Moral conundrum.

[Pelorus]

I sat him down and told him he was being taken advantage of.

That business agreement is between the company and the new hire. Not you.
What you are doing is meddling. Trying to poison the new guy's mind.
Not professional.

 

[troythetreeman]

Anything less than 2 weeks and following through may be short sighted. If you are well connected and don't ever expect to need to apply/interview for employment, screw them.
If you were interviewing a prospective employee that had left previous employers without notice, would you hire them? Maybe I would but it would be for the McJob positions not a critical position within the company.

You're right, I am not worried about work, I have subcontracted with several smaller companies in the past, several of which I have touched base with and I will be the guy they call when they need climbing done. I also have a CDL so there is that option as well. It is also worth noting that in Minnesota if anyone calls my former employer all he can legally say about me is that I did indeed work there, when I worked there and what position I held. He can not legally tell them if I quit, if I was fired, if I was the best employee he ever had or if I was the worst.

 

[BC WetCoast]

I see no ethical issues here unless they put this kid in the tree with no one to train him. If he was put in the tree as a crew leader and climber with only a groundie, then that would be business suicide. Is there a trainer with him?

As per your bitch about wages, we start people at $13, so what. The wage he is hired at is the business of the owner and the employee, not yours. If the kid didn't like the wage, he could have stayed at Cabelas.

We run through lots of guys, some experienced, some green. You're sounding like one of the **** disturbing whiners we get through here.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Are you jealous because the power above you may have found a diamond in the rough? Because I know that scene.
Jeff opcorn:

 

[troythetreeman]

That business agreement is between the company and the new hire. Not you.
What you are doing is meddling. Trying to poison the new guy's mind.
Not professional.

There was a time I would have agreed with that. There was a lot more to what I told him then just, "they are taking advantage of you." I did not poison his mind, I told him what I thought and offered my advise as someone seasoned in this industry, honestly and objectively. I also told him to learn everything they can teach you if that's what you want to do. I told him about my personal experiences, to consider carefully where you loyalties lie. I know what it means to be taken advantage of, underpaid and expected to do things that I was not ready for, my zeal and desire to do it does not excuse the fact that it was done.

 

[KenJax Tree]

Hey Jeff i got called into the owners office this morning and i was asked if i wanted to take a salary position being an Op's guy lol. I said only if i get a company Escalade like the guys in SoCal.



Sent from my Autotune Carb

 

[troythetreeman]

I see no ethical issues here unless they put this kid in the tree with no one to train him. If he was put in the tree as a crew leader and climber with only a groundie, then that would be business suicide. Is there a trainer with him?

As per your ***** about wages, we start people at $13, so what. The wage he is hired at is the business of the owner and the employee, not yours. If the kid didn't like the wage, he could have stayed at Cabelas.

We run through lots of guys, some experienced, some green. You're sounding like one of the **** disturbing whiners we get through here.

He has a trainer and they are starting him low and slow. I don't like that he didn't pay his dues on the ground but that isn't really the issue here. The starting wage is where I drew the line, it's the lowest starting wage in the history of the company. I have been through all this. This kid is being trained to do what I do. There are dozens of small tree companies in Minnesota who will pay a good climber 20%. For me to enable anyone else to pay someone that much less not only hurts that kid, it hurts me and everyone else who does what I do. There is no way I would climb a tree for 13$ an hour. If you can't afford to pay your help you're bidding your jobs wrong.

 

[troythetreeman]

Are you jealous because the power above you may have found a diamond in the rough? Because I know that scene.
Jeff opcorn:

No, not jealous, I hope that kid finds out he loves climbing, if I'm going to be completely honest I did watch him a little and he seems to have a natural affinity. I was ready to walk away from this company before he ever got hired on. It's hard to leave a 40+ hour a week tree gig in Minnesota in the winter. On a side note, you might be pleased to hear I have made the transition to spikeless. Still on the fence about getting certified tho, the lack there of really only effects my value to larger companies which I'm not inclined to work for anyhow. Well see what I do next, I'm not ready to get out of the tree but I am feeling more and more inclined to keeping myself in a position where I can say, "yeah, no, I don't want to climb that one."

 

[jefflovstrom]

Ah,,! To be young!
Jeff

 

[woodchuck357]

With a trainer and starting low and slow, maybe he should be paying the company for the schooling. When I started working tree service I worked a short time on the ground, but the day I started I was a better climber than anyone on the crew. This crap about everyone should work as a groundie for a specified period of time is crazy, I have trained several people to work in trees from the first day we got together and for the most part paid them little or nothing for the first few days they spent climbing because they were contributing nothing at that time. They were costing me productivity by tying up a good climber and slowing everything else down. Spending time as a brush dragger or line tender doesn't help much when you start to climb.

 

[dieselfitter]

You're right, I am not worried about work, I have subcontracted with several smaller companies in the past, several of which I have touched base with and I will be the guy they call when they need climbing done. I also have a CDL so there is that option as well. It is also worth noting that in Minnesota if anyone calls my former employer all he can legally say about me is that I did indeed work there, when I worked there and what position I held. He can not legally tell them if I quit, if I was fired, if I was the best employee he ever had or if I was the worst.

I would still do my time.

 

[troythetreeman]

With a trainer and starting low and slow, maybe he should be paying the company for the schooling. When I started working tree service I worked a short time on the ground, but the day I started I was a better climber than anyone on the crew. This crap about everyone should work as a groundie for a specified period of time is crazy, I have trained several people to work in trees from the first day we got together and for the most part paid them little or nothing for the first few days they spent climbing because they were contributing nothing at that time. They were costing me productivity by tying up a good climber and slowing everything else down. Spending time as a brush dragger or line tender doesn't help much when you start to climb.

That's a valid point, he is only getting an hour or two of training a day, the rest of the day he is dragging brush. I still think he should get the same starting pay as everyone else did. Still should have the same firm and clear raises coming when he does things like get a CDL, get certified, becomes a full time climber... There is a pattern here in whats happening in this company and i'm no longer interested in helping it grow at the expense of the people who work there for the gain of the owner. He's a very fast talker, i'm the 3rd experienced climber to leave in the last month, the last one he had on staff. The guy training this new kid is certified and a great salesman, but he isn't what I would call an experienced climber. The general dissent for this company by experienced help is not isolated to me. Aside from his 2 sales guys he has no one who is experienced and seasoned in this industry, and that includes himself.

 

[troythetreeman]

I would still do my time.

We are all free men and this is still America. Ultimately the only thing I truly worry about is me and can I sleep at night. I don't have thoughts like, "can I feed myself?", "can I make my bills?", "is my kid going to have what she needs?" floating around in my head that would compel me to go to work in the morning with a bad taste in my mouth all the while stewing on **** that has my mind off the task at hand. I can't say to myself, "this guy has been good to me, fair and honest and so I shouldn't leave him hanging." No, there is no good reason to stick out two weeks once you've resolved yourself to leave other then some misguided idea that employees somehow owe something to their employer. The company will carry on without me, probably. The only persons life I may have made harder is that of my boss. They still got a couple weeks worth of work with the city boulevard tree contract, that's all bucket truck work anyhow. Everyone is going to be fine, the world is not going to end because I decided the only way I was going to be able to sleep tonight and be happy with myself in hindsight would be to tell this guy to get ******.

 

[jefflovstrom]

He has a trainer and they are starting him low and slow. I don't like that he didn't pay his dues on the ground but that isn't really the issue here. The starting wage is where I drew the line, it's the lowest starting wage in the history of the company. I have been through all this. This kid is being trained to do what I do. There are dozens of small tree companies in Minnesota who will pay a good climber 20%. For me to enable anyone else to pay someone that much less not only hurts that kid, it hurts me and everyone else who does what I do. There is no way I would climb a tree for 13$ an hour. If you can't afford to pay your help you're bidding your jobs wrong.

You do not own the company and you do not set the wage. How much dues did you pay? I was never a groundie, I was picked to climb at 17 years old. I made $50 bucks a day in 1977 and worked 1 or 2 days a week. Not long after that I was making dang good money,,Now I am the op's guy for a great company. Your perception is your reality, but business is business. I ain't complaining at 53 year's old.
I realize that tree wages are basically the same as in the old day's, but I think the key is finding good climber's that want to invest in their future,
BTW, they maybe a Diamond in the rough.
Easy as that.
Jeff

 

[jefflovstrom]

Still on the fence about getting certified tho,

Be a hack then, hack.
Jeff

 

[troythetreeman]

Be a hack then, hack.
Jeff

Heh, why the hell would I want to be certified? I know a lot of people who are certified who know a fraction of what I know and their work isn't half as good. You can not honestly tell me that reading a couple books, the reading and research I have done, not to mention 18 years in a tree, somehow magically transform you into a good arborist. It's money I don't need to spend and bureaucracy I don't need to deal with.

 

[mckeetree]

Although somewhat interesting this is far from the best thread ever started here. F'in entertain me folks.

 

[Pelorus]

I know a lot of people who are certified who know a fraction of what I know and their work isn't half as good.

Maybe. You have a driver's licence? Ever see any lousy drivers on the road? They have the same licence you have.
Getting certified on your own dime, and your own time takes initiative. Quitting a job takes initiative too, of course, but that doesn't go over quite as well in a job interview.

 

[troythetreeman]

You do not own the company and you do not set the wage. How much dues did you pay? I was never a groundie, I was picked to climb at 17 years old. I made $50 bucks a day in 1977 and worked 1 or 2 days a week. Not long after that I was making dang good money,,Now I am the op's guy guy for a great company. Your perception is your reality, but business i s business. I ain't complaining at 53 year;s old.
I realize that tree wages are basically the same as in the old day's, but I think the key is finding good climber's that want's to invest in their future,
BTW, they maybe a Diamond in the roug
Easy as that.
Jeff

You are absolutely right, I do not own the company, I do not set the wages, I am however a free man and can decide if circumstances and conditions are acceptable me. I am also an intelligent man and can look at a big picture and weigh all of its facets. As for how much dues I've paid, I worked for a year on the ground. I wanted to climb so badly I took it. My first day of climbing was doing storm clean up. The climber on the job site didn't want to climb that day, the boss wasn't on the job site so I told him give me the gear, I will climb. By the time the boss returned I was already in the tree. Seeing me climb the salesman said, "he's already better then that other guy." I didn't have anyone in the tree with me showing me what to do, I had spent a year paying very close attention to the way it was done tho. My first wages were a joke. I was promised the world and then dogged. I'm not going to stand by and watch that happen to someone else. If you realize wages haven't really changed since you started what the hell kind of investment is it into any ones future to want to climb? This kid may very well be a diamond in the rough, all the more reason to treat him well. This is dangerous and highly skilled work. Business is business, if you don't want to pay people what the work is worth, find someone else to do it. I own all my own ****, I can work for myself any time I want. The reason I don't is likely much the same as the reason you don't.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Heh, why the hell would I want to be certified? I know a lot of people who are certified who know a fraction of what I know and their work isn't half as good. You can not honestly tell me that reading a couple books, the reading and research I have done, not to mention 18 years in a tree, somehow magically transform you into a good arborist. It's money I don't need to spend and bureaucracy I don't need to deal with.

Like I said,,join the Hack.s..you sound stupid and jealous,,lol,,this whole thread is stupid.
Jeff opcorn: