Moral conundrum.

[Pelorus]

Although somewhat interesting this is far from the best thread ever started here. F'in entertain me folks.

I surely hope the opinions I posted have an hypnotic, laxative effect on you.

 

[mckeetree]

1. I own all my own ****, I can work for myself any time I want. The reason I don't is likely much the same as the reason you don't.

The reason most don't is they would never make it. Of course, they talk plenty of **** about it. Oh, I tried it blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just in the 28 years I have been on my own here in this semi-rural area east of Dallas I must have seen at least 75 give it a try's come and go

 

[troythetreeman]

Maybe. You have a driver's licence? Ever see any lousy drivers on the road? They have the same licence you have.
Getting certified on your own dime, and your own time takes initiative. Quitting a job takes initiative too, of course, but that doesn't go over quite as well in a job interview.

Well, I have a CDL, so my license was a little harder to get then most peoples but you are exactly right.

 

[mckeetree]

I surely hope the opinions I posted have an hypnotic, laxative effect on you.

Mmmmm. Sorta is a laxative effect.

 

[jefflovstrom]

opcorn:

 

[troythetreeman]

The reason most don't is they would never make it. Of course, they talk plenty of **** about it. Oh, I tried it blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just in the 28 years I have been on my own here in this semi-rural area east of Dallas I must have seen at least 75 give it a try's come and go

Right, cause there's a lot more to it then most people realize. Billing yourself out to other people who are willing to do the stuff you don't want to or aren't good at is a lot easier and a lot less risk.

 

[troythetreeman]

Like I said,,join the Hack.s..you sound stupid and jealous,,lol,,this whole thread is stupid.
Jeff opcorn:

Indeed.

 

[mckeetree]

Right, cause there's a lot more to it then most people realize. Billing yourself out to other people who are willing to do the stuff you don't want to or aren't good at is a lot easier and a lot less risk.

Well, to tell the truth most just didn't have the business end of it down well enough to make it. I had what I believe may have been as good a climber as was in the state of Texas working for me from 1992 until 1996 but the guy didn't have enough business sense to run a lemonade stand.

 

[Pelorus]

Well, I have a CDL, so my license was a little harder to get then most peoples but you are exactly right.

Hope you land a job soon.
You get a whole different perspective once you start paying people to work for you instead of vice versa. Even more so when the $$$ for their screw ups comes outta your wallet.

 

[adventurebob]

There is no morality in economics. If the market will support a $12/hr worker, then it is what it is. Saying you have a moral conundrum about the issue is like saying I have a moral conundrum about hot water. The thing you should be concerned about is your value in the market given folks are willing to work for half of what you are.

 

[BC WetCoast]

Heh, why the hell would I want to be certified? I know a lot of people who are certified who know a fraction of what I know and their work isn't half as good. You can not honestly tell me that reading a couple books, the reading and research I have done, not to mention 18 years in a tree, somehow magically transform you into a good arborist. It's money I don't need to spend and bureaucracy I don't need to deal with.

To your market (ie your customers) you don't know **** without the certification. You may have skills and will work cheap and that may be all they are looking for, but without the certificate, you company name may as well be "2 Crackheads and a Pickup Tree Service".

 

[troythetreeman]

There is no morality in economics. If the market will support a $12/hr worker, then it is what it is. Saying you have a moral conundrum about the issue is like saying I have a moral conundrum about hot water. The thing you should be concerned about is your value in the market given folks are willing to work for half of what you are.

The general attitude and theme of the responses here, that working for little money is better then not working, that what other people make isn't any of your concern, is a large part of why so many of you make less then you're worth. I'm sure most of you know what the jobs you do get bid out at. I'm sure most of you can sit and figure out what the over head is. What do you think your cut should be? I'm sure all of you are aware of the risk. If you're happy with that then by all means, stay right where you're at, doing what you do, making what you make. I know what this work is worth to me and when I can't make that I will find something else to do. The bottom line is this, if you let people take advantage of you, they will.

 

[BC WetCoast]

You are absolutely right, I do not own the company, I do not set the wages, I am however a free man and can decide if circumstances and conditions are acceptable me. I am also an intelligent man and can look at a big picture and weigh all of its facets. As for how much dues I've paid, I worked for a year on the ground. I wanted to climb so badly I took it. My first day of climbing was doing storm clean up. The climber on the job site didn't want to climb that day, the boss wasn't on the job site so I told him give me the gear, I will climb. By the time the boss returned I was already in the tree. Seeing me climb the salesman said, "he's already better then that other guy." I didn't have anyone in the tree with me showing me what to do, I had spent a year paying very close attention to the way it was done tho. My first wages were a joke. I was promised the world and then dogged. I'm not going to stand by and watch that happen to someone else. If you realize wages haven't really changed since you started what the hell kind of investment is it into any ones future to want to climb? This kid may very well be a diamond in the rough, all the more reason to treat him well. This is dangerous and highly skilled work. Business is business, if you don't want to pay people what the work is worth, find someone else to do it. I own all my own ****, I can work for myself any time I want. The reason I don't is likely much the same as the reason you don't.

Unless you can control the labour market (major unions, or highly specialized consultants), you pay the wages that the market dictates not what you think it's worth. Yes, this is a dangerous and skilled job, but it's not that dangerous and skilled, unlike say the NFL where only 1500 people (out of a population of 300,000,000) have the skills and ability to play.

It's painful to see those huge charge rates be eaten up with liability insurance, worker's comp, vehicle (ownership/operating) costs, equipment (ownership/operating) costs, gear replacement, marketing, accounting and lawyer fees. Ask all the owners here, if they're rolling in the dough at the end of the day. I would suspect most of them would be happy if they make a reasonable wage and a little company profit.

 

[troythetreeman]

To your market (ie your customers) you don't know **** without the certification. You may have skills and will work cheap and that may be all they are looking for, but without the certificate, you company name may as well be "2 Crackheads and a Pickup Tree Service".

If that certification increased my value I would have it. When it proves to be necessary, I will get it. In the mean time my reputation and abilities speak for themselves. It would only increase my value to a larger company which still values me less then smaller companies so it makes no sense to me what so ever to work for a larger company. I may get it just to get it but every one of you that is certified knows it doesn't really mean jack **** other then you memorized some stuff and took a test most certified arborists couldn't pass again if they were given it tomorrow. Being certified doesn't mean that person is good at what they do or even care about what they do.

 

[Leafin]

I don't mean to stir the waters more, but this thread has opened my eyes at the very least. I've been climbing for about 2 years and in the tree industry for 3. There's still a few climbers on our crews that can tackle the gnarly cottonwoods and really technical trees better than I can, and I'm on the ground running ropes usually as much I'm in the tree, half a week climbing and half on the ground or so. I only make $11.00 an hour, I have my NYS Pesticide technician license, ehap cert, nys logger and first aid cert, and I always thought my pay was a little low but not bad... If theirs clean up guys getting $13h, I'm gladly accepting applications!

 

[futbalfantic]

It is impossible to compare wages from one area to the next. I could make half or twice as much as I am making now going to different areas of the country.

I stand behind the OP. This climber is making less money then a green horn groundie. Does not make since. I think everyone is latching onto him ditching the last two weeks based on that. But don't forget that the company owner lost at least 2 seasoned workers in recent past, which does not bode well for the company.


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[Sagetown]

The inexperienced kid may be a natural in the tree. Your expertise and advice could benefit him in the long run. What's two weeks, it's just a blink, and it's past.
As for the Company, well, those that are in the game for the long haul usually show some sense of responsibility. Others are here today, and gone tomorrow.

 

[sgreanbeans]

The writing is on the wall.

I agree, you should never get Certified and should go drive a truck.

 

[Toddppm]

The general attitude and theme of the responses here, that working for little money is better then not working, that what other people make isn't any of your concern, is a large part of why so many of you make less then you're worth. I'm sure most of you know what the jobs you do get bid out at. I'm sure most of you can sit and figure out what the over head is. What do you think your cut should be? I'm sure all of you are aware of the risk. If you're happy with that then by all means, stay right where you're at, doing what you do, making what you make. I know what this work is worth to me and when I can't make that I will find something else to do. The bottom line is this, if you let people take advantage of you, they will.

Sounds like you pretty much have everything in the tree business figured out. Now it's time to really step up and start your own biz, maybe partner with the other guy? Either that or get out of the biz altogether like you said. Oh, and that doesn't include subbing for somebody else, you want to really feel used?
Wait until you see how hard it really is to line up week after week of profitable work Get back to us in 5 years and let us know how it all worked out.

 

[teamtree]

Well, I gave the notice prior to learning what the kid was being paid. My notice had very little to do with the fact they wanted to train someone so green to climb. I didn't like it, I made that clear, but my reasons were numerous.
Putting someone that green in a tree is negligent.
Only giving him 12$ per hour because he doesn't know any better is immoral.
I have stewed on it close to 24 hours.
I have compromised my ethics in the past and know how it eats at you every time you're reminded of it.
My friend and I helped build this company into angies lists highest rated tree company in Minnesota.
He left a few weeks ago as well because of the direction he saw everything going.
Taking all things into consideration I informed my employer I would not be returning to work.
When I gave my two weeks I just wanted to move on, I had no desire to see the company fail as a whole.
If your business plan is however to hire kids and pay them next to nothing with no interests other then your bottom line... That's when not only would I not care if you fail, I sincerely hope you do.

I would ask what solutions to the problem did you offer? I agree that climbers need to make more. I feel like the industry needs to step up the pricing to support companies paying climbers more money. One of the big gripes in the industry is the underbidding and low balling and guys doing it for fun money on the side. I have hired and trained guys only to see them go down the road or go out on their own. It is a two way street. I think a guy that is willing to climb and can show he is proficient in a reasonable amount of time should make 15 or more and hour. Anyone with a couple years under there belt should make upwards of $20. We need to work together as an industry so we can support paying guys higher wages instead of competing with the low ballers.