Nervously helped my cousin drop a yard tree

[Zale]

When the OP described the tree "popping" and "cracking", to me that's telling me the hinge has failed and didn't hold. I suspect this occurred as the tree started to come over when the pressure built up against the "anti kickback step". Ideally, I would want my hinge to hold until it was past 45 degrees as it was falling. That's what I mean by control. My back cut would be inline with the apex of the face cut.
I'd give you a drawing but I have no idea how to post that.

 

[Oldman47]

You do want a step in at the hinge but a couple of inches is more than enough and it makes judging the hinge thickness easier because the wood grain won't move around much in a couple of inches.

 

[johnnylabguy]

Good info gentlemen! And I think I had him coming in a bit high but was factoring in an amateur sawyer that tends to have the "sloping" felling cut with the weight of the saw. I did not factor in the hinge being "sponge wood squarepants" so to speak. The more I look at that last picture with the weak hinge, I'm glad he asked me to drive a wedge in because there was no holding wood there! Crazy part is two feet up the trunk was solid.

 

[Johnny Yooper]

Speaking about Dolmars........I try to scrounge wood whenever I can, so whenever I hear a chainsaw while we're on our lunchtime walk, my ears guide me to the source of the music and I politely wait for the saw operator to notice me and then strike up a conversation, sometimes it's the homeowner and other times it's a tree service. My coworkers joke that some people are mesmerized by listening to rock 'n roll, some to country/western and me, well....it's two strokes with sharp teeth (a character flaw I can live with). During one of those encounters, quite some time ago, I was talking with a tree service owner who had just dropped two large spruce and during our talk while leaning over the back of his pickup I noticed a bed full of Dolmars and asked him what's up with that; said he never leaves home without 'em; #1 saw to him and proceeded to speak in tongues everything Dolmar, thought he was a dealer on the side there for a minute. I seem to recall him saying something about higher RPM's vs other saws. I suppose if you're in the business then time is money. My Husky's have been treating me very well over the years and haven't yet visited a Dolmar dealer. But....my question to the OP: what do you like or not like about those Dolmars? Maybe I should have made this a separate thread, but hopefully I can at least get some of you Dolmar fans to comment. Thanks in advance.

 

[johnnylabguy]

Speaking about Dolmars........I try to scrounge wood whenever I can, so whenever I hear a chainsaw while we're on our lunchtime walk, my ears guide me to the source of the music and I politely wait for the saw operator to notice me and then strike up a conversation, sometimes it's the homeowner and other times it's a tree service. My coworkers joke that some people are mesmerized by listening to rock 'n roll, some to country/western and me, well....it's two strokes with sharp teeth (a character flaw I can live with). During one of those encounters, quite some time ago, I was talking with a tree service owner who had just dropped two large spruce and during our talk while leaning over the back of his pickup I noticed a bed full of Dolmars and asked him what's up with that; said he never leaves home without 'em; #1 saw to him and proceeded to speak in tongues everything Dolmar, thought he was a dealer on the side there for a minute. I seem to recall him saying something about higher RPM's vs other saws. I suppose if you're in the business then time is money. My Husky's have been treating me very well over the years and haven't yet visited a Dolmar dealer. But....my question to the OP: what do you like or not like about those Dolmars? Maybe I should have made this a separate thread, but hopefully I can at least get some of you Dolmar fans to comment. Thanks in advance.

That 7900 is the only Dolmar I own and I love it. At the time I bought it a couple years ago and u couldn't beat it power per pound then. Not to mention price! I've cooled on my CAD since but it is a great saw with no adjustments needed. And I love to fiddle with stuff! That being said I'm just a firewooder and not a professional but Dolmar has been around a long while. Maybe the longest! I think they'd do better in the U.S. but definately don't market as well as Stihl and Husky(and I like their saws too).

 

[bitzer]

There was enough sound wood in the tree to keep it in line. Ash is a chair prone species, but with a rotten heart like that it would likely never chair. The high backcut is really only worthwhile when laying a tree up a hill. It can keep it from sliding down. Not that high tho. A level stump is ideal in most situations. The wood looks like it broke early. A crack or pop doesn't mean you've lost you're hinge every time. The wood makes noise as its moving. My guess is the tree favored the direction you laid it. Cutting trees around houses can be a *****. Most people wait too long and the tree is already pretty far gone/dead before they think about it. Looked like fun tho. Good rush!

 

[Westboastfaller]

Thank you for your explanation, I thought that's what you must have ment by "better control". A tree assessment such as sounding the tree or borring with the grain for heart rot would have changed the undercut placment for "better control" I am not familiar with Ash but heart rot conks are generally present and are a dead giveaway to what you will find inside. The more wood you leave to split and break the more "cracking & poping" it will make especially with a high step through an unsound log. We have all experienced this when we overcompensate with thick holding wood on our tention side and help it by wedging. In order for the tree to advance forward those extra back fibers have to break or pull making a lot of noise and unnecessary pressure on fibers that should otherwise have been cut. "More is less". This is when I get the feeling of 'less control'. Borring through the stump in front of the holding wood will give fiber movment in these cases and will allow the tree to hold on much longer, or about 3 to 4 cookies out of the stump with a conventional cut but thin enough so you can pop them out with a twist of the bar ( 1/4" to 3/8") do not go deeper and keep them plumb and this will give the undercut an added vertical angle of about 1.5 to 2" when cleaned out. This is called " Johnny hold me tight" works very well as long as the sap wood is not rot.

The pressure is not on the step as its separating from the step.
Isaac Newton's 1st and 3rd laws of motion apply. "What ever starts in forward motion will stay in motion until it comes in contact with another body" example: 'dutchmen', closed undercut, Falling into standing Timber, ect. This brings us to Newton's third law of motion which is "When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body". There we have the anti kickback step. Was Newton a Faller?
@Oldman47 is correct with a 2" step for average trees using a conventional undercut or birdsmouth (pie) 1/2 " to 1" for Humboldt or Swanson.

*By apex you are saying the highest point of your undercut and that would be your step hight? Subjective description without a common diameter you would be referring to, as well a ratio and degree of undercut.

Peace

 

[Westboastfaller]

There was enough sound wood in the tree to keep it in line. Ash is a chair prone species, but with a rotten heart like that it would likely never chair. The high backcut is really only worthwhile when laying a tree up a hill. It can keep it from sliding down. Not that high tho. A level stump is ideal in most situations. The wood looks like it broke early. A crack or pop doesn't mean you've lost you're hinge every time. The wood makes noise as its moving. My guess is the tree favored the direction you laid it. Cutting trees around houses can be a *****. Most people wait too long and the tree is already pretty far gone/dead before they think about it. Looked like fun tho. Good rush!

Like the forefather of Timber Falling said "what ever starts in motion will stay in motion until......" So you are right you don't need the step if you have a plan to get away from your stump, never leave a 'dutchman', never cut a shallow opening,
never cut a conventional undercut, never hit anything before the ground,ect.
To quote Mike Tyson; " everybody have a plan until they get hit". It's generally not one saftey step that gets you, its missing two or better. One is in place for the absence of anther. You are just removing your saftey nets. *Wags finger* lol
I don't use a step on stubies or snag falling in old burns on small diameter because you won't be able to get them to fall without top weight.

 

[Woody912]

I guess we have to read between the lines here. Your comments are a bit vague. If you mean its harder to judge the holding wood with too high of a step then I would agree. Its harder to wedge with the extra vertical holding wood too.
What do you mean by "better control" apposed to control? What do you mean "in line with undercut"? Are you suggesting no anti-kickback step?

I use a high backcut when I am pulling a leaner, feel like it gives me a little more safety margin as I gradually move the tree past the center of gravity in the direction of fall. Once it is there I cut to hinge depth and walk away and buddy pulls it over. Maybe I am just fooling myself?

 

[bitzer]

Like the forefather of Timber Falling said "what ever starts in motion will stay in motion until......" So you are right you don't need the step if you have a plan to get away from your stump, never leave a 'dutchman', never cut a shallow opening,
never cut a conventional undercut, never hit anything before the ground,ect.
To quote Mike Tyson; " everybody have a plan until they get hit". It's generally not one saftey step that gets you, its missing two or better. One is in place for the absence of anther. You are just removing your saftey nets. *Wags finger* lol
I don't use a step on stubies or snag falling in old burns on small diameter because you won't be able to get them to fall without top weight.

What safety does a step give you? Unless you're laying up hill. Even then if there is any kind of bump above the butt will come back over the stump. usually a block face with a snipe on the stump will keep the stem stuck there, but other than that why leave wood you have to trim later? I've had this argument before. In normal circumstances explain to me why does your back cut need to be higher? Maybe in taller wood once the tree is free it may have a tendency to slip back? Usually at that point the forward momentum is pulling the tree ahead. You might have that split second of a backwards slip unless other factors are at play. Side-hilling or laying down hill I don't think that its necessary. I use dutchmans, shallow faces, conventionals, etc. all the time. Maybe the top weight of my timber is really the factor here. When its going it goes.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I sure hope you guys are using a Turfer and he is not doing it by hand...
That sounds cruel...lol. I don't use a higher step when turfing and such, I just chase with wedges. I try to bring it off the lean 180° last one I roped was about a 4' balsam and about 160 ft Falling for new properties south Island. the first 70' leaned back over a house and then cranked over the road 50' below.The first phase of the subdivision over the road was near completion with trucks all parked below. I Phoned the guy that hired me and asked for a Climber and turfer. He sent me a Certified Utility Arborists (CUA) and his apprentice.
He figured why not use the hoe? I didn't like the angle so he tied a block to the tree I wanted. I didn't even pound his bull rope. ha-ha. That was fun I hadn't done that for about 6 years. I was taught alot from a real good coast CUA, falling live wire. This young guy was good. He completely let my call the shots, I believe in the ways Ken taught me. They teach a high step for wedging of small dia against the lean. Thats to give you the extra vertical holding wood strength. Most people don't realize they can be leaving false holding wood with some smaller tree's. I had a close call on live wire with one. If the lower branch collars have just recently healed over and hapens to run parallel with your undercut in your holding wood area on your tention side your are going to lose the tree as the grain runs opposite. I always look for that when the trees are in that stage.

 

[Zale]

What's a "Turfer"?

 

[Woody912]

I sure hope you guys are using a Turfer and he is not doing it by hand...
That sounds cruel...lol. I don't use a higher step when turfing and such, I just chase with wedges. I try to bring it off the lean 180° last one I roped was about a 4' balsam and about 160 ft Falling for new properties south Island. the first 70' leaned back over a house and then cranked over the road 50' below.The first phase of the subdivision over the road was near completion with trucks all parked below. I Phoned the guy that hired me and asked for a Climber and turfer. He sent me a Certified Utility Arborists (CUA) and his apprentice.
He figured why not use the hoe? I didn't like the angle so he tied a block to the tree I wanted. I didn't even pound his bull rope. ha-ha. That was fun I hadn't done that for about 6 years. I was taught alot from a real good coast CUA, falling live wire. This young guy was good. He completely let my call the shots, I believe in the ways Ken taught me. They teach a high step for wedging of small dia against the lean. Thats to give you the extra vertical holding wood strength. Most people don't realize they can be leaving false holding wood with some smaller tree's. I had a close call on live wire with one. If the lower branch collars have just recently healed over and hapens to run parallel with your undercut in your holding wood area on your tention side your are going to lose the tree as the grain runs opposite. I always look for that when the trees are in that stage.

I am just not very good at wedging small diameter trees and I always have a ^%$(# netwire fence behind them to boot hindering my swing and escape path with the wind blowing 20 mph from my fall direction and frequently have limb interference with adjacent trees. So, via ladder I hang a chain about 15' up in the tree and my front bumper hooks, have my bud slowly tension as I start my backcut and then get a wedge in, cut to a decent hinge and then walk away and give him the pull sign. Probably not GOL certified but I feel safest doing it that way

 

[bitzer]

I sure hope you guys are using a Turfer and he is not doing it by hand...
That sounds cruel...lol. I don't use a higher step when turfing and such, I just chase with wedges. I try to bring it off the lean 180° last one I roped was about a 4' balsam and about 160 ft Falling for new properties south Island. the first 70' leaned back over a house and then cranked over the road 50' below.The first phase of the subdivision over the road was near completion with trucks all parked below. I Phoned the guy that hired me and asked for a Climber and turfer. He sent me a Certified Utility Arborists (CUA) and his apprentice.
He figured why not use the hoe? I didn't like the angle so he tied a block to the tree I wanted. I didn't even pound his bull rope. ha-ha. That was fun I hadn't done that for about 6 years. I was taught alot from a real good coast CUA, falling live wire. This young guy was good. He completely let my call the shots, I believe in the ways Ken taught me. They teach a high step for wedging of small dia against the lean. Thats to give you the extra vertical holding wood strength. Most people don't realize they can be leaving false holding wood with some smaller tree's. I had a close call on live wire with one. If the lower branch collars have just recently healed over and hapens to run parallel with your undercut in your holding wood area on your tention side your are going to lose the tree as the grain runs opposite. I always look for that when the trees are in that stage.

I don't know if I believe that extra vertical holding wood malarkey. Wood breaks off the same. Its not like it peels off when you put a block face in. I guess I'm not talking about arb work here either. I don't pull trees.

 

[Westboastfaller]

What safety does a step give you? Unless you're laying up hill. Even then if there is any kind of bump above the butt will come back over the stump. usually a block face with a snipe on the stump will keep the stem stuck there, but other than that why leave wood you have to trim later? I've had this argument before. In normal circumstances explain to me why does your back cut need to be higher? Maybe in taller wood once the tree is free it may have a tendency to slip back? Usually at that point the forward momentum is pulling the tree ahead. You might have that split second of a backwards slip unless other factors are at play. Side-hilling or laying down hill I don't think that its necessary. I use dutchmans, shallow faces, conventionals, etc. all the time. Maybe the top weight of my timber is really the factor here. When its going it goes.

*cracks knuckles...thinks to self I should have him define normal and keep him baffled for a month*

We are creatures of habit, whether they be good or bad. I was an hour drive on dirt roads the other day and 20min off the main and I stoped myself for a second as I was about to turn my turn signal on then I realized its kind of silly as I'm way in the bush, when I quickly made myself do it.
Why do you think that is?

Maybe it won't change the fact that YOU will be hurt out there or not because YOU are aware. You are aware it jumps over the stump ..without a step as you just said.
I trust your habit is not to be in the bite.
There is a greater amount of people Falling that are pros and otherwise opposed to probuction Fallers which make up a very small amount of the 'fallers'. We have all the guys that get their own wood, Danger tree Falling which is probably by far the biggest portion. A lot of the work is close/closed canopy falling and not working a Falling face. unless you work in the mountains such as interior wet bet or coastal wet belt everything is feller buncher here. There is no little guy like you and when there was its all Humboldt in production. When the cut closes on a conventional it closes on a flat surface snaping the holding wood in most case, Its more prone to jumping back hence the higher step. On a Humboldt the compression in the flair is on a ramp so the ramp is anti-kickback as well gets the butt to the ground faster eliminating the whiping action sending the tree back. As you mentioned Falling on a hill, we would use a Swanson with a one to one ratio oposed to a .5 to 1 with the Humboldt. on the coast we use a west coast Swanson which is a Humboldt with a sharp angle out of the front of the stump so it holds on longer but drops like a rock saving you and the wood on hills. I guess with your theory we may as well undercut our undercut..but of course you would have to trim it. Keep doing what you do but I wouldn't promote it as safe practice. I do things that I sure the heck wouldn't teach, or talk about. Some things are left for my eyes only and that's my emotional bathroom. It's just different levels. The onus really wasn't on me to explain as the step wasn't just invented in the new Falling practices. I could have kept it as what you wrote but I'll play.
I have been driving today so excuse the time, heading back to Vancouver.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I don't know if I believe that extra vertical holding wood malarkey. Wood breaks off the same. Its not like it peels off when you put a block face in. I guess I'm not talking about arb work here either. I don't pull trees.

You quoted the wrong guy, I didn't say I turf a tree with a high step at all. and I address what was address to me. Furthermore you completely went off in the wrong direction in regards to what I wrote about burnt hardened trees and stubs. You seem a little abrasive. Is it because your first post wasn't answered right away. Now you got my attention. Next time you want to doubt long time Falling practices keep it away from me. Someone didn't just pull it out of their azz one day.
It's all set on trends. lots of people died you realize. Then they find out whats better.

What do you mean wood breaks off the same? Now you are talking all silly on me.
What does it matter if its pushed or pulled
Arb work or probuction? Its the amount of fibers. Resistance is resistance and the more vertical holding wood the more resistance. Go leave a 10ft step and wedge it (for argument sakes) and tell us wood breaks the same.. Think you been sip'n?
I wouldn't take a run at me out here at the best of times. It's not your time yet. Except the things you can not change.
I use vertical holding wood all the time In production. That's a safe way to do pushes without wedges. Just got to pop an ear muff when you turn your back to walk away,also a faster way to brush out.
You just barber them from one to the next cut. One low cut and split it up to the high cut.
I have nailed many trees with others and not broke the vertical holding wood..

 

[bitzer]

You quoted the wrong guy, I didn't say I turf a tree with a high step at all. and I address what was address to me. Furthermore you completely went off in the wrong direction in regards to what I wrote about burnt hardened trees and stubs. You seem a little abrasive. Is it because your first post wasn't answered right away. Now you got my attention. Next time you want to doubt long time Falling practices keep it away from me. Someone didn't just pull it out of their azz one day.
It's all set on trends. lots of people died you realize. Then they find out whats better.

What do you mean wood breaks off the same? Now you are talking all silly on me.

What does it matter if its pushed or pulled
Arb work or probuction? Its the amount of fibers. Resistance is resistance and the more vertical holding wood the more resistance. Go leave a 10ft step and wedge it (for argument sakes) and tell us wood breaks the same.. Think you been sip"n?
I wouldn't take a run at me out here at the best of times. It's not your time yet. Except the things you can not change.
I use vertical holding wood all the time In production. That's a safe way to do pushes without wedges. Just got to pop an ear muff when you turn your back to walk away. also a faster way to brush out.
You just barber them for to the next cut. One low cut and split it up to the high cut.
I have nailed many trees with others and not broke the vertical holding wood..

Maybe you should go back and re-read. You qouted me right away. You also started talking to me about turfers (groundies i assume) and setting lines, which i thought odd cuz you know i'm not a tree service guy.

Back to this high step- if the face cut is lower than your backcut where does the wood break? It breaks in the same spot as if the cuts are level. At the back of the face. Unless you have fibers exposed in the back of your face how exactly are you getting more vertical holding wood..

When the fibers break as a conventional closes the tree is at angle to the stump. How much of a step do you need to keep that angled butt from slipping up and over the stump? I've tried this many different ways and in only certain circumstances does that higher back cut give you any slip back protection. Hunboldt or a block with a snipe are your best bets when the tree has a possibilty of slipping back.

Attacking me personally with you inner monologue is kind of a ******* move considering the conversations we've had in the past. Maybe you think you qouted someone else? You may want to re-read.

 

[turnkey4099]

Maybe you should go back and re-read. You qouted me right away. You also started talking to me about turfers (groundies i assume) and setting lines, which i thought odd cuz you know i'm not a tree service guy.

Back to this high step- if the face cut is lower than your backcut where does the wood break? It breaks in the same spot as if the cuts are level. At the back of the face. Unless you have fibers exposed in the back of your face how exactly are you getting more vertical holding wood..

When the fibers break as a conventional closes the tree is at angle to the stump. How much of a step do you need to keep that angled butt from slipping up and over the stump? I've tried this many different ways and in only certain circumstances does that higher back cut give you any slip back protection. Hunboldt or a block with a snipe are your best bets when the tree has a possibilty of slipping back.

Attacking me personally with you inner monologue is kind of a ******* move considering the conversations we've had in the past. Maybe you think you qouted someone else? You may want to re-read.

Leavign personalitites out of it...

Your advocating 'level' cuts goes against everything that is taught by the professionals (and yes, I think you are also a pro). You are bucking what has been the accpted way to do things for at leasst a couple of centuries. Which is right? I don't know but you have a long hill to climb to overcome standard practices.

Harry K

 

[bitzer]

Leavign personalitites out of it...

Your advocating 'level' cuts goes against everything that is taught by the professionals (and yes, I think you are also a pro). You are bucking what has been the accpted way to do things for at leasst a couple of centuries. Which is right? I don't know but you have a long hill to climb to overcome standard practices.

Harry K

I get it. I think a lot of it is a function of the wood we're in. What you guys have out there on the coast is a lot different from what I'm cutting. The ground is also very different. That plays a role as well. I don't think level cuts are that far out there. I've seen plenty other than me. I'd be interested to see the number of fatalities/injuries per captia on Canadian soil vs. US. At the pro level of course. From what i've read our brothers to the north are highly regulated in their falling practices. I don't know what its like on the west coast US, but here there are no regs regarding how to cut as far as timber falling goes.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I don't know if I believe that extra vertical holding wood malarkey. Wood breaks off the same. Its not like it peels off when you put a block face in. I guess I'm not talking about arb work here either. I don't pull trees.

I'll quote this post again and clear a few things to start. I was talking to Woody912 about the vertical holding wood on a back lean as he quoted me. I clearly wasn't talking to you in that post, I wasn't talking to you about turfers, my first two sentences should have made that clear.
(Not to say people are not welcome to comment)
He is also the one that said he uses vertical holding wood on back leaning trees for extra security. BCFSC teaches that as correct for wedging small dia against the lean. It's about the holding properties of the vertical wood. This keeps the stress off the holding wood if the wedge was to fall providing the bond wasn't split from previous wedging. already. This tree will not sit back nearly as hard as it would with no step in the absence of a wedge. I believe this to be BC forest saftey counsel's reasoning. That is Woody912 post below that I responded to.
The only other time vertical holding wood is practised under BCFSC is for 'redirects' ; changing Falling direction with a second undercut. Then there is the real west coast Falling. Vertical holding wood and 'bullet trees' is a game changer. Apart from a rare redirect this is what I use vertical holding wood for.
Drop straping on back leaners. It's similar to the heavy leaner approach but its all precut for impact release with about a 9" drop snap.

I will say I generally have always agreed with most all that I've read from you in the past. The way you started talking about vertical holding and talked about 'breaking off the same' sounded like you were talking about the vertical holding wood to me, which I do believe you were talking about the holding wood now.
Holding wood is holding wood and vertical holding wood is vertical holding wood. Sometimes I only use vertical holding wood with a 'bullet'.

I use a high backcut when I am pulling a leaner, feel like it gives me a little more safety margin as I gradually move the tree past the center of gravity in the direction of fall. Once it is there I cut to hinge depth and walk away and buddy pulls it over. Maybe I am just fooling myself?