Engineeringnerd
ArboristSite Operative
I'm assuming the 48" x 48" is W x L, not depth. Water jets are probably good for 6 - 8" on something like this (only a guess).
Need Ideas on cutting wood
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sawinredneck
Addicted to ArboristSite
Last I had heard, a water jet was good for 20" of steel or alum. with a .030" deflection. It might be better now.
Engineeringnerd
ArboristSite Operative
Haven't seen one like that Red. The one I've seen can cut up to about 1/2" steel plate or 8" of wood, but there are many variables. Here are a links to check further for those who want to know (there are hundreds):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_jet_cutter
http://kmtwaterjet.com/metal-cutting.aspx
http://www.jbtfoodtech.com/Solutions/Equipment/DSI-Waterjet-Portioning-Systems.aspx
http://www.woodlandmanufacturing.com/water-jet-cutting.html
You can also load the water with abrasive materials for cutting tougher subjects, but you can use straight water form thin or soft objects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_jet_cutter
http://kmtwaterjet.com/metal-cutting.aspx
http://www.jbtfoodtech.com/Solutions/Equipment/DSI-Waterjet-Portioning-Systems.aspx
http://www.woodlandmanufacturing.com/water-jet-cutting.html
You can also load the water with abrasive materials for cutting tougher subjects, but you can use straight water form thin or soft objects.
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sawinredneck
Addicted to ArboristSite
Everything I dealt with, in a machine shop envirornment, used abraisives. 3" titanium, 2" steel was no problem. Did a lot of sheet work with them, it was faster than using a punch and the detail was much better.
Played with EDM's as well, mostly sink die, but a few wire types.
I wonder if a "hot wire" would work for this aplication? A thin wire with voltage glowing red just burn right through it?
Engineeringnerd
ArboristSite Operative
Redneck,
I don't know about a hot wire on this. Seems it would in fact "burn" right through it!
The water cutters I see are used for sheet metal (equipment manufacturing) and for cutting meat (food processing). I don't know what the upper capability is for the technology.
I don't know about a hot wire on this. Seems it would in fact "burn" right through it!
The water cutters I see are used for sheet metal (equipment manufacturing) and for cutting meat (food processing). I don't know what the upper capability is for the technology.
sounds as laser
Just adding a thought
we are using a lot of die cutting forms in our production which are made out of 20mm plywood where the knive layout is cut out by laser and then the knives are pressed into the cutting lines.
I am quite certain that a laser can be used for your application. I had 40mm plywood cut by laser with minimal damage and distortion . It also gives a good edge finish to fibrous materials.
A simple laserhead mounted on a single axle belt driven by asynchron engine would be my setup to give it a try.
We do have cutting plotter in the company which can be equiped with a laserhead and i do remember them talking about 80mm wood when we purchased the device.
The benefit with laser is also that you dont have to care about the underlayer. The wavelenght will be tuned to only cut the wood and not the supporting table, belt,...
(you can eg cut a 100micron laminated foil of x micron PP and y micron PE whereby only the PP or PE (depending on wavelenght setting) is actually cut)
Just adding a thought
we are using a lot of die cutting forms in our production which are made out of 20mm plywood where the knive layout is cut out by laser and then the knives are pressed into the cutting lines.
I am quite certain that a laser can be used for your application. I had 40mm plywood cut by laser with minimal damage and distortion . It also gives a good edge finish to fibrous materials.
A simple laserhead mounted on a single axle belt driven by asynchron engine would be my setup to give it a try.
We do have cutting plotter in the company which can be equiped with a laserhead and i do remember them talking about 80mm wood when we purchased the device.
The benefit with laser is also that you dont have to care about the underlayer. The wavelenght will be tuned to only cut the wood and not the supporting table, belt,...
(you can eg cut a 100micron laminated foil of x micron PP and y micron PE whereby only the PP or PE (depending on wavelenght setting) is actually cut)
brisawyer
ArboristSite Operative
Maybey something along the lines of the old scratcher type chain. Scorers on the left and right with a negative rake or hook so it slices and dosent grab the fibers and a raker to clear the chips.
KsWoodsMan
Addicted to ArboristSite
:agree2: Thats not a bad idea , to have all the 'slicers' or knives in the center of the kerf. It would cut through the netting. It would also split all the fibers endways and shod draw out very little material onto the production floor.
I dont know about the fire hazzard from the laser with dried scrim, which amounts to kindling, but it would be a clean cut with no material drug out on the floor.
I dont know about the fire hazzard from the laser with dried scrim, which amounts to kindling, but it would be a clean cut with no material drug out on the floor.
clawmute
ArboristSite Operative
Thanks for all of your input guys, you've all give me a lot of different things to consider. Looks like I'm going to be able to cut stationary and not have the whole assembly tracking the conveyor speed.
The fastest speed I've seen for a chain saw is 6500fpm for a hydraulically powered unit. I am going to have to do some testing with an actual bundle of the material wrapped with the 1" square mesh "bird netting".
What is the fastest practical speed at which a chain saw type chain can safely/realistically be used at on a day in, day out basis? 6500fpm is the fastest one I've seen advertised. 5000fpm, or about 60mph, I've seen advertised for Stihl and some others.
Is chain speed limited by the rpm of 2 cycle engines? I'm sure the chain itself has some practical speed barrier.
1. There will be hold downs either side of the cut as an attempt to compress the material to some degree and firm it up a little during the cut.
2. Conveyor side wall opening for the cutter to pass will be minimum to cut down on "pull through"
3. The drive will be reversible to help clear out splinters and/or mest material that trys to pull into the drive sprocket.
4. A separate lubricant reservoir with pump will be required.
5. When a cut is made from top to bottom the cutter bar will remain there until the next cut is required, and that cut will be from bottom to top. THis way the chain/bar does not have to pass back through the cut just made.
6. An automatic pneumatic tensioning device will keep constant chain tension so that no slack develops to cause a problem.
7. After the cut is made the leading section is pulled away to develop a space.
8. We will try several different tooth profiles to determine the best for this "weird" application (thats all I've ever worked on is the weird stuff)
9. Chain will probably have carbide teeth to extend times between changes.
10. A housing will surround the whole assembly, and waste/sawed material fragments/dust/splinters will have to be moved to the waste system.
The high pressure water is good for some things and at one company I worked for we had a lot of special parts cut with a high pressure water jet. The water, like other cutting systems, does not have the oompth to cut through that much material. As a side note both water and plasma type cutters have a cone shaped cutting action, and there is always a draft or taper to the cut since the cut gets wider at the bottom of the material.
This is a really good photo of what must be cut (less the netting) cross section is about 48" square.
The fastest speed I've seen for a chain saw is 6500fpm for a hydraulically powered unit. I am going to have to do some testing with an actual bundle of the material wrapped with the 1" square mesh "bird netting".
What is the fastest practical speed at which a chain saw type chain can safely/realistically be used at on a day in, day out basis? 6500fpm is the fastest one I've seen advertised. 5000fpm, or about 60mph, I've seen advertised for Stihl and some others.
Is chain speed limited by the rpm of 2 cycle engines? I'm sure the chain itself has some practical speed barrier.
1. There will be hold downs either side of the cut as an attempt to compress the material to some degree and firm it up a little during the cut.
2. Conveyor side wall opening for the cutter to pass will be minimum to cut down on "pull through"
3. The drive will be reversible to help clear out splinters and/or mest material that trys to pull into the drive sprocket.
4. A separate lubricant reservoir with pump will be required.
5. When a cut is made from top to bottom the cutter bar will remain there until the next cut is required, and that cut will be from bottom to top. THis way the chain/bar does not have to pass back through the cut just made.
6. An automatic pneumatic tensioning device will keep constant chain tension so that no slack develops to cause a problem.
7. After the cut is made the leading section is pulled away to develop a space.
8. We will try several different tooth profiles to determine the best for this "weird" application (thats all I've ever worked on is the weird stuff)
9. Chain will probably have carbide teeth to extend times between changes.
10. A housing will surround the whole assembly, and waste/sawed material fragments/dust/splinters will have to be moved to the waste system.
The high pressure water is good for some things and at one company I worked for we had a lot of special parts cut with a high pressure water jet. The water, like other cutting systems, does not have the oompth to cut through that much material. As a side note both water and plasma type cutters have a cone shaped cutting action, and there is always a draft or taper to the cut since the cut gets wider at the bottom of the material.
This is a really good photo of what must be cut (less the netting) cross section is about 48" square.
KsWoodsMan
Addicted to ArboristSite
In picture #2 of your original post, the scrim appeared to be moving left to right ( or right to left). I was thinking you were going to be ripping (slicing) the fibers from end to end. I was thinking of a much more robust hedge trimmer arm than a weedeater or Ryobi. More along the lines of the cutters on the head of a swather or combine.
For cross cutting and dealing with the birdnetting what about 2 bars with 2 counter rotating chains. That should cut the netting, since the cutters are pulling in oposite directions. There will be some waste sacrificed between the bars that didn't get cleared in the kerf.
Instead of cutiing from top/bottom/top would it work any better with a single chain cutting from side to side, vertically ? or 15° off verticle so the cutters catch a corner of the netting first instead of the entire face ?
The chain would need need some type of auto tightening system. So as it wears and stretches, it doesnt end up coming off the track in the middle of a cut or as it comes out of the cut. A small hydraulic cylinder with constant (low) pressure and a check-valve to keep it from backing off in the cut might suffice. The cylinder would work like an infinitely adjustable ratchet, applying force to the bar while at rest then holding its position against the check-valve during the cut.
5 seconds to get through the cut is going to put a lot of force through the chain. Harvester chain would be the best bet for high production use. They also make larger sprockets for harvesters with hyd. motors, to raise the FPM above what a typical chainsaw would give.
For cross cutting and dealing with the birdnetting what about 2 bars with 2 counter rotating chains. That should cut the netting, since the cutters are pulling in oposite directions. There will be some waste sacrificed between the bars that didn't get cleared in the kerf.
Instead of cutiing from top/bottom/top would it work any better with a single chain cutting from side to side, vertically ? or 15° off verticle so the cutters catch a corner of the netting first instead of the entire face ?
The chain would need need some type of auto tightening system. So as it wears and stretches, it doesnt end up coming off the track in the middle of a cut or as it comes out of the cut. A small hydraulic cylinder with constant (low) pressure and a check-valve to keep it from backing off in the cut might suffice. The cylinder would work like an infinitely adjustable ratchet, applying force to the bar while at rest then holding its position against the check-valve during the cut.
5 seconds to get through the cut is going to put a lot of force through the chain. Harvester chain would be the best bet for high production use. They also make larger sprockets for harvesters with hyd. motors, to raise the FPM above what a typical chainsaw would give.
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Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
After seeing your last picture... I envisioned a shear/press setup.
As the press moved down onto the material, and compressed it to the desired psi... The shear would engage, and sever the material. I didn't take the time to get real detailed in the drawing, but I think it gets the idea across.
Think of it like cutting an insulation batten... Don't compress the fibers and try to cut it with a utility knife... Then compress the material, and cut it.
As the press moved down onto the material, and compressed it to the desired psi... The shear would engage, and sever the material. I didn't take the time to get real detailed in the drawing, but I think it gets the idea across.
Think of it like cutting an insulation batten... Don't compress the fibers and try to cut it with a utility knife... Then compress the material, and cut it.
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