That's what I figured. I couldn't think of any good wise guy comments in that direction, so I went with the snoozin moose concept.
my first Fern gully tree take down
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That's what I figured. I couldn't think of any good wise guy comments in that direction, so I went with the snoozin moose concept.
Good question. I think that, depending on the situation, they're both dangerous. Maybe unforgiving would be a better word.
I'm not a technical climber and the only climbing I did was rigging spar trees and lines for pulling trees in the woods. Compared to what the average arborist does every day what I did was kindergarten. My climbing and rigging was simple, theirs can get very complex.
I do know that being a faller is probably not as hard on the body as being a full time climber. You see a lot more old guys still on the saw in the woods than you do old tree climbers.
Or maybe they were just smart enough to get out before they got ancient.
I have an old climber in my neighborhood that is somewhere around 75-76 years. He is quite accomplished, and still does big bad trees.
Unlike many climbers, he is quite the gentleman. I consider him the salt of the earth; one of the finest fellows I have ever met.
Imagineero really summed it up well with respect to the nature of many climbers, but he did not address the why part of the equation. In my opinion, most climbers tend to be risk takers: those individuals that are drawn to excitement and adventure. If a person's very nature cannot accept the terrifying risk associated with swinging from a rope and running a chainsaw, then no amount of money will put them up that tree.
Unfortunately, those folks that happen to be brought up by their parents to follow the rules and to conform to society's rules tend to be involved with high risk jobs that have more respect; things like policemen, firemen, soldiers, steeplejacks, underwater welders, etc. Those high risk seeking individuals that cannot follow the rules have a tendency to start young while taking risks; this translates frequently to getting in trouble with the law, getting involved with drug & alcohol related activities, and generally being a somewhat anti-social person. Cursed with the desire for excitement, driven by a desire for more money, many of those folks end up being tree climbers; often top-notch ones because they see it as an opportunity to make big money without the education they were unwilling to pursue when they were high-risk teenagers.
Some climbers come from tree climbing families; obviously they are not necessarily drawn into the trade for the same reason. I have also noticed quite a few cops, firemen, and ex-soldiers that have branched out. This, of course, is still part of the risk-taking nature that seems to be an essential element to being a climber.
I think the career model that I described above is not a good description in all communities. I am pretty sure that some parts of the world, tree climbers have a great deal of respect, and young men compete for jobs that might lead to that kind of training and opportunity. Sadly, that isn't the way it works in my area. :sad:
Unlike many climbers, he is quite the gentleman. I consider him the salt of the earth; one of the finest fellows I have ever met.
Imagineero really summed it up well with respect to the nature of many climbers, but he did not address the why part of the equation. In my opinion, most climbers tend to be risk takers: those individuals that are drawn to excitement and adventure. If a person's very nature cannot accept the terrifying risk associated with swinging from a rope and running a chainsaw, then no amount of money will put them up that tree.
Unfortunately, those folks that happen to be brought up by their parents to follow the rules and to conform to society's rules tend to be involved with high risk jobs that have more respect; things like policemen, firemen, soldiers, steeplejacks, underwater welders, etc. Those high risk seeking individuals that cannot follow the rules have a tendency to start young while taking risks; this translates frequently to getting in trouble with the law, getting involved with drug & alcohol related activities, and generally being a somewhat anti-social person. Cursed with the desire for excitement, driven by a desire for more money, many of those folks end up being tree climbers; often top-notch ones because they see it as an opportunity to make big money without the education they were unwilling to pursue when they were high-risk teenagers.
Some climbers come from tree climbing families; obviously they are not necessarily drawn into the trade for the same reason. I have also noticed quite a few cops, firemen, and ex-soldiers that have branched out. This, of course, is still part of the risk-taking nature that seems to be an essential element to being a climber.
I think the career model that I described above is not a good description in all communities. I am pretty sure that some parts of the world, tree climbers have a great deal of respect, and young men compete for jobs that might lead to that kind of training and opportunity. Sadly, that isn't the way it works in my area. :sad:
imagineero
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We've got a lot of that sort of climber here too... It's just because there are not so many good climbers around, that if they are any good they can get away with a lot in terms of alcholism, drugs, failure to turn up to work etc. A good climber that can take out big trees is worth a lot to a company, so most are willing to turn their back on quite a bit.
There are different pathways that people get into this industry by. Some start as groundies and work up to it, some start out straight up as climbers. I kind of think that good climbers are born, not made. You pickup knowledge and skills for sure, but no amount of schooling will ever make someone into a climber if it isn't for them. I think there are 4 skills to be a top climber; the climbing, saw handling (cuts, timing, skill), rigging, and strategy. Strategy is kind of subtle, but you need it on big trees. Deciding what techniques to use, the sequence of dismantling, which parts to drop and which to rig, where to set the rigging, and where to set high points etc. Huge, spreading trees really sort the boys from the men. I find most climbers don't have all 4 skills, but having high skills in 2 will let you have less skills in other areas. If you're a great climber and good with a saw you don't need to rig as often. If you're not a great climber but have creative rigging and good strategy you can work the tree that way etc...
I entered this industry from other roped industries. I started rock climbing in my early teens and got right into it. Over the years I'd been in all sorts of jobs but I was always chasing paid work being on a rope. Little part time jobs kept turning up; mountain rescue, climbing guide, industrial access, window cleaning, taking people abseiling, outward bound style corporate team building etc. They paid well but there was never enough work to make a full time go of it so I kept going back to more mainstream work. I did a years forestry work in new zealand, then I was back in australia again and a fellow rock climber was telling me he got some part time work climbing trees and that it paid well. I looked into it, researched, read up, watched videos, bought some gear, practiced, bought more gear. Took down a couple trees for free for friends, and then started doing it on the side for a bit of cash but still working a full time mainstream job. I started with 2 saws, a harness and ropes, throwline, and a box trailer behind my car.
Over time I got better, and started making more money. I kept buying more gear over the first couple years; more saws, rigging, got myself certified and insured. Once i was certified I was able to get contract climbing work with other companies which pays reasonably well. I was charging $40/hour at first, and I was a reasonably good climber by that point. Getting those contacts was a big help, some of them were willing to chip for me on my jobs in return for my climbing. contract climbing was hard work though, you know they're only going to call you for the most dangerous biggest hardest most complex trees - otherwise they'd climb it themselves. It's a good way to make money though when you don't really have any big equipment. I was making $50/hour later, then $65. I had a lot of gear by that time though; 6 or 7 saws, friction drum, lots of heavy rigging, heaps of climbing gear, ropes, big shots, etc etc... and I was doing the big trees. If you're discplined about saving money it's a good way to get your own business started.
I got my first ratty old dump, and did palm jobs with it, or slashed smaller trees into it. That thing sucked ass big time. I think I spent more time fixing it than doing trees! I was out there spannering on that thing till 1am or 2am some days. Kept doing my own jobs whenever I could, getting other guys to chip for me and still doing a bit of contract climbing work. Bought my first decent modern dump couple years back and started to scale back the contract climbing work. Finally bought my first chipper last year, and that was a big step forward for me. It can be a hard slog to save up the money to buy things if you can't or don't want to buy on credit.
Shaun
There are different pathways that people get into this industry by. Some start as groundies and work up to it, some start out straight up as climbers. I kind of think that good climbers are born, not made. You pickup knowledge and skills for sure, but no amount of schooling will ever make someone into a climber if it isn't for them. I think there are 4 skills to be a top climber; the climbing, saw handling (cuts, timing, skill), rigging, and strategy. Strategy is kind of subtle, but you need it on big trees. Deciding what techniques to use, the sequence of dismantling, which parts to drop and which to rig, where to set the rigging, and where to set high points etc. Huge, spreading trees really sort the boys from the men. I find most climbers don't have all 4 skills, but having high skills in 2 will let you have less skills in other areas. If you're a great climber and good with a saw you don't need to rig as often. If you're not a great climber but have creative rigging and good strategy you can work the tree that way etc...
I entered this industry from other roped industries. I started rock climbing in my early teens and got right into it. Over the years I'd been in all sorts of jobs but I was always chasing paid work being on a rope. Little part time jobs kept turning up; mountain rescue, climbing guide, industrial access, window cleaning, taking people abseiling, outward bound style corporate team building etc. They paid well but there was never enough work to make a full time go of it so I kept going back to more mainstream work. I did a years forestry work in new zealand, then I was back in australia again and a fellow rock climber was telling me he got some part time work climbing trees and that it paid well. I looked into it, researched, read up, watched videos, bought some gear, practiced, bought more gear. Took down a couple trees for free for friends, and then started doing it on the side for a bit of cash but still working a full time mainstream job. I started with 2 saws, a harness and ropes, throwline, and a box trailer behind my car.
Over time I got better, and started making more money. I kept buying more gear over the first couple years; more saws, rigging, got myself certified and insured. Once i was certified I was able to get contract climbing work with other companies which pays reasonably well. I was charging $40/hour at first, and I was a reasonably good climber by that point. Getting those contacts was a big help, some of them were willing to chip for me on my jobs in return for my climbing. contract climbing was hard work though, you know they're only going to call you for the most dangerous biggest hardest most complex trees - otherwise they'd climb it themselves. It's a good way to make money though when you don't really have any big equipment. I was making $50/hour later, then $65. I had a lot of gear by that time though; 6 or 7 saws, friction drum, lots of heavy rigging, heaps of climbing gear, ropes, big shots, etc etc... and I was doing the big trees. If you're discplined about saving money it's a good way to get your own business started.
I got my first ratty old dump, and did palm jobs with it, or slashed smaller trees into it. That thing sucked ass big time. I think I spent more time fixing it than doing trees! I was out there spannering on that thing till 1am or 2am some days. Kept doing my own jobs whenever I could, getting other guys to chip for me and still doing a bit of contract climbing work. Bought my first decent modern dump couple years back and started to scale back the contract climbing work. Finally bought my first chipper last year, and that was a big step forward for me. It can be a hard slog to save up the money to buy things if you can't or don't want to buy on credit.
Shaun
I see that things are not that much different on your side of the planet. It sounds like you were an adrenaline junkie too, except that you started out as one of the guys that could follow the rules.
I seem to run into the rule-breaker variety the most.
I seem to run into the rule-breaker variety the most.
imagineero
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There's definitely a perception that rock climbing is an adrenalin sport, but I think that perception is mostly held by those who've never climbed or have just climbed a few times. The rush quickly wears off, and if that was what you were in it for then you're left having to push the limits further and further to keep getting that thrill. People who do it for those reasons don't last long. They end up dead pretty quick, or they are chasing the next rush somewhere else.
I think for most rock climbers there's something more to it. It's like people who surf for a long time, or sail for a long time. There's no bragging rights to it, and nobody is ever going to see that moment. You do it for the beauty of it. For me, it brings an exquisite focus to being, and a pleasant momentum to consciousness. It's a personal and spontaneous form of creation, which can't be held or captured and each instant is lost as soon as it's experienced, never to be had again. Tree work is a little like that too for me. I think all tree climbers have experienced that kind of sensation, where everything else disappears. Some guys call it 'tree time'. Sure is nice to get paid for it too
Shaun
I think for most rock climbers there's something more to it. It's like people who surf for a long time, or sail for a long time. There's no bragging rights to it, and nobody is ever going to see that moment. You do it for the beauty of it. For me, it brings an exquisite focus to being, and a pleasant momentum to consciousness. It's a personal and spontaneous form of creation, which can't be held or captured and each instant is lost as soon as it's experienced, never to be had again. Tree work is a little like that too for me. I think all tree climbers have experienced that kind of sensation, where everything else disappears. Some guys call it 'tree time'. Sure is nice to get paid for it too
Shaun
That euphoria you are feeling is adrenalin induced. You don't have to be scared to experience it; your body and your subconscious mind knows when you are hanging on a thread.
I used to get the same sort of experience from high speed on a motorcycle. I wasn't scared, I didn't even get nervous. Nonetheless, it was dangerous, and I was burning the adrenalin candle.
I have never climbed rocks, but I know what climbing for many is all about. Strangely, I really didn't get into tree work because I liked to climb. My customers needed work done, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to make some bucks. It grew from there.
I used to get the same sort of experience from high speed on a motorcycle. I wasn't scared, I didn't even get nervous. Nonetheless, it was dangerous, and I was burning the adrenalin candle.
I have never climbed rocks, but I know what climbing for many is all about. Strangely, I really didn't get into tree work because I liked to climb. My customers needed work done, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to make some bucks. It grew from there.
tramp bushler
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I got into climbing and topping because that was part of tower loggin. But, I started climbing a year before I started setting chockers. At first I was terrified but after a while I stopped being so scared. The first tree Itopped was at somewhere around 65' and it was about 12" diameter there. It was a practice tree for speed climbing. I used a 114 Sacks Dolmar with a 20" bar. I was precommercial tree thinning at the time at Francis Cove. Revillagigado Is. ( that's the island Ketchikan is on.)
The 2 nd tree I topped I used a double bit ax and a 4' single man misery whip. . I think it was a Diston..
Some may mock this. But it took 3 of us for me to learn how to work in and top timber. All Mighty God, me, and Finley Hays.
I got a copy of Lies, Logs, and Loggers. From Bailey's .
All the loggers I knew were to great in their own eyes or too old and busy to help out a young kid from Maine that had just got out of the Coast Guard. And was in the 2 nd lowest rung of workin in the brush. A tree thinner.
But 1 year later I beat about 10 climbers ringing the bell at 80' at the Ketchikan Timber Show.
The 2 nd tree I topped I used a double bit ax and a 4' single man misery whip. . I think it was a Diston..
Some may mock this. But it took 3 of us for me to learn how to work in and top timber. All Mighty God, me, and Finley Hays.
I got a copy of Lies, Logs, and Loggers. From Bailey's .
All the loggers I knew were to great in their own eyes or too old and busy to help out a young kid from Maine that had just got out of the Coast Guard. And was in the 2 nd lowest rung of workin in the brush. A tree thinner.
But 1 year later I beat about 10 climbers ringing the bell at 80' at the Ketchikan Timber Show.
Starting at 65' is a pretty rough way to get in the biz. I presume you were stripping the tree as you went up?
That makes for a pretty shaky spar to be riding for the first time. You must have a whole lot of heart to jump in that way.
That makes for a pretty shaky spar to be riding for the first time. You must have a whole lot of heart to jump in that way.
tramp bushler
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Actually it was pretty mild. Lots of guys got their start topping spar trees at a hundred to 250' . I think the average in Southeast was around 140 and still 24" diameter or more
The man that broke me in falling timber. Topped his first tree at 17 years old. A Doug fir in the Darrington Washington area. 42" top diameter. Topped at 240 feet up.
The man that broke me in falling timber. Topped his first tree at 17 years old. A Doug fir in the Darrington Washington area. 42" top diameter. Topped at 240 feet up.
tramp bushler
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And yes, I have stood up on top of a spar tree. . But only one.
I think I have a poor understanding of how you guys get started.
It would be essential to have quite a few skills in place before anybody could expect to climb that high and not end up dead.
It would be essential to have quite a few skills in place before anybody could expect to climb that high and not end up dead.
tramp bushler
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It's hard to explain it.
The world was a different place back then. This was back when everything in the brush was highball. You ran ( not walked) in for your job and out for your life. . Literally. .
The more dangerous jobs paid more. And we. Lived in a culture of a man WORKED himself to death. That was life.
Lots of those guys didn't even wear hard hats. By the time my partner started in the brush they had wire core ( fliplines) but not long before that. It was just a length of 4 strand manilla. . When I started climbing I couldn't afford a wirecore climbing rope. ( flipline) . So I used hard lay nylon crab pot line. Watch some of the you tube vids of old time west coast loggin.
The world was a different place back then. This was back when everything in the brush was highball. You ran ( not walked) in for your job and out for your life. . Literally. .
The more dangerous jobs paid more. And we. Lived in a culture of a man WORKED himself to death. That was life.
Lots of those guys didn't even wear hard hats. By the time my partner started in the brush they had wire core ( fliplines) but not long before that. It was just a length of 4 strand manilla. . When I started climbing I couldn't afford a wirecore climbing rope. ( flipline) . So I used hard lay nylon crab pot line. Watch some of the you tube vids of old time west coast loggin.
tramp bushler
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Well, the Fern Gully tree is now the stump flat stump. :big_smile:
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tramp bushler
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Wrong pic in that one. Try this.
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That's better. Am I ever glad I didn't keep going up it when I was climbing it. I cut thru a wasps nest when I nipped the top out. And even the good wood was rotten
tramp bushler
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My fon is acting up today. Oh well .
2treeornot2tree
Dont cry, just do it
glad you got that little feller down. Is that a picture of you standing next to the pile of wood?
Off subject, hope you dont mind. Been thinking about moving out west or to alaska. Someone was telling me the mosquitos are horrible up there in alaska. Is that true?
Off subject, hope you dont mind. Been thinking about moving out west or to alaska. Someone was telling me the mosquitos are horrible up there in alaska. Is that true?
tramp bushler
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In some places they can get bad for a short period of time. . But that's just part of summer. Here in Glennallen this year they have been pretty bad but last year not really bad at all. We use bug dope in the summer when working. Butit not like we constantly need it. The Mosquito Magnet is a big seller up here. But I've never owned one. We have 30-40 degree temp swings in the summer from over night low to daytime high. And most bugs and temp dependant. .
IMO. not that big a deal. Glennallen tends to be known for mosquito s. And Cold winters
tramp bushler
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32" bar on the 064 . That's the 2 nd block off the top.
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