New SpeedPro Kinetic Log Splitter from TSC...

[philwillmt]

How many teeth on the pinion and what is the approximate diameter? What is the diameter of the flywheel and engine pulley? As a supersplit owner I am surprised to hear that pinion is spinning that fast on the Speedpro. I have messed around quite a bit with my Supersplit and found that I did not like a faster pinion speed than what was designed.

CUCV,

I will have to do some measuring to get that information. Question...does the ram on your Super Split automatically disengage after striking a hard piece of wood? If so, does it happen more often at higher speeds? And, if so, are any parts breaking or bending when it happens? Are there any safety issues or concerns associated with the auto disengagement, if and when this happens? I'm told ALL inertia splitters auto disengage, regardless of manufacturer. I would like to learn more about this from a Super Split owner's perspective. Thanks!

 

[CampHamp]

Question...does the ram on your Super Split automatically disengage after striking a hard piece of wood? If so, does it happen more often at higher speeds? And, if so, are any parts breaking or bending when it happens? Are there any safety issues or concerns associated with the auto disengagement, if and when this happens? I'm told ALL inertia splitters auto disengage, regardless of manufacturer. I would like to learn more about this from a Super Split owner's perspective. Thanks!

From a DR-owner's perspective...
The DR machine (5 cords through it) does not disengage when it gets stuck in a hard log. The engine chugs and strains, but the operator would need to release the handle for the ram to disengage. Every machine will disengage at the end of the rack, at full extension. Maybe that is what the engineer meant when he said all models do this? Also, with the DR, if there is much pressure on the ram at the very end of its extension, then the handle is forced back instead of its usually boring "clank" and release. This doesn't happen often, but a couple of times a split piece has turned sideways in front of the ram at the last second and the handle was forced back with some violence (happend twice to me - so now I am more careful to release the split before the end of the ram travel just in case).

Hope that helps.

So it seems like the SpeeCo team have dropped the new, harder rack replacement idea. I thought they would opt to slow the engine down and disable the disengagement mechanism to accomplish the fix, though. The smaller pinion is an interesting twist! It will slow the ram speed, but will you then need to spin those wheels faster than 50% throttle and then have more kenitic energy behind that ram? Maybe the new rod will have no disengegment flange and it will disengage only at the end of the rack, like their competitor's do.

I hope it works as I think that strong competition will only help to drive innovation, improvements and lower prices into this important market...

 

[Dozer Man]

too fast

These measurements were taken with a tape measure. They are by no means exact, but they are very close.

Flywheel dia. = 17.375" (measured @ most inside point of belt)
Drive pulley dia. = 3.125" (measured @ most inside point of belt)
Pinion pitch dia. = 1.625" (outside dia. 2" minus the height of 1 tooth @ 3/8"per tooth)

Using the recommended engine rpm of 3850 rpm......
And giving a 10% +/- error......
That equates to.....

Flywheel/pinion speed = 692 rpm (+/-10% = 622-761rpm)
Pinion gear circumpherence = 5.1025" (+/-10% = 4.6-6.61")
Ram speed = 4.9 feet per second (fps) (+/-10% = 4.41-5.39 fps)
Even at engine speed of 2550rpm, that equates to a ram speed of 3.5-3.9fps

Sounds fast to me....

My best guess for SS ram speed is between 2-2.5 fps @ wide open throttle (wot), NOT @ just above clutch engagement speed.

And I also would like to ask all SuperSplit and DR Rapidfire owners.....
Does your engagement handle ever "kick-out of gear" when it can't split a round??? Or does it "stall the ram" until you disengage the engagement handle manually???

Again and still... Imho... This thing needs a smaller diameter drive clutch pulley!!! Needs to be between 1.5" to 2". 1.75" would be my actual preference, that would let me run my engine @ 3000-3200rpm.

 

[sunfish]

I got a call from the head of Engineering with SpeeCo today. We discussed the auto ram disengagement issue, and he assured me that it is normal for the rack to auto disengage from time to time, depending on the circumstances. He also assured me that the other brands do the same thing. We also discussed engine speed, and he told me there is no need to run it at full speed. I couldn't agree with him more...at least on this issue! I informed him that the owners manual says to run it at full throttle. I was told SpeeCo's remedy is going to be a rack gear and push rod (a.k.a. engagement rod) replacement. Not sure what that has to do with the over-speed and repeated auto disengagement issues, but oh well. We should be hearing something from them in one form or another within a couple of weeks. Based on this information, I'm not sure where to go from here! Not what I was hoping to hear...:help:

He is very wrong here. I've had my SS 18 months and have split around 20+ full cords. It has not once disengaged when hitting a piece of wood. I have to manually disengage when it hits a piece it can't split. The ram also re-tracks when I do this and 9 times out of ten it only takes one more hit to split the gnarly piece.

 

[Cmccul8146]

He is very wrong here. It has not once disengaged when hitting a piece of wood. I have to manually disengage when it hits a piece it can't split.

Exactly right sunfish!!! My homebuilt splitter has NEVER disengaged when it hit a piece it wouldn't split on 1 hit. The ram stops because the clutch is slipping & you manually disengage the gears, as you said. If it's disengaging on it's own, something is not adjusted just right. Someone on here commented that the cam stop has to be set so that the cam is just forward of being verticle when engaged, but I learned as I was building mine that the cam has to be EXACTLY verticle , or perpendicular to the rack when engaged, or else it may not disengage at the end of the stroke. Luckily I discovered this by turning my flywheels by hand before ever putting anything under power. Also some of the DR owners who have commented on the SpeedPro thread mentioned holding the engagement lever when they split. With the SS or my homebuilt, when you pull the lever, you let it go & get ready to grab another piece to split. No holding lever necessary at all. SpeedPro's problems mainly lie in spinning flywheels way too fast, and probably improperly adjusted cam stop. The MAX rpm for the cast flywheels is 300, so someone is likely to have a flywheel explode if the are running at the speeds the owners here say. DR advertises theirs at 400 rpm, which is also too fast for cast flywheels. A piece of sheepskin does not make a guy an engineer any more than standing in a garage makes him a car. A little common sense, research , & planning goes a long way in product design.

 

[Jester3775]

Please

Hi Guys,
Please re-read post # 609
I feel confident I figured it out, it really is that simple.
I am talking from recent, personal and hands on experience.
If anyone has any additional questions, please ask.

Jesse

 

[Dozer Man]

Simple but effective

Hi Guys,
Please re-read post # 609
I feel confident I figured it out, it really is that simple.
I am talking from recent, personal and hands on experience.
If anyone has any additional questions, please ask.

Jesse

Thanks for reminding me of your earlier post. I planned on looking at your post again when I got time to tear into this thing. Everything you said makes perfect sense. I've seen in the DR pics and vids that they have an adjustible stop and assumed that was the place to start. How much wood have you split since you did your fix? Any knotted pieces? I'm sure I will have more questions when I tear into it.

From what I've heard, Speeco is going to replace the rack and the engagement rod. Not sure if that is all they are going to replace. We should know in a couple of weeks though.

 

[Jules083]

I got a call from the head of Engineering with SpeeCo today. We discussed the auto ram disengagement issue, and he assured me that it is normal for the rack to auto disengage from time to time, depending on the circumstances. He also assured me that the other brands do the same thing.

Look at the video in this thread, at around 2:10. That is what my new SS does, apparantly the DR does the same thing. I'd like to know what 'other brands' he was referring to.

*edit- here's the thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/189044.htm

Dozer Man, I haven't forgot about you. It was dark when I got home, I don't have any lights in my shed. I'll get that measurement tomorrow morning.

 

[Jester3775]

Thanks for reminding me of your earlier post. I planned on looking at your post again when I got time to tear into this thing. Everything you said makes perfect sense. I've seen in the DR pics and vids that they have an adjustible stop and assumed that was the place to start. How much wood have you split since you did your fix? Any knotted pieces? I'm sure I will have more questions when I tear into it.

From what I've heard, Speeco is going to replace the rack and the engagement rod. Not sure if that is all they are going to replace. We should know in a couple of weeks though.

Hi Dozer !
I split with it for a few hours after the last fix, did not have a single disengagement.
Dealt with a # of knotted pcs. that stopped it, but stopped it like it should ! (IMHO)

 

[philwillmt]

Look at the video in this thread, at around 2:10. That is what my new SS does, apparantly the DR does the same thing. I'd like to know what 'other brands' he was referring to.

*edit- here's the thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/189044.htm

Dozer Man, I haven't forgot about you. It was dark when I got home, I don't have any lights in my shed. I'll get that measurement tomorrow morning.

This video shows exactly what I have been saying all along...it shows what should happen when splitting a hard piece of wood. I can assure you that my SpeedPro definately does not react that way! No one should have to be continually concerned about getting their hand out of the way of the handle quick enough before getting a broke finger from a violent auto disengagement. It's simply a matter of poor design! By the way...the other brands the engineer was referring to are the Super Split and the DR Rapidfire. Go figure.

 

[philwillmt]

He is very wrong here. It has not once disengaged when hitting a piece of wood. I have to manually disengage when it hits a piece it can't split.

Someone on here commented that the cam stop has to be set so that the cam is just forward of being verticle when engaged, but I learned as I was building mine that the cam has to be EXACTLY verticle , or perpendicular to the rack when engaged, or else it may not disengage at the end of the stroke.

The position of the engagement mechanism is one of two things the SpeeCo engineer and I agree on, and that is that there is a very fine line concerning where the engagement mechanism should stop. The rack and pinion gear are fully meshed, or at least as much as they ever will be, when the engagement mechanism is exactly vertical. As a result, any travel before or past the vertical position means the rack and pinion are less than fully engaged. The further away from exactly vertical, the more the disengagement. However, at exactly vertical, the mechanism is likely to move in either direction. In other words, there's nothing keeping it from disengaging. Therefore, there has to be a stop, and the stop should be set to allow the engagement mechanism to travel ever so slightly past vertical. In this position, the mechanism is "locked" into place, and can only change positions when the ram reaches the end of its travel, or when the handle is manually disengaged. And, this was another thing the SpeeCo engineer and I did NOT agree on...he says it is normal for the ram to disengage when something hard is hit, and I still say it is not. In my way of thinking, if the engagement mechanism is set properly, it CANNOT disengage when something hard is hit, as that will only apply lateral force to the mechanism, thus pushing it even harder against the stop. A good example of this, for the bow hunters out there, is a mechanical release. The stop on the trigger is set to stop just past center of the roller, thus "locking" it in the closed position. When set properly, you can pull against it as hard as you want to, but you'll never open it until you pull the trigger ever so slightly, which causes the roller to go past vertical and release the string. It's a simple, yet ingenious design, and it has to be set properly to work the way it is designed to work.

 

[Jester3775]

This video shows exactly what I have been saying all along...it shows what should happen when splitting a hard piece of wood. I can assure you that my SpeedPro definately does not react that way! No one should have to be continually concerned about getting their hand out of the way of the handle quick enough before getting a broke finger from a violent auto disengagement. It's simply a matter of poor design! By the way...the other brands the engineer was referring to are the Super Split and the DR Rapidfire. Go figure.

With the fixes I talked about in my earlier posts, my SpeedPro reacted almost exactly the same way.
(Although I still didn't like the higher geared speed of the "ram")
Thanks for the link to the very good reference video !

 

[Jester3775]

The position of the engagement mechanism is one of two things the SpeeCo engineer and I agree on, and that is that there is a very fine line concerning where the engagement mechanism should stop. The rack and pinion gear are fully meshed, or at least as much as they ever will be, when the engagement mechanism is exactly vertical. As a result, any travel before or past the vertical position means the rack and pinion are less than fully engaged. The further away from exactly vertical, the more the disengagement. However, at exactly vertical, the mechanism is likely to move in either direction. In other words, there's nothing keeping it from disengaging. Therefore, there has to be a stop, and the stop should be set to allow the engagement mechanism to travel ever so slightly past vertical. In this position, the mechanism is "locked" into place, and can only change positions when the ram reaches the end of its travel, or when the handle is manually disengaged. And, this was another thing the SpeeCo engineer and I did NOT agree on...he says it is normal for the ram to disengage when something hard is hit, and I still say it is not. In my way of thinking, if the engagement mechanism is set properly, it CANNOT disengage when something hard is hit, as that will only apply lateral force to the mechanism, thus pushing it even harder against the stop. A good example of this, for the bow hunters out there, is a mechanical release. The stop on the trigger is set to stop just past center of the roller, thus "locking" it in the closed position. When set properly, you can pull against it as hard as you want to, but you'll never open it until you pull the trigger ever so slightly, which causes the roller to go past vertical and release the string. It's a simple, yet ingenious design, and it has to be set properly to work the way it is designed to work.

IMHO opinion you are exactly right on, and you worded it very well (made good sense !)
Thanks

 

[Cmccul8146]

The rack and pinion gear are fully meshed, or at least as much as they ever will be, when the engagement mechanism is exactly vertical. As a result, any travel before or past the vertical position means the rack and pinion are less than fully engaged. The further away from exactly vertical, the more the disengagement.
However, at exactly vertical, the mechanism is likely to move in either direction. In other words, there's nothing keeping it from disengaging. Therefore, there has to be a stop, and the stop should be set to allow the engagement mechanism to travel ever so slightly past vertical. In this position, the mechanism is "locked" into place, and can only change positions when the ram reaches the end of its travel, or when the handle is manually disengaged.

philwillmt, I fully agree with the 1st paragraph of your above post, but not so much with the 2nd paragraph. My homebuilt inertia splitter has the cam stop located on the engagement rod. When I pull the handle to engage ,the stop bottoms out on the bracket so that the cam is exactly vertical. Doesn't need to go past vertical to prevent disengagement for 1 simple reason. When the gears are engaged, the rack lifting spring is keeping upward pressure on the cam roller. As the rack is being moved out by the pinion gear, the cam roller is "locked" against the rack & rotating counterclockwise. The pressure from the rack lifting spring is trying to pull the cam roller in the direction of rack travel, so it won't go in the opposite direction as you might think. The "trip relief" at the end of the rack causes the cam & rack to "unlock" , spring lifts the rack off pinion, & return springs pull rack back to home position. Anything past straight up & down on the cam and my homebuilt didn't disengage properly every time before I put an engine on it. I corrected this by adjusting the stop & have not had any issues with it. , I can't really say for these commercially built splitters, but it works for me. Mine was built from 3 pictures I took of a SS I saw at a demo & a 3 year old memory.

 

[philwillmt]

philwillmt, I fully agree with the 1st paragraph of your above post, but not so much with the 2nd paragraph. My homebuilt inertia splitter has the cam stop located on the engagement rod. When I pull the handle to engage ,the stop bottoms out on the bracket so that the cam is exactly vertical. Doesn't need to go past vertical to prevent disengagement for 1 simple reason. When the gears are engaged, the rack lifting spring is keeping upward pressure on the cam roller. As the rack is being moved out by the pinion gear, the cam roller is "locked" against the rack & rotating counterclockwise. The pressure from the rack lifting spring is trying to pull the cam roller in the direction of rack travel, so it won't go in the opposite direction as you might think. The "trip relief" at the end of the rack causes the cam & rack to "unlock" , spring lifts the rack off pinion, & return springs pull rack back to home position. Anything past straight up & down on the cam and my homebuilt didn't disengage properly every time before I put an engine on it. I corrected this by adjusting the stop & have not had any issues with it. , I can't really say for these commercially built splitters, but it works for me. Mine was built from 3 pictures I took of a SS I saw at a demo & a 3 year old memory.

Cmccul8146,

When I say "just past vertical", I am talking about an amount of movement so minute that one would probably not notice it without some precision measurement devices...mere thousandths of an inch! That's all it would take to "break over center" and keep the roller locked, but not so much that it wouldn't unlock. However, it's perfectly OK if we disagree...that's what makes America GREAT!!! :biggrin:

 

[Dozer Man]

Adjustible Stop

Cmccul8146,

When I say "just past vertical", I am talking about an amount of movement so minute that one would probably not notice it without some precision measurement devices...mere thousandths of an inch! That's all it would take to "break over center" and keep the roller locked, but not so much that it wouldn't unlock. However, it's perfectly OK if we disagree...that's what makes America GREAT!!! :biggrin:

The key word I keep hearing is "Adjustible Stop". You might be agreeing to disagree but I'm pretty sure you are both on the very same page. To me, the reason SS, DR, and you too Claude, put and adjustible stop on the engagement mechinism is to keep it within a specific tolerance. Not to mention, as parts wear over time and use, this tolerance will need to be checked and adjusted. After rereading what Jester3775 had done to his machine, I am confident that all of us can get our engagement mechinism set into the proper tolerance to keep the cam engaged properly. I'm actually excited to dig into it when I can get the time. But what about 100 cord down the road?? Will it need adjusted to keep into tolerance?? And I will say it again...this machine needs a smaller clutch drive pulley!

 

[Jester3775]

Thought

The key word I keep hearing is "Adjustible Stop". You might be agreeing to disagree but I'm pretty sure you are both on the very same page. To me, the reason SS, DR, and you too Claude, put and adjustible stop on the engagement mechinism is to keep it within a specific tolerance. Not to mention, as parts wear over time and use, this tolerance will need to be checked and adjusted. After rereading what Jester3775 had done to his machine, I am confident that all of us can get our engagement mechinism set into the proper tolerance to keep the cam engaged properly. I'm actually excited to dig into it when I can get the time. But what about 100 cord down the road?? Will it need adjusted to keep into tolerance?? And I will say it again...this machine needs a smaller clutch drive pulley!

Dozer,
I think you are right on with the idea of adjustable stop. My method definitely worked but the thought of having to adjust with a hammer every now and again does sound crazy. I wonder how the other brands have that set up.......... philwillmt is I believe right on with his last post talking about being only slightly over center. I found from experience that I could be over center quite a bit and still work I believe as it should as far as disengagement at end of stroke. The ramped end of "ram" allowed enough clearance for this to work. However this also made it hard to disengage by hand when the unit did get stopped (as we believe it should) mid-stroke because I was "overcenter" too far. This required another slight adjustment with hammer, but then I had it ! Tearing down far enough to adjust with my tie rod fork and hammer was a pain though.
Thought on smaller pulley though. If we in essence slow down the flywheels we are actually (IMHO) storing less energy there. I think that maybe that is not the right way to go, even though it would allow us to run engine at higher speed and gain power there. My thinking wants the flywheels and engine at top speed (for max power) however I would like the gearing to change, which would allow slower and safer "ram" speeds but provide maximum power (from engine and stored energy in flywheels) And we could always throttle down even more if we are in easy stuff. My 2 cents anyway.

 

[Dozer Man]

Thought on smaller pulley though. If we in essence slow down the flywheels we are actually (IMHO) storing less energy there. I think that maybe that is not the right way to go, even though it would allow us to run engine at higher speed and gain power there. My thinking wants the flywheels and engine at top speed (for max power) however I would like the gearing to change, which would allow slower and safer "ram" speeds but provide maximum power (from engine and stored energy in flywheels) And we could always throttle down even more if we are in easy stuff. My 2 cents anyway.

The number I keep thinking is 1.75" for a drive pulley. The way I figured it, that would make 300rpm at the flywheels with around 3000 engine rpm. That still gives the option to speed it up or slow it down from there. I still need to figure ram speeds for the competition, for comparison, before I make a definate decision on the pulley size. I just got some new info on the SS gearing but haven't had time to put the numbers to it yet. But I think we will all be surprised at the SS ram speed. I think its slower than what I initially thought. I hope to work on it later tonight and show my figures soon.

:hmm3grin2orange:Isn't it great to learn something new everyday!!!:hmm3grin2orange::help:

 

[Dozer Man]

And I also would like to ask all SuperSplit and DR Rapidfire owners.....
Does your engagement handle ever "kick-out of gear" when it can't split a round (for whatever reason)??? Or does it "stall the ram" until you disengage the engagement handle manually???

Just renewing this portion of a thread to get it out there for comparison reasons....thanks guys!!!

 

[nysparkie]

DR Engagement handle

Just renewing this portion of a thread to get it out there for comparison reasons....thanks guys!!!

Dozer: It has done both on my machine. The handle kick back the first time it happened scared poop right out of me. I though the whole kabash had come apart or something. I figured I had not engaged the rack hard enough and when it hit a knot it just forced the handle up out of my hand violently. I now make sure with each engagement I keep a fair amount of pressure on the handle. When that is done and the splitting ram is stopped by knots, whatever, then the clutch takes over and everything just sounds like it powers down. The engine is still running but is under "Strain". I disengage the ram by pulling up on the engagement handle and if the ram retracts, good and I hit the stump again. If it jams a second time, I disengage again and try turning the stump to hit it somewhere else even doing a 180' turn. A few times when the ram is on the power stroke it will jam a knot on the splitting wedge and it I can't get the ram to retract by hand engagement handle. I have to turn the machine off and hit the stump with another stump or a small sledge to free it off the wedge, then start up and go again. Those are fewer and fewer as I learn to look at a stump and see the best way to attack it. It is all auto now and takes only a glance. I've done over 30 cords and had 20 cord more of logs delivered. Any Kinetic Splitter, now that I have and understand them, is soooooooo much better than hydraulics. Instead of weeks it takes days. Instead of Days - Hours. Instead of Hours.....you can time it in minutes.
Bless ya Buddy. I'm reading but only jumpin in to answer. I still pray for the best outcome for ya.