Natural crotches v.s. Pulleys

[Tom Dunlap]

Its not about gear, I'm not making my point clear. Its about moving forward and being open to change.

If traditional methods work, which they do, fine. But be open to considering moving ahead. Getting the attitude that trad works so prog is a waste is Luddite thinking.

Over the years I've seen many more trad climbers become better climbers by making the simple change from the TL to the Blake's. This change opens them to a whole different mindset. In short order they're using many other tools and techniques that make tree work much more fun. Oh, and easier too.

On the other hand most of the climbers who have stayed with trad systems don't progress. The move ahead is more about mental attitude than gear. Of course, there are some trad climbers who are gifted enough to climb well. Using modern systems allows people to progress faster. At the same time, trad climbers will hold onto their systems with a tenacity that seems like they're defending some sort of honor.

Trad systems to work but there is only a tiny percentage of climbers who will go back to a trad system when they start on the move forward. Heck, everyone has accepted some modern parts already. When was the last anyone climbed on a three loop bowline saddle? Manila rope? Oooo, I hope not. Manila was fine for Captain Jack Aubrey but not us.

Guy,

The training and assessment system in the UK is really good. The enforcement system is what doesn't work. During T&A, no, not that T&A...the climber learns proper techniques. The system is an attempt to have a standardized the training of climbers. There isn't a forced use of FCs or DEDA lanyards or anything like that. Heck, they even train the climbers how to cut one handed. Along the way though, they train the climbers who to position themselves to make cuts in a safe stance.

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I've spent time studying the HSE system and it is sound. Like I said, the enforcement or leveling of the playing field is lacking.

Tom

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
The move ahead is more about mental attitude than gear. , trad climbers will hold onto their systems with a tenacity that seems like they're defending some sort of honor.

OK OK, you're right about mental attitude being an impediment. I jsut don't want to pull my focus away from the tree. There is no honor in clinging to trad, nor is there any in adding needless complications that divert attention from arboriculture.
I think it's more important to be open to nontraditional tree care strategies like heading cuts as it is to be open to new gear and knots. But I will be trying some new knots while I climb live oaks in fla this week--and get off the computer for a while!

 

[treehugger01]

Live oaks? Sweet.
That most awsome tree I think God has ever made indeed!
i just came off the coast of Georgia Climbing them. I think these monsters are the most difficult to climb of all trees. Like the great Angle oak on the Coast of South Carolina. There is no central tie in point. You have to squirrle it all. Hunchin them bugger is painful escecially with no spike I think deep in my heart the trees thank me for it. They thank generations to come for my efforts within its branches with their beauty and awe inspiring astetics.
Awsome my favorite trees to climb simply because what I leave behind!

 

[NickfromWI]

Originally posted by treehugger01
...Mexicans on the ground no habla "wrap".

Tell them (and this is scaled down)...

!Tomar otra vuelta!

If you want them to keep going, just say "Mas" as in "Mike Maas" or almost Randy Moss. Mas means more. If they go too far, say "menos" (pronounced "may-noce." the "s" is not pronounced like a "z" it's more like a "c")

And use a hand signal while you're doing it...hand signals can be universal. I want to create a standard and write a book for hand signals for tree work.

So you're up in a tree, ready to rope down a large piece. While point your finger down and spiraling it around, you yell..

"Tomar oatra vuelta! Mas, Moss, Maas.....no! Menos! Ok!" Hold your hand up as if saying "Halt!"



love
nick

ps- when you pronounce "otra" you'll be much better off if you pronounce it like it sounds in spanish. An english speaker might be tempted to pronounce that "t" with a "ch" sound ie- oachra (that's what we often do when an "r" follows a "t," like in ventriliquist) pronounce it like oat-ra (as in oatmeal).

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by treehugger01
Live oaks? Sweet.
There is no central tie in point. You have to squirrle it all. Hunchin them bugger is painful escecially with no spike...

Big oaks are difficult to climb only if you let them. No central lead to tie in? I always see a central lead up there somewhere, ya just gotta look for it. A lotta times each lead will have a nice tie-in spot. Heres another situation where a pulley(or SRT) would be useless, cause I might change my tie-in point a half dozen times working in one of these bad boys.

Moving efficiently in these giants requires a good plan, and a lot of experience don't hurt either. Personally, I prefer the giants. I think they are easier than the smaller ones.

 

[NeTree]

Why not just hire someone who speaks English?

 

[NickfromWI]

Don't get me started


Why don't you just hire someone that already knows what you want done before you even know? While you're at it, why don't you hire someone that does his work quickly, and also does your work, and also works for free?

Sometimes you can't get what you want. And sometimes one undesirable trait in a person can be outweighed by their strong-points.

Back to the topic at hand. I like climbing with a friction saver. The ring and ring is okay, switch the little ring with a pulley and it's even better. I'm a few months into using my homemade version of the rope-guide. Much like the prusiked version that sherrill sells. I like that.

love
nick

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Butch, Butch, Butch...there you go again, condemning something that you haven't used enough to completely understand-
"Heres another situation where a pulley(or SRT) would be useless,"

If you're changing DdRT TIPs I can do the same with either DdRT or SRT. In fact, changing TIPs with SRT is even easier than with DdRT. I think that I read that you have a first edition of the Companion. Look on page 19 and see Natural Redi's. Page 60 in secnod edition. [If you have #2, go to p.65 to see how I use a Stop]

We don't grow live oaks in MN but I've climbed them as well as other spreading crowns with crappy TIPs. I'll move my TIP as I work quadrants of set several lines from the ground and transfer from one to the other as I move around.

Open up to alternatives.

Tom

 

[MasterBlaster]

Your right, Tom. I don't understand SRT as well as you.

So when you change your tie-in 5 times, you pass the rope down to the ground and have the groundhands secure it for you 5 times?

 

[Lumberjack]

Not normally. You don't have to tie it off at the ground. You can run a biner or bowline to the TIP or tie it off in the next section you are gonna work in. To me it is easier to tie it off on the ground for the first section, and then after I get done there and need to change TIP I tie it off in the tree.


Carl

 

[NickfromWI]

Butch, it's much easier than that. The one end that's tied at the base of the tree, leave it there. Climb to your new tie in point, take the free/hanging end of the line and drop it into that crotch. You can leave it in the original TIP if you want. You can have the line zig-zagging all throughout the tree and it won't matter because the rope is static. You won't really be fighting friction as you would if you were climbing Ddrt.

Does that make sense? I can draw a pic in Paint if you need me to!

love
nick

 

[Stumper]

FYI Nick, The proper pronunciation of otra is closer to "oat..thra".

 

[NickfromWI]

Stumper, you're right! Wow, I couldn't think of a way to get an english speaker to roll their "r." But buy pretending there is a "th" in there, it sorta gives the affect of a properly rolled "R"!!!!

I'll have to remember that one. Que simpaticos son los arboroleros aqui! Menos ellos que todavia usan el tautline!



love
nick

 

[Joe]

Tom: you are the on-line srt authority. I'll extend that compliment to the entire industry if I can figure out an easy way to prove it.

Joe

 

[NickfromWI]

Okay, MB, since you asked nicely, here it is.

 

[Lumberjack]

Purty picture Nick. I do either that, or a slinged redirect. Normally I can just reset the rope, but I like redirecting on trees that allow it, as it is faster that resetting.

Carl

 

[NickfromWI]

The slings are faster to install because you don't have to pull the rope up and over, but you have to return to that TIP later to remove the sling. With the natural redirect, you can descend and remove the rope. It's a trade off.

love
nick

 

[kurtztree]

If you use to many natural crotches isn't the rope hard to get out then? For the SRT do you use something like a split tail end to tie onto the rope?

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by kurtztree
If you use to many natural crotches isn't the rope hard to get out then?

Nope. Stay away from V-crotches, or sapped crotches, and she slides out just fine!

 

[Tree Machine]

Glad to know a number of us are speaking Espanol, and teaching the rest.

Otra (another) I have to plug in here, is pronounced more like 'o-tda'. The 'r' when it's inside a word is pronounced like a light 'd', where the tip of your tongue taps the roof of your mouth right behind your front teeth. PS Nick, you dont' roll an 'r' when it's within a word. You roll a double-r, 'rr'. Or you roll a single 'r' that's at the beginning of a word.

Tomar otra vuelta (to take another round) should be conjugated, 'Tome otra vuelta' (you take another round) 'tome' being prononced toe-may.

Ummm, back to the subject, natural crotches vs pulleys, once I went to spliced eyes on both ends of all ropes, I found the friction saver less effective. I tried other uses for it, like, a FC for lowering, but once you clip a caribiner onto the rings, the rings become non-essential luggage. Much preferable to biner through a sewn eye. I cut out the small ring, so a biner could be installed and removed in it's place, allowing the ringless eye to thread easily through the big ring, then slip a locking biner through that eye and the friction saver becomes a pretty hefty-duty choker sling (expensive, might I add).

I always prefer a natural crotch for lowering limbs, having worked both ways. I depend on the friction from the tree, as I do 100% of the lowering of all parts from up in the tree. Sometimes I apologise to the tree for wearing a rope streak on the topside of the crotch, though this happens pretty infrequently as I don't often lower really heavy stuff (heavy to me being 4-5X my weight).

I have a half-dozen pulleys of different sizes, and rarely use them up in the tree, but use them pretty often in ground-based rigging.

Below a pic of the last time I used that friction saver-turned-choker sling before I left it somewhere, never to be seen again. -TM-