and a clogged flywheel (the fins on the flywheel act like a fan to cool the cylinder). If they are not free of debris, they will not work well.

Sounds like that 461 got very hot. Make sure the cylinder is not scored and none of the rubber is melted.

Also, if you are planning on running 28" full comp in Ozzie Hardwood, I would want it to be ported.

 

[Bludenz]

@Bludenz Too lean can burn down the whole saw. Make sure you pull the muffler and look at the p&c on that 461. If they won't let you, walk away.

I can only say good things about David Major, very honest person and sends whatever pictures I ask for Still chatting with him to work something out.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Hello,

Trying to figure out what saw I want to get.

1) Would run a 28 inch bar and chain full time - hard wood, bar would be buried. (Wood is gum, lots of different species, and Peppermint tree, aka Agonis Flexuosa)
2) budget is roughly 1000aud, or approx 700usd
3) Preferably Stihl, that is what I have parts/tools for, also most dealers in my area only sell Stihl parts...
4) I don't mind if it is either m-tronic, or manual carb.
5) I'd rather not port saws, I'd like to keep mine OEM

I've read good things about the 461, so that's what I've been looking for. I've been looking for quite a while and these are rather rare, or very expensive here in Aus. I've also read good things about the 044, however I've heard some people say that a 24 inch bar is it's sweet spot, can anyone confirm? Other than that, I've looked at the 661c-m, which comes up occasionally for okay prices. I've also heard not so good things about the 441, apparently, "every company has a lemon, and the 441 falls into that catagory", again, can anyone confirm/deny thing?

I'd love a project 461, etc... however those just don't ever come up. A project saw for sale in Australia is extremely rare... I'm hoping that David Major on this forum can find a project 461 for me to purchase, his last one was already sold when I inquired about it

So, what saw do you recommend for me to purchase?

Thanks in advance!

090

 

[Bludenz]

090

Too old for my taste... Don't really like the looks of it.

I know it would get the job done, but I also would assume that there are a lack of parts available for it due to its age... Additionally, the few times one of those pops up here, they are priced well over 1400usd (converted). Doesn't fit in my budget either...

 

[Bludenz]

Purchased a stock, all OEM excellent condition Stihl MS461 from David Major. Very good seller and no complaints at all. Will update this thread when the package arrives.

Thanks everyone for your advice!

 

[fields_mj]

For what little its worth, I run a 28" bar within .404 full comp chain on my 064 and G660. They both run it fine. I mostly use the bar on large oak (red and white both), locust, and hickory. I don't have a 70cc saw to try it on, but I think a 461 would struggle if you're going to feed it a steady diet of +28" hardwood. If you're running a semi-skip chain might help a 461 a lot.

 

[Bludenz]

For what little its worth, I run a 28" bar within .404 full comp chain on my 064 and G660. They both run it fine. I mostly use the bar on large oak (red and white both), locust, and hickory. I don't have a 70cc saw to try it on, but I think a 461 would struggle if you're going to feed it a steady diet of +28" hardwood. If you're running a semi-skip chain might help a 461 a lot.

Thanks for your reply! Any advice on what chain to go with for a 28inch bar? 0.063, .404? What6 are the differences, which one is better. David included a 20 inch oregon bar and chain for a little extra, so at least I've got something to use!

David has also sent the tracking details for the saw - very good seller and I'm very happy so far. Fedex tracking shows estimated delivery in 1-4 days from Central Europe --> Western Australia! Highly recommended seller so far!

 

[fields_mj]

I'm running 404 because the bar and chain came with the 064 when I bought it (used). To me, the cutters on a 404 chain are a little longer so I think I get more life out of it but I don't have any data to say whether that is true or not. I think the cutters also stand a little taller relative to the depth gauges so they tend to take a litter bigger bite too. I also like that the 404 chain has a little more space for chips. With the bar mostly buried, I don't feel like the saw has any problems getting chips out. I have very little experience with 3/8 chain, so I can't really speak as to whether its a better option or not. I will say that for +80cc saws, I like the idea of running thicker (.063) drive links.

All of that said, I think a big consideration should be given to what you're using on your other saws, or even what is the 20" bar that came with the saw? My other saws are all running 18" and 20" loops of .325 x .062 chain so there has never been a reason for me to put any effort into working with 3/8. If your 20" bar, your other saws, or other's you cut with generally run 3/8 x .050 (for example), then that's what I'd probably recommend for the 28" bar. Keeping things the same and minimize the number of other support tools you need to maintain everything.

 

[Bludenz]

Thanks for your reply again, very helpful.

Looks like I've got some reading to do into chains and their different types and applications I haven't asked David Major what gauge the bar and chain is, but it's an Oregon 20" bar and chain. Saw delivery time is 1-4 days, so I'll have an answer anywhere from now till Tuesday next week about the specs of that bar.

Good idea with keeping the bars the same gauge (i think thats what you call it?). I'd prefer to not swap the rim every time I want to change bars!

 

[pioneerguy600]

Thanks for your reply again, very helpful.

Looks like I've got some reading to do into chains and their different types and applications I haven't asked David Major what gauge the bar and chain is, but it's an Oregon 20" bar and chain. Saw delivery time is 1-4 days, so I'll have an answer anywhere from now till Tuesday next week about the specs of that bar.

Good idea with keeping the bars the same gauge (i think thats what you call it?). I'd prefer to not swap the rim every time I want to change bars!

You will not need to swap the rim if you stay with the same pitch ie 3/8" in any gauge will run on the rim, they are not gauge specific but if you wanted to swap between pitches like .404 and 3/8' you would need to swap out the rim for each pitch change. The slots in the rim drive are large enough to accept all common chain gauges.

 

[Bludenz]

Very helpful, thank you! Any pointers to a thread on here that explains all the chain types? Pitches, gauges, skip, semi chisel, etc... Looks like I've got a bit of reading ahead of me.

 

[pioneerguy600]

Very helpful, thank you! Any pointers to a thread on here that explains all the chain types? Pitches, gauges, skip, semi chisel, etc... Looks like I've got a bit of reading ahead of me.

Sorry I don`t but there is one fellow that talks chain a whole lot, his site name is Philbert, I will see what threads I can find and report back. I grew up with running all sizes of chainsaws from the lowly 50cc types up to the 132cc classes, chains of all types cutters wise , pitches and gauges and can see where it would be confusing for those that did not.

 

[fields_mj]

Yes, its called the gauge. There was a recent post on here asking about chains and technical information. There were some really good responses to it. Here's my personal summary. My apologies if its stuff you already know.

325, 3/8, and 404 are pitch (ie the length of the drive links). Full chisel (sometimes called chisel) and semi chisel are the shape of the actual cutter. Skip, semi skip, and full complement (or full house) refer to whether or not any of the the cutters are left off of the chain. Full comp has 1 cutter for every 2 drive links, semi skip has 1 cutter for every 3 drive links, and skip (or full skip) has a cutter for every 4 drive links. The advantage to skip and semi skip is that they have more clearance for removing chips on long bars. They also have fewer cutters in the wood at any given time meaning they don't require quite as much power to run the chain. To me, 28" is marginal as far as needing a skip chain for chip clearance. If you're running it on an 461 or 462, it might be worth running a semi skip chain to see if you like it more than a full comp. Skip chains also have fewer cutters to sharpen, but that means they fewer cutters are doing the work which then means they need sharpened more often so its not really an advantage in my opinion. I would anticipate that the skip chains would feel a little more grabby if cutting smaller stuff, but I'm not sure if that's true or not. I do have a 42" bar that I run a full skip chain on, but I don't run it very often, and I've never run it in anything under 30". Not even sure if I've ever run it in anything under 36".

The 20" bar is most likely a 3/8, but it would be good to find out what the gauge is. Keeping the pitch and gauge the same isn't required, but I like standardizing when I can.

Personally, I don't mind having to change the rim out when I switch bars and chains. If I'm running a shorter bar, I'd rather have an 8 pin rim to get more chain speed. Rims and e clips are small, so I keep spares in my tool box (along with bar nuts). In fact, I keep an assortment of rims in my tool box. In your case, I'd make sure I tried a 7 pin and an 8 pin both with both a full house and a semi skip chain to see which I liked best. I'll probably get flamed for this, but I never give much thought to running a new rim with an older chain or visa versa. In my mind they are like gear teeth, and baring something extraordinary happening, I rarely replace a rim, and my cutters are filed away before I ever consider what the condition of the actual drive links are in. The exception to all of this would be if I were running different gauges of chain. THEN I would want to use different rims because I wouldn't want to run a .050 chain on a rim for a while and then try running a 063 gauge chain on it. I can see where that could cause some binding issues. All of my chains are 063.

 

[fields_mj]

Here are a couple of relatively recent threads on chains.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/identify-a-chain-chain-nomenclature-and-types.375703/

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/technical-saw-chain-discussion.376121/

 

[OM617YOTA]

I'd call around to the local saw shops and ask what chain type they sell the most of and have the most options on hand for, and set up your saw to run that. There will be individual differences that will make one chain type more ideal than others for a specific saw for a specific application, but mostly meaningless for casual homeowner or firewood guys.

 

[pioneerguy600]

Yes, its called the gauge. There was a recent post on here asking about chains and technical information. There were some really good responses to it. Here's my personal summary. My apologies if its stuff you already know.

325, 3/8, and 404 are pitch (ie the length of the drive links). Full chisel (sometimes called chisel) and semi chisel are the shape of the actual cutter. Skip, semi skip, and full complement (or full house) refer to whether or not any of the the cutters are left off of the chain. Full comp has 1 cutter for every 2 drive links, semi skip has 1 cutter for every 3 drive links, and skip (or full skip) has a cutter for every 4 drive links. The advantage to skip and semi skip is that they have more clearance for removing chips on long bars. They also have fewer cutters in the wood at any given time meaning they don't require quite as much power to run the chain. To me, 28" is marginal as far as needing a skip chain for chip clearance. If you're running it on an 461 or 462, it might be worth running a semi skip chain to see if you like it more than a full comp. Skip chains also have fewer cutters to sharpen, but that means they fewer cutters are doing the work which then means they need sharpened more often so its not really an advantage in my opinion. I would anticipate that the skip chains would feel a little more grabby if cutting smaller stuff, but I'm not sure if that's true or not. I do have a 42" bar that I run a full skip chain on, but I don't run it very often, and I've never run it in anything under 30". Not even sure if I've ever run it in anything under 36".

The 20" bar is most likely a 3/8, but it would be good to find out what the gauge is. Keeping the pitch and gauge the same isn't required, but I like standardizing when I can.

Personally, I don't mind having to change the rim out when I switch bars and chains. If I'm running a shorter bar, I'd rather have an 8 pin rim to get more chain speed. Rims and e clips are small, so I keep spares in my tool box (along with bar nuts). In fact, I keep an assortment of rims in my tool box. In your case, I'd make sure I tried a 7 pin and an 8 pin both with both a full house and a semi skip chain to see which I liked best. I'll probably get flamed for this, but I never give much thought to running a new rim with an older chain or visa versa. In my mind they are like gear teeth, and baring something extraordinary happening, I rarely replace a rim, and my cutters are filed away before I ever consider what the condition of the actual drive links are in. The exception to all of this would be if I were running different gauges of chain. THEN I would want to use different rims because I wouldn't want to run a .050 chain on a rim for a while and then try running a 062 gauge chain on it. I can see where that could cause some binding issues. All of my chains are 062.

Where do you find .062 gauge chains?

 

[fields_mj]

Where do you find .062 gauge chains?

Sorry, your right. Its 063.