New SpeedPro Kinetic Log Splitter from TSC...

[Naked Arborist]

speed vs clutch engagement

Just remember guys that the clutch engagement speed is determined buy the engines operating RPM not the speed at which the flywheels are turning. So, if you want to lessen the stress when a flywheel is stopped a smaller clutch may or may not help slippage based on it's clamping force at a given RPM. I'll bet it wont last as long. It may overheat faster being there is less friction surface and the motor will be able to drive through the clutch much easier. Second thing is there will be a smaller diameter on the friction surface so that will also make it easier for the engine to drive on. IMO a larger diameter clutch is easier to slip because it has less clamping force per square inch at lower speeds on the contact surface area (with larger springs installed on it). I may be wrong about that.

I guess the bottom line on clamping force is the amount of fiction that the clutch creates based on it's material and the clutch weights vs spring tension. It would take a good engineer to figure out what would be best in the low RPM high load situation here. An "engineer I am not" lol.

Has anyone even taken into account the width of the clutch shoes? Seems like it will be a factor also.

 

[Dozer Man]

Just remember guys that the clutch engagement speed is determined buy the engines operating RPM not the speed at which the flywheels are turning. So, if you want to lessen the stress when a flywheel is stopped a smaller clutch may or may not help slippage based on it's clamping force at a given RPM. I'll bet it wont last as long. It may overheat faster being there is less friction surface and the motor will be able to drive through the clutch much easier. Second thing is there will be a smaller diameter on the friction surface so that will also make it easier for the engine to drive on. IMO a larger diameter clutch is easier to slip because it has less clamping force per square inch at lower speeds on the contact surface area (with larger springs installed on it). I may be wrong about that.

I guess the bottom line on clamping force is the amount of fiction that the clutch creates based on it's material and the clutch weights vs spring tension. It would take a good engineer to figure out what would be best in the low RPM high load situation here. An "engineer I am not" lol.

Has anyone even taken into account the width of the clutch shoes? Seems like it will be a factor also.

Actually I was hoping to just change the pulley size without changing the actual clutch size itself. Haven't really looked very hard for belt pulley clutches yet, but what I have found don't have a small enough pulley on them for what I will need. I was hoping as long as the hp rating was the same that I would be safe. But you are correct, I will have to take into account the actual clutch diameter itself too, not just the pulley size, to keep things into spec. As you said, an engineer I am not !!! Learning as I go.

 

[Dozer Man]

Flywheel and Pulley Measurements

Ok, here goes what I've found...and just to be clear, these measurements were taken with a tape measure, not calipers or dials. So they are close but by no means excact.

Flywheel dia.; 18 5/8" o.d. with groove depth of 5/8" (belts riding in bottom of groove)
Pulley dia.; 3 5/8" o.d. with the belts riding only approx 1/4" deep (actual groove depth 7/16")
Pinion shaft dia.; 2" o.d. with what felt like 1/4" gear depth (just felt it with finger)

So that would make my best guess at...
Flywheel dia. @ 17.375" (subtracting 1 1/4" for groove depth)
Pulley dia. @ 3.125" (figuring bottom of belt ride depth as the actual pulley dia.)

Engine RPM @ 3600 = flywheel @ 647.48 rpm
Engine RPM @ 2600 = flywheel @ 467.63 rpm

If my figures are close, that's fast. Correct me if I've missed something...PLEASE !!

I'm throwing this out there for input from others. And I also know that pinion shaft size will determine actual ram speed, which is what really matters. I can figure the speedpro, but pinion shaft size is the only SS figure that I don't have for comparison.

 

[Granite Stater]

One of the first things I did was align and tighten the belts on this thing. Thinking about loosening them up a little now.

I would definitely lean toward less tension in the belts than more.

Went to see Paul at his SS shop this morning to get some parts for a splitter they made in the mid 90s that I recently grabbed off Craigslist. He said the belts should be loose enough to slip at the pulley if the wheels stall and also recommended a couple drops of oil on the clutch shoes occasionally to allow slippage which takes some strain of the belts until manual disengagement. He was clear that spontaneous disengagement when the pinion is under heavy load will damage things if it happens enough. On the SS it drives the cam stop arm down hard onto the rack, enough to bend it up. This reduces the overcenter cam travel resulting in what I call Engagement Dysfunction, thats right Splitter ED. Not sure how the SpeedPro regulates cam travel but thought an understanding of how the SS operates might help you guys solve some of your issues. I was about to go over the fence and get the SpeedPro when the sweet deal came up on CL.

Also FYI, after some 15 years of homeowner use on the SS, it only needed a few bucks in repairs. The rack lift bearing was shot and had a flat spot, it probably takes the most abuse of all the cam-follower bearings used in these machines, the others were like new. Keep an eye on that to make sure it stays square to line of travel. Most of the problems were with the clutch so some proactive maintenance is recommended here. The set screw came loose allowing sloppy fit on the crank. The key was shot and I will have to attempt to repair some damage done to the crank keyway and hope I can get enough pressure on that set screw to hold the clutch tight. The pulley bushing was also toast. Paul recommends keeping that oiled and to not leave the splitter at idle too long. Had to flip the wear plate also. The rack showed no sign of wear, the pinion does have some light gouging so I'll probably flip that also when I feel energetic.

And if you guys are really determined to calculate ram speed, why not just measure the amount of travel in inches correspondiing to one revolution of the pinion, and multiply that by RPMs, and divide by 60 for inches per second.

 

[sunfish]

Dozer, without doin the math, your #s look right. And show that the machine is runnin way too fast. Find a drive/clutch pulley closer to what SS uses and you should be in good shape.

Granite Stater, that's good info right there man!

 

[KiwiBro]

He said the belts should be loose enough to slip at the pulley if the wheels stall and also recommended a couple drops of oil on the clutch shoes occasionally to allow slippage which takes some strain of the belts until manual disengagement.

Do you have to take the clutch off every time you want to do that or maybe there are a few small holes in the drum for that or?

 

[Dozer Man]

I would definitely lean toward less tension in the belts than more.

Went to see Paul at his SS shop this morning to get some parts for a splitter they made in the mid 90s that I recently grabbed off Craigslist. He said the belts should be loose enough to slip at the pulley if the wheels stall and also recommended a couple drops of oil on the clutch shoes occasionally to allow slippage which takes some strain of the belts until manual disengagement. He was clear that spontaneous disengagement when the pinion is under heavy load will damage things if it happens enough. On the SS it drives the cam stop arm down hard onto the rack, enough to bend it up. This reduces the overcenter cam travel resulting in what I call Engagement Dysfunction, thats right Splitter ED. Not sure how the SpeedPro regulates cam travel but thought an understanding of how the SS operates might help you guys solve some of your issues. I was about to go over the fence and get the SpeedPro when the sweet deal came up on CL.

And if you guys are really determined to calculate ram speed, why not just measure the amount of travel in inches correspondiing to one revolution of the pinion, and multiply that by RPMs, and divide by 60 for inches per second.

Thanks for that info. That confirmed alot of things. And as for the ram speed, that would be too easy. We gotta figure it out on paper first, just like the engineers do!! Just kidding. That's a good idea, especially once we have a half-way accurate flywheel rpm.

Thanks again!!!

 

[Granite Stater]

Do you have to take the clutch off every time you want to do that or maybe there are a few small holes in the drum for that or?

Paul recommends removing the pulley to check under the hood, lube the shoes, and give that bushing an oil bath every 100 hours. Between that PM interval you might be able to spritz the clutch drum with a little WD-40 from time to time.

 

[KiwiBro]

Sorry I haven't been posting here for the past several days, but my computer died & is beyond repair. Trying to get an old one back in service now, but not having any luck getting micro soft Service Pack 3 onto it . Can't connect to the internet (wireless) without SP3, and can't get SP3 without being connected. What's a dummy like me to do? Any of you guys computer gurus? Right now I'm on a friend's computer, but hope to have something of my own running again soon. Will keep checking in on this & other threads as I can. Good luck guys. Claude

If you are talking SP3 then I'm assuming (the mother of all screw-ups) is Windows XP. You can download the SP3 using another computer ( http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=183302 ), burn to a disk and run it from that, or just order a CD from Micro$oft (http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=184017).

 

[philwillmt]

Ok, here goes what I've found...and just to be clear, these measurements were taken with a tape measure, not calipers or dials. So they are close but by no means excact.

Flywheel dia.; 18 5/8" o.d. with groove depth of 5/8" (belts riding in bottom of groove)
Pulley dia.; 3 5/8" o.d. with the belts riding only approx 1/4" deep (actual groove depth 7/16")
Pinion shaft dia.; 2" o.d. with what felt like 1/4" gear depth (just felt it with finger)

So that would make my best guess at...
Flywheel dia. @ 17.375" (subtracting 1 1/4" for groove depth)
Pulley dia. @ 3.125" (figuring bottom of belt ride depth as the actual pulley dia.)

Engine RPM @ 3600 = flywheel @ 647.48 rpm
Engine RPM @ 2600 = flywheel @ 467.63 rpm

If my figures are close, that's fast. Correct me if I've missed something...PLEASE !!

I'm throwing this out there for input from others. And I also know that pinion shaft size will determine actual ram speed, which is what really matters. I can figure the speedpro, but pinion shaft size is the only SS figure that I don't have for comparison.

Sounds like we better keep the RPM's to 2K or slower until we come up with a smaller clutch! Good info Dozer Man...thanks!

 

[philwillmt]

Just remember guys that the clutch engagement speed is determined buy the engines operating RPM not the speed at which the flywheels are turning. So, if you want to lessen the stress when a flywheel is stopped a smaller clutch may or may not help slippage based on it's clamping force at a given RPM. I'll bet it wont last as long. It may overheat faster being there is less friction surface and the motor will be able to drive through the clutch much easier. Second thing is there will be a smaller diameter on the friction surface so that will also make it easier for the engine to drive on. IMO a larger diameter clutch is easier to slip because it has less clamping force per square inch at lower speeds on the contact surface area (with larger springs installed on it). I may be wrong about that.

I guess the bottom line on clamping force is the amount of fiction that the clutch creates based on it's material and the clutch weights vs spring tension. It would take a good engineer to figure out what would be best in the low RPM high load situation here. An "engineer I am not" lol.

Has anyone even taken into account the width of the clutch shoes? Seems like it will be a factor also.

A larger clutch equals an increase in the centrifugal force applied to the brake lining, so a smaller clutch should be easier to slip. Also, the larger the clutch, the more brake lining and drum surface, thus harder to slip. The spring pressure on the clutch brakes is the determining factor as to how many RPM's it has to see before engaging, and they come in a wide variety of ranges.

 

[Dozer Man]

Smaller diameter pulley

:censored: Having more trouble than I thought finding a clutch with a smaller diameter pulley....So far all I can find is 3" and bigger.

 

[BSD]

Sounds like we better keep the RPM's to 2K or slower until we come up with a smaller clutch! Good info Dozer Man...thanks!

i'll have to check but I don't think my clutch engages until 2300 on mine.

 

[philwillmt]

i'll have to check but I don't think my clutch engages until 2300 on mine.

You should be able to run the engine speed higher than desired long enough to apply enough centrifugal force to the clutch to get the flywheels up to speed, then reduce the engine speed to the desired setting. It takes way less clutch engagement pressure to maintain flywheel speed than it does to bring them up to speed.

 

[TFPace]

Centrifical clutch

Here is clutch that might be of interest

Hilliard Industrial Clutches, Brakes, and Fluid Filtration

This clutch engages at 1,800rpm. Pulley O.D. = 3.0" ....sorry Dozer

 

[Denny M]

Is it possible to cut off the pulley on your clutch drum and weld on a smaller pulley? Just a thought. I am not positive but I think that is how the one on my Flack Hill Machine was made.

 

[Jules083]

I don't know what the SuperSplit clutch looks like, but could a clutch assembly be ordered for a SS and put on our splitters? It's the correct size, and obviously it works good and hold up to a splitter. Will it fit, or is there some other sort of design with it?

Edit- SS's website doesn't show anything about the clutch, other than saying it has one.

 

[Dozer Man]

Limited pulley size

My guess is that most manufacturers, with a need for a centrifugul drive clutch pulley, deal with the limited size range by adjusting the "driven" pulley size. With little option on adjusting the driven pulley in the kinetic splitter business, I'd guess they special order their centrifugul clutches with the size pulley they need for the application.

DennyM, that's a good idea. There are centrifugul clutch manufacturers that advertise the ability to custom build. Cost would be my concern.

Jules083, hate to say it, but this will probly be the cheapest option, yet probly still not cheap(guessing $100+). I'd guess the engine shaft sizes are the same (kohler vs. subaru). Boy that would be a serious plateful of crow to eat though. I'm not sure if Paul would want to help and I'm definately not sure if I want to ask. On the other hand, if it's just selling parts, who knows. This is a last resort option for me, mainly out of respect for Paul, SS and the products they produce.

I'll keep looking for options and check prices for a custom built clutch. I will def. talk to SpeeCo, they may have some kind of gear ratio change in mind too. Or at least point me in the direction of an inexpensive alternative. My guess is they have the equipment to make such a modification to one of there own clutches.

 

[schaaed1]

Call DR and find the price of "29462 Clutch, Centrifugal Dual Sheave".:smile2:

I have found this thread very interesting, and certianly sounds like you guys are on the right track. But the question I can't get my head around is, are these clutches the same as a 'mini-bike'clutch (granted the chain vs belt diff)? It would seam to me that these would need to be a special type of clutch. Since you are not slowing the engine down enough (during a jam) to release the centrifugal force on the shoes/pads inside the clutch. I think (maybe I am wrong ... more familiar with sled type clutches) these clutches are going to want to stay 'hooked up' as long as the engine RPM is there. Sure, given enough force, the pads would eventually slip (or put enough strain on the engine to lower the rpm & disingage) ... but slipping clutch pads can't be too good on the clutch life.

 

[Dozer Man]

Call DR and find the price of "29462 Clutch, Centrifugal Dual Sheave".:smile2:

I have found this thread very interesting, and certianly sounds like you guys are on the right track. But the question I can't get my head around is, are these clutches the same as a 'mini-bike'clutch (granted the chain vs belt diff)? It would seam to me that these would need to be a special type of clutch. Since you are not slowing the engine down enough (during a jam) to release the centrifugal force on the shoes/pads inside the clutch. I think (maybe I am wrong ... more familiar with sled type clutches) these clutches are going to want to stay 'hooked up' as long as the engine RPM is there. Sure, given enough force, the pads would eventually slip (or put enough strain on the engine to lower the rpm & disingage) ... but slipping clutch pads can't be too good on the clutch life.

I understand and agree with what you are saying. We keep talking about stalling these machines and what we forget to mention enough is that they rarely stall. The last time I split a truckoad, it stalled one time. And actually that was the time it popped out of gear. I'm sure if you talk to the SS and DR guys, they will tell you that unless you are splitting knarly knotted pieces all the time, stalling rarely happens. And thanks for the DR part numbers, I will call them to find out the diameter of there clutch pulleys. Good idea!!