Man dies while trimming tree.12-18-03

[Gypo Logger]

Tree climbing and logging are probably about as dangerous as being a Brinks Gaurd.
Who know's what happened to our befallen cohort, but I bet his mind wasn't on the job.
We must be comfortable with our surroundings and what we are doing.
Everything in life is a calculated risk, whether it's marriage or simply walking across a busy intersection, but we don't let the risks cloud or mind or take the fun out of it.
There are people out there that will jump into a shark tank with no defence but their wits and their knowledge of the mammal, however , you couldn't catch me in a shark tank unless I was in an impervious cage.
My whole point is we can't log or climb from a cage, rather, we pay our money and we take our chances and learn as we go and develope as many angles of escape as possible that suites ones disposition. Knowing full well what can happen and a healthy respect is what keeps us alive. Not to mention that it's either in your blood or it's not. If it's not, then we should get out of the business.
John

 

[Hemlock]

What makes this one difficult for me to figure out is the guys age. A little too long in the tooth to be trying a move like that with little or no experience. I've seen alot of younger men with ignorance, lack of training, something to prove, showing off, or a pretty strong delusion of invincibility (speaking from first hand experience on all accounts), that might get into this kind of accident. Sure wish I knew why he decided to make that move.

 

[Dan F]

Hemlock-
I can understand the age thing. Quite simply, he probably didn't know any better.

We used a local "hack" in September to do some clearing for us. He was telling my boss and I about cutting chunks off of a fallen tree while sitting on the log. Made no mention of any kind of safety gear while doing this. I can't remember exactly what he described, but I do remember thinking at the time that he probably could have found a safer way. This is a guy who has been in business for quite a while, and is close to the age of the man who got this whole thread started. Heck, I'd be surprised if the local guy had a harness/lanyard to use in his bucket truck. I doubt he climbs with a rope (I'd be EXTREMELY surprised if he did), and I doubt he does much off of spikes.

Anyway, my point is that age really has no relation to the accident. Darwin award winners come in all ages.


Dan

 

[Hemlock]

Yeah, there's always that Dan. We had a snow storm up here followed by freezing rain and from what I could see the older drivers were trying thier best not to spinout and the kids were trying thier best to spin out! I've found that people who have been in or around serious accidents have a healthy fear for anything that can take them out of the drivers seat in a heartbeat and put them on a stretcher. It is indeed a terrible feeling to lose control when the stakes are so high. A man might not get a do-over.
One of the things that I noticed right off as a newby to this forum is how sincere most arborists are about safety. Alot of people you work with talk a good show but that's only because they think it's "politically correct". I can understand when a guy loses his temper and I have seen a few men grieve this way when a man was hurt bad or died in an accident. I guess my point is that I'm glad for this forum because other dangerous occupations don't have anywhere to hash things out and have to settle with the old "thats the way it goes, when yer numbers up.. yer numbers up".... I'm gonna remember this discussion.

 

[RescueMan]

What happened to American self-reliance?

As someone who is NOT a professional tree-climber, I found it interesting to hear some of you speak disparagingly about the possibility that this was a home-owner doing work that he should have hired a pro to do.

I hear this attitude in all professional fields: the MD disapproves of a patient taking herbal self-help remedies, the psychologist considers family- or community-based counselling to be amateurish and ineffective , the plumbers trade organizations get laws passed making it illegal for a homeowner to do their own plumbing repairs...

It's easy to forget that this nation was built by self-reliant men and women who did EVERYTHING for themselves, or traded their skills for those of their neighbors. Nowadays every professional is self-protective of their "turf".

I like to see people at least getting the training or advice to do things properly and safely, but everyone has the right to do their own work - whether it's because they can't afford to hire a pro or because they simply want the satisfaction of doing it themselves -and everyone who does needs to accept the possible consequences of their decisions and actions.

- Robert

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

What does the rock comunity say about day trippers who get caught out on a ledge? Or knock debris down pitch or any number of stupid human tricks that proper training may have avoided.

I do not agree with the negativity used for it's own sake, but we all have seen people enguaged in activites where they are getting in over their heads. Where luck is a bigger factor in survival then forethought.

I've stopped and finnished jobs for a nominal amount on some occasions.

 

[RescueMan]

The problem, as far as I'm concerned, is not people doing foolish things that impact on themselves (that's called thinning of the herd - the Darwin thing), but people doing foolish things that impact on others.

The rescue community is starting to shift gears now that more fools are out-and-about and is beginning to charge for the cost of rescues necessitated by unprepared people going beyond their comfort zone, while serving for free those who are simply the victims of bad luck. Alaska has been billing rescue costs on Denali (Mt. McKinley) for some time, and NH Fish & Game has begun charging in the White Mountains for foolish mistakes (the money they collect is distributed to the volunteer SAR teams who do the grunt work). So far, all those who were billed in NH have been glad to pay for being alive and the media attention might discourage others from making similar mistakes.

- Robert

 

[Eagle1]

Very nooble of you to say those kind words about the "American Way". Unfortunitly the man made a life changing decision to do what sounds like a difficult tree job. All the posts regarding the fact that he didn't hire someone dosen't mean that we all are high and mighty. It means that we do tree work everyday, all day. Some of us are arborists, training, years of experience, etc. So, that being said, I (we) think he bad a bad judgement call performing a large leader takedown.

We all make mistakes.

I have a herniated disk in my neck. I am not going to cut myself open and attempt to fix it.

 

[wiley_p]

I'm wondering one thing, does everyone who points out the hazard of working alone really understand whats involved? I am against anyone working alone, for one reason it takes a lot of commitment mentally as well as physically. I do it frequently, but I do everything I can to be successful, and am very aware of the chance that something may go wrong, and a small accident can be fatal. My job has risks, every day we all plan, execute and cleanup. Some jobs require that some tasks may be undertaken solo.(someone always knows where I am and what I,m doing.) Tomorrow for instance(if its not blowing) I'm going to move my rigging to another tree Doesnt require anyone on the ground smoking cigs and watching me move.

 

[NeTree]

Ditto.

Wanna know how many guys I've seen buried in my day?

 

[wiley_p]

Rocky, do you really never climb alone consult, cable anything?

 

[wiley_p]

Yes, its not the best gig, but we undertake so many things with 2 strikes against us and pull it off, due to experience, and skillset. I'm no advocate for working alone but I can make my own decisions for me with a full understanding of the consequences. There is a chance that someone some day will say " idiot shouldn't have been working alone" but not if I keep my s... together. simple as that. I'm not in the situation that som e are theres things that need to get done that wont up and do themselves.

 

[Eagle1]

At least they will know the secret code for 911 if necessary.

Secret code? Is 911 a secret?

 

[geofore]

alone

Wiley-p, read chainsaw death, Brenan was working alone and his friend knew where he was going to be. He lost his life working alone, doing what he had done many times before, cutting firewood. By the time he was missed and his friend was asked to go looking for him it was too late. I would think any onlooker that could dial 911 would have been better than none.
If you fall out of a tree and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Umm, Brian was being sarcastic???

For most jobs, I will not work alone. Sometimes I have when it is simple work. I'ts not just the safety aspect, but the efficiency. If my rope gets fouled, saw dropped, I want something from the truck I did not think i needed at first....

 

[wiley_p]

Yes geofore I read the first post and it would seem, and I'm not being cruel here but it seemed that there were several decisions that were made by the deceased that were far more serious than working alone. Let's not forget although it may be possible that some freak thing occured but regardless the individual made a mistake that if someone would have been there, they would have had to call 911. So the fact that he was working alone is moot as far as I'm concerned, I dont make choices in this line of work with my "ace in the hole" being the fact that someone is there to see trauma live and calling 911. Don't you see.

 

[2 Guys With Saw]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
My first guess:
He wasn't qualified or equipped to climb the tree safely, most likely a 'ladder high' tree service. He cut a 40' lead from 15' up in the tree? Doesn't sound like a climber to me. Another lawn man trying to do something he doesn't understand. These stories need to be publicised more so homeowners hire QUALIFIED people.

Second point- Never work alone. Even if the groundman cannot drag brush, I want someone around who knows the secret code for 911 if necessary. You don't dive alone and you don't climb alone. Words to LIVE by.

I agree you should have someone on the graound when in a tree. However reality is that it is not always possible and the job still needs to be done. With the proper training and safetys in place it is no different than having a groundsman. I too have done some diving alone and am a certified P.A.D.I openwater diver, this is reality.

 

[igetbisy]

Groundman? whats that, i dont want anybody on the ground for christ sakes!, I'm about to drop a 1000# peice of wood there, stay out of the way.
sorry to joke about the unfortunate fella, I'm really just in a joking mood reading all of the posts arguing about something that there's not enough info about to draw conclusion anyway.
lets just throw in some "let's suppose"'s or something, lets suppose he was a pro.

"FIGHT"

 

[murphy4trees]

I'll one up that... I like to see at least two people on the ground for most climbing situations... That extra set of eyeballs can prevent a miscommunication leading to disaster..

 

[Eagle1]

I'm about to drop a 1000# peice of wood there, stay out of the way.

I hope for Gods sake that there is no lawn under the tree, or sod, or an irrigation system. If you had a ground man you could cut that in fours and lower the pieces. No mess on the gound, less work for you, and you save the integrity of the Earth below.