Need schooled in the right way to drop trees for logs

[Rio_Grande]

I was given all the poplar logs I could cut and a few red oaks. We decided to cut whatever is sellable into logs for that purpose, the rest into fire wood. The poplar isint worth much for logs or fire wood, but we aren't working at the moment and can use whatever we can get. The oaks will be nice money wise and again we can use that. I talked to a timber buyer recently and he is interested in all of the straight stuff down to 12 inch. What I need to learn is how to drop them RIGHT I have dropped and cut fire wood for years with few issues but on occasion I split one, or put it where I didn't want it.

I don't know what it is called but I have always notched coming up and then strait leaving a wedge. Then make the back cut at the same height as the top of the notch. Using wedges as necessary to make it go reasonably where I want it. Is this the right way? I know certain trees require certain methods but that is the one I know.

I have the skidding equipment for the size trees I am messing with, trailers to move up to 24 foot logs. Just need to learn a bit more so I don't tear up the groceries.

 

[northmanlogging]

D. Douglas Dent, Professional timber falling or spend a few weeks on the falling pics thread, otherwise find someone to show you in person up close, lots of ways to dump a tree some good lots of bad ones. Learn the humboldt cut its faster and a little safer plus it puts wood on the ground quick, as far as breaking logs on the way down try to miss stumps boulders yer truck, the trick is too put them on the ground as gently as possible while missing all the obstacles... learn the lengths the mill WANTS not what is easy to cut and yard, and buy a log tape, nothing like the new guy that walks off what he thinks is a 32' log with 1' of snipe only to find out its really a 28' with 3" of snipe and the mill won't take anything under 30'

 

[Rio_Grande]

I agree, he told me I could cut them 8,10,12 and leave 5 inches for trimming. Real nice guy. .25 to.42 a board foot depending on quality. That sounds great with little to no income at the moment. How do they figure the board foot of a log? I know they measure the smaller end and use a taper value. Beyond that I am clueless.

 

[northmanlogging]

Taper value? The mills round here measure a square section down the middle, taper is how they make money, by cutting that taper into extra boards they don't pay us for. There is some difference between coasts as to scaling logs, some use the doyle scale some use scribner, some use "international" the differences are subtle (and I don't understand them). Your best bet is to find out what scale the mills near you use and get yourself a scale book. Or you could do the math on every log... give me a minute and I'll try to remember it...

 

[northmanlogging]

first Measure the diameter of the small side of a log, lets say its 12"
Then measure the length minus snipe or waste (extra that the mill uses to cut out defects) in inches so lets go with a 10 footer at 120 inches

Now take the Radius devide by 2 (equals 6")
Square that 6x6=36 reapeat 6x6=36 ad the two together 36+36=72
a squared + b squared = c squared (remember trigonometry...thought you'd never need it huh)
find the square root for our purpose its 8.485" This is the length of one side of a square chunk down the middle or your log
multiply the length of the log in inches by the length of one side and again by the length of one side (120x8.485x8.485=8639.427 now devide that by 144, (8639.427/144=59.99)
the 144 is how you find your board feet one board foot is a 1'x1'x1" plank(1 foot x 1 foot x 1 inch)
All told at the end of the day your 10 footer is a measly 60 mbf log and yer going to need about 17 of em to make a 1000' bf and if the mill is paying say $300 per 1000 bf that log is worth...$18.00 ain't logging grand...:msp_biggrin:

Disclaimer: this math was self taught so if'n I'm wrong... well oops... so far I haven't been two far off at the mill, the Scalers have crooked tape measures anyway so every log looks like its 1" smaller to them... and full of rot and knots so I never get paid what I should (but thats logging)

 

[madhatte]

Way I always figure the volumes on small trees is like so. Since the area of a circle is pi*r^2, and a board-foot is 12"*12" = 144in^2

Divide 144"^2/pi to get r^2, then find the square root of that. It'll be about 13.6" per board-foot. Mental math then tells me that every inch in length at 14" diameter is about a board-foot. Remember that square, though. Volume increases non-linearly with the square of the radius. Don't forget to account for that.

Anyway, this is the way I quickly estimate volumes on trees up to about 20" diameter and down to about 6" in diameter. Scribner/Doyle/International are for scalers. I'm mostly concerned with an eyeball estimate of the real cylinder, not the usable one.

 

[DavdH]

The rules scaling can change at any particular location, the rules are laid out in the contract. 16" diameter log is 10bf per lineal ft in Scribner decimal C. Of course on the left coast here we have east side and west side depending on which side of the coast range you are on, then if they go to a port for export then we have cubic metric, or J, and ifn' the goberment sold them they are cubic ft. oh yea the taper is different for cedar. The good news is if we make a dollar we will change the rules to take care of that. This only applies to the left coast, everyone makes their own rules by area. Even the goberment has different rules by region.

 

[Rio_Grande]

Thanks for the replies. We will see this week. If I can make a few hundred a day after expenses I will be thrilled. We have a brush cutting business and it was rolling along til oct, then nothing.

How much bend is alowed in a log? And is there any Benifit in cutting longer if it isint required?

 

[Slamm]

Nevermind.

Sam

 

[northmanlogging]

So back to your original question... If your stumps have an angle cut from the notch side (read face side) that would shed water and your back cut meets it reasonably level and flush then your cuttin with a Humboldt, Yer butt log should be nice and square with no angles...(best laid plans of mice right).

As far as laying the timber down remember that you have to skid them out somehow... and that is where you make or lose money, as a faller its important to remember where your skid roads and what not are going to lay, and lastly most private use trailers (read car trailers) are not rated for the kind of loads that moving logs in any abundance is going to call for, you might be better of getting a big pile and calling in a self loader.

 

[Slamm]

In Indiana, you can have an angle or face cut on the butt end, nobody cares, it gets cut off in the slab wood. Just don't make some massive face.

Beter to face from the top down, and short stump it, then to humboldt it with a high stump.


If you don't know how to mark logs then ask the log buyer to come out and make the logs for you, or you will have a screwed up mess and waste a lot of money and wood. You won't know grade from blocking.

This is just a thought, but you might want to look around and find a veteran cutter that could cut the trees and "help" you out a little for a fee.

If you have any of those Indiana veneer white oaks, you might want to get that sorted out before final transactions are completed.

Over all this smells of a clusterscrew, but if you don't take the shot, you will never know if you hit or miss it.

Sam

 

[Rio_Grande]

I am not disagreeing with you slamm, I wouldn't call this a pro operation by any means. The trees were given to me by the owner to get rid of them. The poplar doesn't make much in the line of firewood and wouldn't be worth cutting for that. Just trying to pay the bills and keep the kids from being hungry or cold. It probably is a cluster that is why I am trying to learn something. Thanks for the input.

I too think I have been using something close to the humbolt.
They were going to log it but nobody wants the poplar and there is only a few oaks. I am just getting what nobody else wants.

 

[Rio_Grande]

On the trailers I agree, mine are 14k equipment trailers x2 and 1 21k 6 wheeled combine hauler. I can't haul big loas but the buyer is close to my home I have a guy who helps me and can operate a truck and trailer, so 2 loads a day probably = 1 of the self loaders I see around here. Buyer told me to stop by and he would show me how he wants the logs. Everyone is being real helpfull. I would love to pay someone to put the trees down and cut the logs out, but I haven't found anyone as of yet to do that for me. That would be perfect to be honest.

 

[slowp]

Here is a link to the old Forest Service log scaling handbook.

I don't see one for an area with hardwoods though.

It might be good to look at. And it is free.

FSH - 2409.11 Code Field Issuances

 

[slowp]

This is a most excellent book on log scaling. I have an ancient hard copy that we were required to get for school. It is the Idaho Log Scaling Manual. I am glad to see it is now on line.

http://www.ibsp.idaho.gov/IdahoLogScalingManual-2008 Edition (print).pdf

 

[slowp]

This'll be the last one. It may be the most relevent too. I found this by googling Timber Volume Tables.
You can use volume tables to come up with a rough timber cruise. This one is for the South but may work as you can compute your own form class. Looks like it is from Kentucky.

To determine a proper form class, you'll either have to dump a few trees or climb a few trees. I think we did 10. This will explain what form class is, also.
So long ago....

Tables for Estimating Board-Foot Volume of Timber

Good night!

 

[Rio_Grande]

Thanks, I was reading one from Tennessee, will give these a look see too.

 

[northmanlogging]

careful with this whole logging thing its more addictive than heroin...

Since you will be needing to move logs try to handle them as little as possible, skid them once if you can, or cold deck em (rough piles in the woods) and then reset so you can take many logs at once, of course you will be limited by what you're pulling them with... The more time you spend dinking around with moving them the less money you're going to make, fuel is expensive, back braking labor (as in moving them by hand peavy etc.) will put you down for days/weeks

Cut yer limbs flush, they should look like telephone poles before they go to the mill.

And as far as Humboldt vs standard(angle on the log) face cuts, this fight will probably be going when all you's peeps grand children are complaining about solar powered chain saws lack of power

 

[Gologit]

The very first thing you need to do is to determine what your market is for the logs. Find out who's paying what and exactly what they want for species, size and length.

Find out what the mill wants and cut your timber accordingly. A deck of logs isn't good for anything except firewood if there isn't a mill to sell it to.

 

[madhatte]

The very first thing you need to do is to determine what your market is for the logs.

Best advice ever. I spent a lot of energy learning that lesson a couple of years ago. Glad I did, because it was a valuable experience, but I shoulda just listened to those wiser than myself in the first place.