The other piece of the video that nobody seems to be talking about is that with the 880, he let off the throttle and coasted through the last 1/4 of the cut. I didn't really pay attention to how he ran the 500, but the content of the video itself is garbage because, as you and others have essentially pointed out, there was absolutely zero attempt made to run the saws in a similar configuration or fashion while comparing them. It really gets under my skin when someone puts out such poor quality content.I used to run one saw…066 flat top, red eye….for many years. I had bars from 24 to 42”. I got older…bought an 026 for limbing…was ‘ok’. Then I got. 346xp and shipped it to Dozer Dan. I became a 2-saw wood cutter
now I just collect saws but mainly use the same DD 346 and my MM 500i For firewood cutting and falling.
the others get pulled out for fun every now and then or as backup.
New saw advice.
- Thread starter JJF20
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JJF20
ArboristSite Lurker
Hey All, thought I’d do another quick update here. It’s nice when threads have some updates and pics to see what or how it’s being used. Real mild winter, hardly any snow at all to speak of, figured I’d get at some fire wood.
If you’re like me working with a pickup and tractor, and just want a nice saw for the farm, ranch, camp, homestead, out on the trails and carry with you, etc etc….. This is 261 is working out nicely. No complaints. I don’t need anything bigger at all.
I’ve been hauling it around on the back of an ATV, pickup, you name it. Always fires up. Lots of power for this type of work. 18” bar still works good for me. I’d recommend it all day long. I’ll rebuild my husky 55 someday for a back up, and call it a day.
Thanks again for the help guys, The Jolly Logger - much appreciated.
If you’re like me working with a pickup and tractor, and just want a nice saw for the farm, ranch, camp, homestead, out on the trails and carry with you, etc etc….. This is 261 is working out nicely. No complaints. I don’t need anything bigger at all.
I’ve been hauling it around on the back of an ATV, pickup, you name it. Always fires up. Lots of power for this type of work. 18” bar still works good for me. I’d recommend it all day long. I’ll rebuild my husky 55 someday for a back up, and call it a day.
Thanks again for the help guys, The Jolly Logger - much appreciated.
Im glad youre happy with it. I always considered the 261 and the 346 the best compromise saws out there, the Goldilocks saws if you will. With a sharp chain and good technique, they will do an amazing amount of work, beyond what most people would expect.
As a footnote, I helped a buddy cut up a couple downed cottonwoods a couple weeks ago. He had a brand new 362 with a 20" bar, I just had an old 250 with a 16. I spent 5 minutes touching up the chain, and then proceeded to absolutely smoke him. After I got my tree bucked and limbed, I went over to check on him, we sharpened his brand new chain that had already hit the dirt a time or two, and then had a little seminar on the rest of the tree.
I guess my point is at the end of the day, a saw is just a motor that spins a chain. As long as it starts and runs, the rest is chain and technique. I love my $500.00 McDermott pool cue, but if you beat me at the bar, Im not gonna blame the table or the bar stick, lol.
kd.rodgers
ArboristSite Lurker
Compared to the MS400, I think the 362 better fits your use case and size needs rather than jumping all the way to a 70cc pro beast. The 362 has great power-to-weight ratio to muscle through hardwoods while not being overly bulky
they are the same size and within a few ounces of each other in weight. Biggest didderanxe is a few more $ for the 400 and it will take the 362 lunch money every day of the week. The 362 is a pointless saw since the 400 came out.
Fixed.
Amen!
In the past, a 400 would have been a 362 super.
I agree, 400 makes 362 rather pointless.
I agree, 400 makes 362 rather pointless.
JJF20
ArboristSite Lurker
Thanks. This saw is working good for me. No complaints.
I bucked this up this morning in about 3.5 hrs. Couple 18”. There were a few coffee breaks..
JJF20
ArboristSite Lurker
Gents, I’m back.. saw is working great. No complaints. I keep dulling the chain working close to the ground and in some very dirty wood opening up more trails this year.
I’ve been trying to do some reading on different chains, bars, saws, etc. everything I’m reading goes into a lot of details that are above me. And the threads I read use terms and acronyms that I don’t know. All I’ve learned so far is how much I don’t know, lol.
Any chance there is a good book you can recommend that explains things from the ground up?
Thanks
Jeff
I’ve been trying to do some reading on different chains, bars, saws, etc. everything I’m reading goes into a lot of details that are above me. And the threads I read use terms and acronyms that I don’t know. All I’ve learned so far is how much I don’t know, lol.
Any chance there is a good book you can recommend that explains things from the ground up?
Thanks
Jeff
Can you be more specific on what you're wanting to learn about?
With bars on an 026, there aren't a lot of options. 18" .325 rollomatic is going to be hard to beat on that saw, and the bar is short enough that you're not going to get enough weight savings with a "light" bar to make it worth the extra cost IMHO.
Chains are mostly personal preference. I prefer full chisel chain (Stihl RS or RSC) because I'm cutting relatively clean wood and with my specific setup I feel like it cuts a lot faster. If you're getting into a lot of dirty wood, I'd use a semi-chisel (RM) chain instead because it's performance won't suffer quite as much as it starts to get dull. As far as brand goes, Stihl is commonly accepted as holding an edge longer, but Oregon has some noticeably less expensive and easier to sharpen (slightly softer teeth). If you sharpen after every tank, Oregon is a great choice. If you sharpen as needed (less often than filling up your tank), Stihl chain is likely worth the extra cost.
Not sure what else there is to talk about, but ask away and maybe someone can point to a good reference.
Professional timber falling, Douglas Dent
To Fell a tree, Jeff Jepson
To Fell a tree, Jeff Jepson
JJF20
ArboristSite Lurker
Thank you for the book recommends. I’ll get a copy of those ordered.
Mostly trying to figure out exactly what the acronyms stand for. Ie. RS, RSC, RM, and how the chains are labeled, what each item means. Trying to figure out what chains are what, and which is best for their intended use. Ie what is each one’s intended use?
Different bars as well. one thing I noted on the Stihl bar, is how much more easily it seems to wear, than what I had before. The nose, (or ramp on the nose if you will), has some significant wear. Not sure how to dress it either, with out getting into the gear. I’ll get some pictures this weekend and post them up. I picked up a new bar and chain for now.
Slowly realizing the more trail (really dirty work) work I do, and getting into the dirt quite often it seems without much choice in some cases, the more I should set up one saw just for that. Doing more trail work over the past 3 years than I have in the past 30 yrs. It’s starting to take its toll on things.
The chains (Stihl 23 RS Pro 74) seem to hold up not bad just bucking relatively clean maple logs, but still not quite as good as what I had on my old saw - I might just be imagining that though, but seems to be lots of sharpening. I was using Oregon and Husky chains on my husky 55, not sure of any model numbers on them, I’d have to see if could find their old boxes. The cutting blade on them look larger than the Stihl chains. Can’t say they cut any better than what is on the Stihl, just different I suppose.
Also considering something with a longer bar for some larger logs I have right now. Not sure how long I can put on the 261 or 55. Or what would work best, or if their are different style of bars, with different chains, what chains fit what, if their are bars that should not be used with a particular chain, etc etc etc???
Hence my journey down this road…
Thanks for the help. I’ll snap some pics while I’m working this weekend.
Mostly trying to figure out exactly what the acronyms stand for. Ie. RS, RSC, RM, and how the chains are labeled, what each item means. Trying to figure out what chains are what, and which is best for their intended use. Ie what is each one’s intended use?
Different bars as well. one thing I noted on the Stihl bar, is how much more easily it seems to wear, than what I had before. The nose, (or ramp on the nose if you will), has some significant wear. Not sure how to dress it either, with out getting into the gear. I’ll get some pictures this weekend and post them up. I picked up a new bar and chain for now.
Slowly realizing the more trail (really dirty work) work I do, and getting into the dirt quite often it seems without much choice in some cases, the more I should set up one saw just for that. Doing more trail work over the past 3 years than I have in the past 30 yrs. It’s starting to take its toll on things.
The chains (Stihl 23 RS Pro 74) seem to hold up not bad just bucking relatively clean maple logs, but still not quite as good as what I had on my old saw - I might just be imagining that though, but seems to be lots of sharpening. I was using Oregon and Husky chains on my husky 55, not sure of any model numbers on them, I’d have to see if could find their old boxes. The cutting blade on them look larger than the Stihl chains. Can’t say they cut any better than what is on the Stihl, just different I suppose.
Also considering something with a longer bar for some larger logs I have right now. Not sure how long I can put on the 261 or 55. Or what would work best, or if their are different style of bars, with different chains, what chains fit what, if their are bars that should not be used with a particular chain, etc etc etc???
Hence my journey down this road…
Thanks for the help. I’ll snap some pics while I’m working this weekend.
Each chain mfg uses a different nomenclature for their chains. My stihl cheat sheet is attached. Oregon website has fairly detailed listing of their chains and what they mean. Husqy recently started making their own chain, refer to their website as well.
Generally speaking any round ground chain will hold up better in dirty conditions, trade off is cut speed. I've never cared for round ground myself. I stick to full chisel, or square ground chain even in pretty dirty wood. There is also carbide tipped chain, it's expensive and relatively slow cutting. Needs diamond to sharpen as well. Also has the risk of chipping the tooth or even ripping a tooth complete off. Only ever had one and that was all it took for me not to use it again. Some people seem to like them.
Generally speaking any round ground chain will hold up better in dirty conditions, trade off is cut speed. I've never cared for round ground myself. I stick to full chisel, or square ground chain even in pretty dirty wood. There is also carbide tipped chain, it's expensive and relatively slow cutting. Needs diamond to sharpen as well. Also has the risk of chipping the tooth or even ripping a tooth complete off. Only ever had one and that was all it took for me not to use it again. Some people seem to like them.
Attachments
For dressing bars a cheap 1x30” bench belt sander with 60g belt is great. I’ve been using my little $100 Delta for decades. Use a good machinist square periodically to check square. 1/2 a degree off will have your saw cutting sideways.
If you must cut into dirt on occasion I suggest a carbide chain, re-sharpened to standard chain specs. You will need a diamond wheel on a quality chain grinder to do this…can’t be done by hand. I’ve done this for one of the guys I sharpen chains for. Carbide chains are set for demo work, not general wood cutting so are extremely slow for our purposes. Even resharpened they are only about as fast as regular semi-chisel.
That said…figure out how not to get into the dirt
I'm not a fan of carbide chain. At work, we have tried several different types of carbide, and always go back to standard chain. A friend was working on salvage logging in the Mt. St. Helens blast area and they found it was faster and less expensive to chip all of the bark off of the are they were cutting than to use the carbide chain available at that time.
We have had issues with losing cutters and carbide "inserts", not staying sharp for an entire cut, and the difficulty with re-sharpening. Our sawing environment is pretty harsh, so YMMV.
We have had issues with losing cutters and carbide "inserts", not staying sharp for an entire cut, and the difficulty with re-sharpening. Our sawing environment is pretty harsh, so YMMV.
Bars fit saws, chains fit bars. Sean's information gives a great breakdown of the nomenclature that Stihl uses for their chain. To my knowledge, there are 5 different shapes of cutters that are available. They are Hexa, square ground, full chisel, semi chisel, and safety. These all refer to the shape of the cutting edges on the chain (they are chains, not blades). I won't get into Hexa or square ground because they don't really come into play with a 50cc saw. The other 3 types can all be sharpened with a round file of an appropriate size.
On a full chisel chain, the leading portion of the cutting edge comes to a sharp point. When correctly sharpened, this profile cuts faster than semi-chisel or safety chain. It's also very grabby, and the saw should firmly pull itself into the wood. Full chisel chain also dulls faster than the other two profiles so you need to sharpen it more often. I've always felt like it takes fewer strokes to get it sharp than when sharpening semi-chisel or safety chain, but if you want to get the full benefit out of it, you need to touch up a full chisel chain after every tank of fuel even if you don't get into any dirt with it. If you do get into the dirt with it, it will take more strokes of the file to sharpen than the other 2 types of chain. It's also the easiest type to tell whether or not its sharp because on a properly sharpened chain, the leading point is "cat's claw" sharp.
Safety chain is on the opposite end of the scale. The leading edge forms a large radius. The primary goal of safety chain is for the chain to be less grabby in order to reduce the chance of a kick back. The depth gauges also have a different shape to reduce kickback. The radius on the cutter makes it more difficult for the cutter to initially penetrate the surface of the wood. This reduces the chains ability to bite into (grab) the wood, which reduces the chains efficiency. It also spreads the wear across a larger area, so the cutters don't dull nearly as fast making it a better choice if you're cutting dirty wood. With that said, if you touch the ground with it, it still needs sharpened right away. However, if the cutters encounter small amounts of dirt embedded in the bark, a safety chain does not get as dull as quickly as a full chisel chain does.
Semi chisel is a middle ground between full chisel and safety chain. the leading edge doesn't come to a point, but the radius is much smaller than what's on safety chain. Its a happy middle ground that a lot of people like because its almost as fast as full chisel, but doesn't dull nearly as fast.
The gauge of the chain refers to how thick the drive link is. I can't remember what the common sizes are. I think they are 0.050, 0.058, and 0.0625 (or 0.063). This is the actual measurement of how thick the drive links are in inches when they are new. The gauge of the chain must match the gauge of the bar because it determines how wide the slot on the bar needs to be for that specific chain gauge. With respect to the gauge size, the saws drive sprocket or drive rim are universal and work for all gauge sizes. I've heard that if you start with a .058 bar and chain, that when the bar wears out (the slot becomes too wide) you can simply switch to .063 chain and keep going. I'm not sure how practical this is. Personally, I'd rather repair the bar so that I don't have several chains of the same pitch and length floating around that are of different gauges. To me, that seems like a good opportunity to get the wrong gauge chain on the wrong gauge bar and burn up a clutch or worse.
The spacing (pitch) on the drive links is another variable. The options are .325, 3/8, and .404. It literally refers to how long each of the links are on the chain. Smaller saws (40-55cc) often use .325 chain while saws that are over 50cc often use 3/8. .404 is more rare and is normally only used on big saws. The width of the cut (kerf) produce by chain pitch increases slightly as the pitch increases. That's why smaller saws tend to run .325 chain. Some people will run 3/8 on everything because they don't feel there's enough benefit to running .325 on their smaller saws to make it worth dealing with the hassle of having chains with multiple pitches. The pitch and gauge of the chain MUST match the pitch and gauge of the bar. The pitch of the chain MUST also match the pitch of your drive sprocket or drive rim, and each pitch requires its own diameter of file to sharpen the cutters. So switching from an 18" .325 chain to a 20" 3/8 chain requires you to switch the drive sprocket or drive rim on the saw and use a larger file to sharpen your chain. There are some bars that have a replaceable nose. My understanding is that when using such a bar, it's possible to switch to a different chain pitch and just swap the nose to match without replacing the entire bar. I don't run this kind of bar, so I can't confirm this one way or another.
There are also low profile chains that are used on really small saws like pole saws, and top handle saws. They have a narrower kerf and a shorter cutter, and are absolutely not the same as their standard counterparts. Low profile chains are a topic in and of themselves.
With 3/8 and .404 chain you can get standard (aka full comp or full house) chain, semi skip, or full skip. A standard chain has a 1 cutter for every 2 drive links. A full skip chain is missing half of its cutters meaning it has 1 cutter for every 4 drive links. Semi skip is in between having 1 cutter for every 3 drive links. Semi and full skip chains are useful on longer bars. They provide more room for chip clearance, and there are less teeth engaged in the wood at any given time which reduces the amount of HP required for the saw to pull the chain. Common practice is to use something other than standard chain on bars longer than 28" because when cutting wood that big you run out of room for the chips. If you're running a mid size saw (60cc-70cc) with longer bar (25"-28") its common to run some form of a skip chain to reduce the amount of HP needed to pull the chain, thus keeping your RPM up where the saw needs to be when its working. Switching from a standard chain to a semi or full skip does not require you to change any other component on your saw.
Your 261 has the same mounting bar pattern as a 661 (also the 290 series, 360 series, 380 series, 440 series, and 460 series), so they make bars over 36" that will physically mount to your saw. The problem is that the saw won't have enough power to run it, and its oil pump won't be able to pump enough bar oil to keep it lubricated. I know people who run a 20" bar on a 261, and that's about as big as I'd go. I'm not sure if the oiler will keep up with anything longer or not. Practically speaking, the oil pump is the limiting factor on how long of a bar your saw can run, especially if you running 3/8 chain since you can get that in semi or full skip.
Honestly, if you're in the dirt routinely, you need to change how you're doing things. The only exception to this is when you're trying to remove a stump, or at least cut it sub flush. Even then, I'd try to find a different option.
Hope some of this is more helpful instead of just more confusing.
On a full chisel chain, the leading portion of the cutting edge comes to a sharp point. When correctly sharpened, this profile cuts faster than semi-chisel or safety chain. It's also very grabby, and the saw should firmly pull itself into the wood. Full chisel chain also dulls faster than the other two profiles so you need to sharpen it more often. I've always felt like it takes fewer strokes to get it sharp than when sharpening semi-chisel or safety chain, but if you want to get the full benefit out of it, you need to touch up a full chisel chain after every tank of fuel even if you don't get into any dirt with it. If you do get into the dirt with it, it will take more strokes of the file to sharpen than the other 2 types of chain. It's also the easiest type to tell whether or not its sharp because on a properly sharpened chain, the leading point is "cat's claw" sharp.
Safety chain is on the opposite end of the scale. The leading edge forms a large radius. The primary goal of safety chain is for the chain to be less grabby in order to reduce the chance of a kick back. The depth gauges also have a different shape to reduce kickback. The radius on the cutter makes it more difficult for the cutter to initially penetrate the surface of the wood. This reduces the chains ability to bite into (grab) the wood, which reduces the chains efficiency. It also spreads the wear across a larger area, so the cutters don't dull nearly as fast making it a better choice if you're cutting dirty wood. With that said, if you touch the ground with it, it still needs sharpened right away. However, if the cutters encounter small amounts of dirt embedded in the bark, a safety chain does not get as dull as quickly as a full chisel chain does.
Semi chisel is a middle ground between full chisel and safety chain. the leading edge doesn't come to a point, but the radius is much smaller than what's on safety chain. Its a happy middle ground that a lot of people like because its almost as fast as full chisel, but doesn't dull nearly as fast.
The gauge of the chain refers to how thick the drive link is. I can't remember what the common sizes are. I think they are 0.050, 0.058, and 0.0625 (or 0.063). This is the actual measurement of how thick the drive links are in inches when they are new. The gauge of the chain must match the gauge of the bar because it determines how wide the slot on the bar needs to be for that specific chain gauge. With respect to the gauge size, the saws drive sprocket or drive rim are universal and work for all gauge sizes. I've heard that if you start with a .058 bar and chain, that when the bar wears out (the slot becomes too wide) you can simply switch to .063 chain and keep going. I'm not sure how practical this is. Personally, I'd rather repair the bar so that I don't have several chains of the same pitch and length floating around that are of different gauges. To me, that seems like a good opportunity to get the wrong gauge chain on the wrong gauge bar and burn up a clutch or worse.
The spacing (pitch) on the drive links is another variable. The options are .325, 3/8, and .404. It literally refers to how long each of the links are on the chain. Smaller saws (40-55cc) often use .325 chain while saws that are over 50cc often use 3/8. .404 is more rare and is normally only used on big saws. The width of the cut (kerf) produce by chain pitch increases slightly as the pitch increases. That's why smaller saws tend to run .325 chain. Some people will run 3/8 on everything because they don't feel there's enough benefit to running .325 on their smaller saws to make it worth dealing with the hassle of having chains with multiple pitches. The pitch and gauge of the chain MUST match the pitch and gauge of the bar. The pitch of the chain MUST also match the pitch of your drive sprocket or drive rim, and each pitch requires its own diameter of file to sharpen the cutters. So switching from an 18" .325 chain to a 20" 3/8 chain requires you to switch the drive sprocket or drive rim on the saw and use a larger file to sharpen your chain. There are some bars that have a replaceable nose. My understanding is that when using such a bar, it's possible to switch to a different chain pitch and just swap the nose to match without replacing the entire bar. I don't run this kind of bar, so I can't confirm this one way or another.
There are also low profile chains that are used on really small saws like pole saws, and top handle saws. They have a narrower kerf and a shorter cutter, and are absolutely not the same as their standard counterparts. Low profile chains are a topic in and of themselves.
With 3/8 and .404 chain you can get standard (aka full comp or full house) chain, semi skip, or full skip. A standard chain has a 1 cutter for every 2 drive links. A full skip chain is missing half of its cutters meaning it has 1 cutter for every 4 drive links. Semi skip is in between having 1 cutter for every 3 drive links. Semi and full skip chains are useful on longer bars. They provide more room for chip clearance, and there are less teeth engaged in the wood at any given time which reduces the amount of HP required for the saw to pull the chain. Common practice is to use something other than standard chain on bars longer than 28" because when cutting wood that big you run out of room for the chips. If you're running a mid size saw (60cc-70cc) with longer bar (25"-28") its common to run some form of a skip chain to reduce the amount of HP needed to pull the chain, thus keeping your RPM up where the saw needs to be when its working. Switching from a standard chain to a semi or full skip does not require you to change any other component on your saw.
Your 261 has the same mounting bar pattern as a 661 (also the 290 series, 360 series, 380 series, 440 series, and 460 series), so they make bars over 36" that will physically mount to your saw. The problem is that the saw won't have enough power to run it, and its oil pump won't be able to pump enough bar oil to keep it lubricated. I know people who run a 20" bar on a 261, and that's about as big as I'd go. I'm not sure if the oiler will keep up with anything longer or not. Practically speaking, the oil pump is the limiting factor on how long of a bar your saw can run, especially if you running 3/8 chain since you can get that in semi or full skip.
Honestly, if you're in the dirt routinely, you need to change how you're doing things. The only exception to this is when you're trying to remove a stump, or at least cut it sub flush. Even then, I'd try to find a different option.
Hope some of this is more helpful instead of just more confusing.
JJF20
ArboristSite Lurker
Fields MJ. Thank you, very informative post. I appreciate the time it took to write that. I’ll re read that again tomorrow to get it to sink in.
Singinwood, Sean Donato. Thank you, again appreciated. I’ll have to keep looking things up, such as PICCO, etc.
I took pics today. The biggest problem for me keeping it out of the dirt is stumps, roots, and old rotten stuff that is already half way to dirt and half buried. Even digging things up, it’s still very dirty. Unless I had an excavator and dozer back there, not sure how else I could clear stuff.
I’ve also ruined chains in the past working in the bush doing recovery work, aircraft. But was expected and I don’t do that work anymore. So it’s just dirt I have to contend with. And the odd rock you don’t see.
New bar and chain on the 261 today, and goes through maple like butter again. I beieleive it is a full chisel, and yes it does really pull it through the wood. Not sure if used semi or saftey in the past. To be honest I always went to the same place and used what he gave me, it always just worked. But he’s a long drive for me now, so I’m figuring it out on my own. Might just take a drive down there next week and chat with him as well.
Thanks for the time. Appreciate it.
Stihl bars. New just installed today on bottom.
Stihl bar just replaced. I started to dress it, stopped to take a few pics.
Chains. Top down.
Husky
Oregon
The rest Stihl
New Stihl on bottom.
Husky and Oregon were on the 55 rancher.
Same as above on edge.
Just messing around seeing how they fit around the nose of the old bars.
Husky 55 bars on top and middle. Old Stihl bar on bottom.
Singinwood, Sean Donato. Thank you, again appreciated. I’ll have to keep looking things up, such as PICCO, etc.
I took pics today. The biggest problem for me keeping it out of the dirt is stumps, roots, and old rotten stuff that is already half way to dirt and half buried. Even digging things up, it’s still very dirty. Unless I had an excavator and dozer back there, not sure how else I could clear stuff.
I’ve also ruined chains in the past working in the bush doing recovery work, aircraft. But was expected and I don’t do that work anymore. So it’s just dirt I have to contend with. And the odd rock you don’t see.
New bar and chain on the 261 today, and goes through maple like butter again. I beieleive it is a full chisel, and yes it does really pull it through the wood. Not sure if used semi or saftey in the past. To be honest I always went to the same place and used what he gave me, it always just worked. But he’s a long drive for me now, so I’m figuring it out on my own. Might just take a drive down there next week and chat with him as well.
Thanks for the time. Appreciate it.
Stihl bars. New just installed today on bottom.
Stihl bar just replaced. I started to dress it, stopped to take a few pics.
Chains. Top down.
Husky
Oregon
The rest Stihl
New Stihl on bottom.
Husky and Oregon were on the 55 rancher.
Same as above on edge.
Just messing around seeing how they fit around the nose of the old bars.
Husky 55 bars on top and middle. Old Stihl bar on bottom.
Don’t just hand file the bar rails…no way to get them square that way.
JJF20
ArboristSite Lurker
That’s the only way I’ve done it. I’ll look into a tool / guide. What do recommend when close to the nose, into the area where the gear starts to protrude through the guide?
