New to this site, and professional tree work

[clearance]

I never said guys who climb all day doing removals are lazy and I never said that guys who prune without hooks sit in a truck all day.....seems like you answered the question you WISHED I asked not the question/comment that was presented.

I never said you were lazy in terms of working. I am saying you are lazy in your learning, for climbing with spikes and not wanting to learn any other way.

Ill just call you a hack from now on!

What are you going to have me banned for? I didn't bring allegations out about you with doubtful origins, did I? This is all stuff that YOU PROUDLY present to the people on this forum. You know it is wrong yet you still brag about it. You are a disgrace to this industry as well as BC Hydro.

I remember you posting a while back that we should call BC Hydro and complain about you......whats the name and number of the rep for BC Hydro that you report to? Actually whats his name and what town/city is the office in that he works out of? I will gladly call the office and be connected to him or someone higher and make my feeling VERY well known......is this offer still on the table?

BB, what the hell is wrong with you? I am not going to have you banned, I would never think about it, read what I say before you spew. Now, about B.C. Hydro, I never once said anyone should complain to them about me, they like me, I produce. What I said was "why is B.C. Hydro in the ISA" seeing as how ALL the utility guys that climb for them use spurs, ALL the time. All the Hydro vegatation managers are ISA certified, they see guys climb with spurs all the time, I figure that B.C. Hydro just uses the ISA name so people will think they are competent. I would love to see them leave the ISA, or the ISA kick them out for breaking the "rules". The hypocrisy makes me puke. Numbers for them, in a box somewhere. But it should be very easy to contact them on the 'net, they have a big website. When I posted the numbers before, Tom Dunlap and others cam up with reasons why they couldn't call. I figure it was because Hydro and the ISA are connected, they didn't want to rock the boat. I will not give you the number of the guy I report to, he asked me not to give it out to propblem customers. But I am sure you could go way over his head at B.C. Hydro. Hey, I looked in boxes, here you go, Grant Baxter, Manager, Vegetation Maintenence 604 543 1550, go cry to him, good luck.

 

[BostonBull]

BB, what the hell is wrong with you? I am not going to have you banned, I would never think about it, read what I say before you spew. Now, about B.C. Hydro, I never once said anyone should complain to them about me, they like me, I produce. What I said was "why is B.C. Hydro in the ISA" seeing as how ALL the utility guys that climb for them use spurs, ALL the time. All the Hydro vegatation managers are ISA certified, they see guys climb with spurs all the time, I figure that B.C. Hydro just uses the ISA name so people will think they are competent. I would love to see them leave the ISA, or the ISA kick them out for breaking the "rules". The hypocrisy makes me puke. Numbers for them, in a box somewhere. But it should be very easy to contact them on the 'net, they have a big website. When I posted the numbers before, Tom Dunlap and others cam up with reasons why they couldn't call. I figure it was because Hydro and the ISA are connected, they didn't want to rock the boat. I will not give you the number of the guy I report to, he asked me not to give it out to propblem customers. But I am sure you could go way over his head at B.C. Hydro. Hey, I looked in boxes, here you go, Grant Baxter, Manager, Vegetation Maintenence 604 543 1550, go cry to him, good luck.

Maybe I am coming off as crying....but for good reason.

Its not fair to us who follow the rules/regs. set before us, take pride in our work and try to educate everyone we speak to about proper tree care, to have a person like you represent us and give advice.

Ill call it a truce but try in the future to refrain from giving advice to people, especially green beans, about climing/tree work that you KNOW isnt the proper way to go about doing things.....deal?

 

[clearance]

Maybe I am coming off as crying....but for good reason.

Its not fair to us who follow the rules/regs. set before us, take pride in our work and try to educate everyone we speak to about proper tree care, to have a person like you represent us and give advice.

Ill call it a truce but try in the future to refrain from giving advice to people, especially green beans, about climing/tree work that you KNOW isnt the proper way to go about doing things.....deal?

If you will call that guy up, like no one else here has and ask him about us climbing with spurs, while they are ISA members, sure. I do climb with spurs, but I do make proper cuts, not flush cuts, no stubs. I do advise people to have me windfirm trees instead of topping them, I only agree in topping for a good view or a powerline. So, I am not a total hack.

 

[BostonBull]

If you will call that guy up, like no one else here has and ask him about us climbing with spurs, while they are ISA members, sure. I do climb with spurs, but I do make proper cuts, not flush cuts, no stubs. I do advise people to have me windfirm trees instead of topping them, I only agree in topping for a good view or a powerline. So, I am not a total hack.

I will call him tomorrow..........just be sure this is what you want becaus if need be I will dierect him to this site for proof of his guys breaking ISA rules.

If you do not want me to call for fear of reprecussions, I will honor your request.

 

[clearance]

I will call him tomorrow..........just be sure this is what you want becaus if need be I will dierect him to this site for proof of his guys breaking ISA rules.

If you do not want me to call for fear of reprecussions, I will honor your request.

Call him up, let the chips fall where they may. It really bothers me when BS like this goes on, if you are an ISA member then do as they ISA says. If you are a cop, uphold the law. If you are a Christian, do as the Bible tells you. If the guy has a problem with me, get him to join this site and send me a pm. An explanation, B.C. Hydro does not do treework themselves, they sub it out to contractors who they supervise in every way possible. And he does know, they all know, I have never heard of any one them questioning it. If they tried that spurless crap on me I would walk, along with lots of guys, including guys from Asplundh and Davey, I'm sure.

 

[RedlineIt]

Jomoco,

I've spurred up some fat Dougs. No sense flipping up, just spur up in a spiral, keeping it snug, advance what you can as you go. Stubs an whatnot you get as you spiral the stem. You really can't fall anywhere untill you get to the point where you CAN flip your lanyard. Sounds slow, but if we are standing at the bottom ten foot deep in salal, slash or prize-winning rhodos, unless you ace that shot, I'll beat you to the top more often than not.

Clearance,

Pal, you have to get over it. Ropes are not gay and besides, body thrusting is a very limited use technique. I was on a job at an elementary school taking storm damage out of some firs, had an entire fourth-grade class lined up on the soccer pitch touch line watching. I pitched a throw ball in the tree to set a second TIP and heard one kid say, "Look, He climbs like Spiderman!"
That's cool enough for me.

GottaCut,

Sorry it got derailed, but these things happen.

You did not mention whether it was Gleditsia or Robinia. Both get called Locust in various parts of the country. They react differently. I would take a look at how it is responding, take ownership of the cuts you have already made and try to train what is left in a way that suits A) the homeowner, because he started it, and has his own needs, B) The tree and it's desire to have a central lead, and C) Your own desire to revisit what you've created and the lesser desire to profit and learn from your previous work.

Get this done, and you are well on your way to being a true tree care professional.


RedlineIt

 

[BostonBull]

I spoke with grant today. He hasn't had anything to do with BC Hydro or the vegetation management program in 1.5 years! he is retired!

I was forwarded to Brian Fisher. I spoke to him at length about the issue and he says that once in a while a ROW guy will sneak up with hooks on. He also agrees that climbing big old growth trees is easier without spikes as you basically need two guys to help flip each others lines up the backside of the tree. He says that he has investigated this issue, and CLEARANCE specifically, numerous times over the last two years. He said each time he gets the phone calls he goes out to all the subs and asks around and NOONE has the balls to own up to being CLEARANCE. He thinks CLEARANCE is a angry little man who was turned down or fired from BC Hydro and since BC Hydro is such a big co. they are an easy target.
Brian also tells me that spikes aren't even allowed on the trucks who do backyard/residential type utility climbing even on REMOVALS!!! He said only advanced climbing methods are acceptable where the public may see/come in contact with the trimmers.

SO............Clearance whats the next step? Wanna tell us your real name and we'll really get the ball rolling on you being a hack trimmer?

Brian Fisher told me to let everyone know he would be more than happy to answer any questions on BC Hydros practices while trimming on his office line @ 1-250-755-4722

 

[DonnyO]

ladies, ladies, ladies............

You guys are too much.

I think that mr. clearance forgets that this is called ARBORIST SITE!!!!!

I must also say that I have always doubted clearance as a legit profile on this board but I do enjoy his posts.opcorn:

 

[moss]

Thanks for all the replies, hey what about the problem with the locusts I mentioned?

Any chance you can post photos of the overall tree to show what's going on and also close-ups of bark and leaves so we can ID? Black and Honey Locust are completely different in structure and habit so the advice can't be generic I don't think. I know that Honey Locust does not handle hard pruning well, I've seen what happens, a hard topping to a major limb on a mature tree can cause dieback of the limb right back to the main trunk over a couple of years period, and the epicormics (water sprouts) can be a symptom of an ongoing dieback process. Honey Locust seems to cut off circulation to limbs pretty quickly if the leaves don't produce (and they can't if they're not there). I don't know Black Locust as well for what happens in hard pruning.

What would Arborist site do without Clearance to stand up for spur climbing? It's a dirty job but someone has to do it
-moss

 

[RedlineIt]

Man, I wish this was not happening in Gottacut's thread...

Clearance is legit, no question, he posted in the employment forum for a job windfirming in B.C. I PM'd him, his contact knew of him, valued him, (no, I'm not revealing names) but just as the contract was coming up, I was scheduled for some long awaited corrective surgery and I decided to stay in town and hit my long-time current employer with my rehab tab.

Also, I think clearance is out of ROW for Hydro. I could be wrong, but that's what I've picked up on my limited time I can spend here.

And finally, Boston Bull, this Brian Fisher is either clueless or FOS and an excellent BS'er. The crews that do back-yard work aren't allowed to even have spurs on the truck? ROFL, bumping the lamp off the coffee table and scaring the dog.

I can show Brian Fisher NUMEROUS back-yard trees his crews have done with spurs. It's one reason I have never doubted what Clearance has to say about B.C. Hydro ROW work.

A specific example springs to mind. I was called to do a house clearance prune on a pretty little purple Beech. Didn't even bother to get the throw bag out, first branch at 4 feet and excellent radial spacing all the way up, the type of tree I would not have been able to resist climbing when I was nine-years-old. Easy peasy climb.

But what's this! Spur marks!? Who would spur this tree? Who would HAVE to spur this tree!!? I look up again and there they are, High tension lines running 30' above this far from mature Beech. Ah, the B.C. Hydro guys, if it's not a tree, it can't be spurred.

When I sprinted up to set my TIP, I looked at the reduction cuts. Preventative, minimalistic and totally ISA and Shigo aprovable. CODITing rather nicely, shame about the spur holes.

When I was done with the house clearance pruning, I talked to the homeowner about the future of the Beech, (we also had some contorted hazel pruning and some Doug fir deadwood to do, good client,) I recommended that we be contacted to pre-empt Hydro and their persistant use of spurs.

---------------

One last and post-final thing, If Brian Fisher thinks he can blow enough smoke to have you believe that he is out there asking crews who clearance is, please remember that British Columbia is half again the size of Texas and none of this territory is flat or without trees! His chances of running into Clearance, (if he does indeed still contract for B.C. Hydro) are so diminishingly small that his phone should run a laugh track.

SOMEONES Blowing smoke, I prefer to believe it's Fisher.



RedlineIt

 

[BostonBull]

If this is all true then we should ALL call Brian Fisher and tell him hes a liar, nd get BC Hydro to change their ways. Thye have 300+!! Trimmers working for them.........

 

[senechal]

For the sake of professionalism, some basic protocol is needed to *promote the profession* rather than a series of worst-case scenarios and personal attacks intended to fear-monger anyone leaning in the direction of arboriculture into thinking otherwise.

Yes, an arborist is an excellent career choice.
Yes arborists do take themselves very seriously and you should respect the amount of experience out there, recognizing that it is a running faucet of valuable information that could prevent a life-threatening accident on your worksite.
Yes, you should look into full time education as well as any number of references both video and literature, and of course you should seek an apprenticeship with a company in your area that is committed to excellence and adheres to ISA standards.

 

[RedlineIt]

BB:

What should I tell Fisher he's lieing about, the spurring thing or that he's out there hunting down that aberrant bastid clearance?

Both are equally laughable, you got took good.


RedlineIt.

 

[clearance]

First of all Redline, thank you very much for your support (not of my climbing ways of course), but of me being legit. B.B., I have never talked to Brian Fisher, but I will. So we will see, as I have said here, many times, all utility guys who climb for B.C. Hydro climb with spurs, always. So, either what you say is true, a fabrication, or Mr. Fisher is being extremely economical with the truth. And the truth, as Winston Churchill was fond of saying, is barely out of bed by the time a lie has made it around the world. On further reflection, B.B., if Mr. Fisher has been searching for me, why didn't he join this site and p.m. me? Or, find me by using clues to who I am in the many posts I have left here. Jim Rockford he's not, if what you say is true.

 

[jomoco]

The art of negotiation is compromise

First of all Redline, thank you very much for your support (not of my climbing ways of course), but of me being legit. B.B., I have never talked to Brian Fisher, but I will. So we will see, as I have said here, many times, all utility guys who climb for B.C. Hydro climb with spurs, always. So, either what you say is true, a fabrication, or Mr. Fisher is being extremely economical with the truth. And the truth, as Winston Churchill was fond of saying, is barely out of bed by the time a lie has made it around the world. On further reflection, B.B., if Mr. Fisher has been searching for me, why didn't he join this site and p.m. me? Or, find me by using clues to who I am in the many posts I have left here. Jim Rockford he's not, if what you say is true.

It seems like a compromise is called for here in that there is some degree of practical truth in what Clearance's work practices are for his location. The different varieties of conifers he works are capable of withstanding the gaff damage inflicted on them because of their extremely thick bark. And line clearance companies like any other company want to make money in a competitive market, and that means high production rates.

Another aspect of this is safety, and even here in SoCal if a company owner feels his climbers are incapable of climbing big eucs without gaffs, he faces a moral dilemna by insisting they abide by ANSI or ISA standards when doing so may result in injury and the resulting comp claims.

I myself, like many others have spent alot of money time and effort learning how to prune any and all trees properly to standard or better, and like many others take great pride in my work practices.

But the line between professional pride and practical safety and profits often get blurred for many reasons. And while I stubbornly insist on doing it right or not at all, I've noticed that the number of clients willing to pay for top notch proper pruning is slowly shrinking as the number of cheap labor hack companies grow. This is the primary reason I chose to become a hazard takedown specialist, but you'd be surprised at how many cheap labor amateurs with more balls than brains get killed here in SoCal trying to muscle into this most dangerous specialty, lots of dead or mangled amateurs here in the last few years.

The main point I'm trying to make is that professional tree services are basicly under an assault from cheap labor throughout the whole country, it is more important than ever that proper professional standards are emphasized and upheld. And for those that have to fudge these professional standards for whatever reasons, for gods sake keep quiet about it, then strive to improve through reading, training, physical conditioning or whatever it takes to get up to snuff and still make it safely home at the end of the day with some bacon for the family.

This can be an extremely rewarding profession, let's try and keep it that way.

Work safe,

jomoco

 

[clearance]

I haven't called this guy yet, but I will. Now, to be more clear, everthing gets climbed with spurs, not just the conifers, alders, maples, birches, cottonwoods as well. This topic has been on my mind, I will not let it go. Stay tuned.

 

[clearance]

I spoke with grant today. He hasn't had anything to do with BC Hydro or the vegetation management program in 1.5 years! he is retired!

I was forwarded to Brian Fisher. I spoke to him at length about the issue and he says that once in a while a ROW guy will sneak up with hooks on. He also agrees that climbing big old growth trees is easier without spikes as you basically need two guys to help flip each others lines up the backside of the tree. He says that he has investigated this issue, and CLEARANCE specifically, numerous times over the last two years. He said each time he gets the phone calls he goes out to all the subs and asks around and NOONE has the balls to own up to being CLEARANCE. He thinks CLEARANCE is a angry little man who was turned down or fired from BC Hydro and since BC Hydro is such a big co. they are an easy target.
Brian also tells me that spikes aren't even allowed on the trucks who do backyard/residential type utility climbing even on REMOVALS!!! He said only advanced climbing methods are acceptable where the public may see/come in contact with the trimmers.

SO............Clearance whats the next step? Wanna tell us your real name and we'll really get the ball rolling on you being a hack trimmer?

Brian Fisher told me to let everyone know he would be more than happy to answer any questions on BC Hydros practices while trimming on his office line @ 1-250-755-4722

Alright Boston Bull, and everyone else, here we go. I finally spoke to Brian Fisher on the phone, yesterday, July 10, after e-mailing him with my information so he would know exactly who I was. As I told him, and will now tell you, and anyone else who doubts my word, my name is Jim Barber, my certificate of qualification (Province of British Columbia, Industry Training Authority) in the trade of utility arborist is numbered 00107-TT-04, my power system safety protection authorization ( British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority) number is 9007340. After your post quoted here I was stunned that man of Mr. Fishers stature in the utility vegetation world would tell someone such B.S., I had a friend call him up with the number you supplied and she spoke to him. He told her pretty much what he told you, and also said I posted when I was drunk, that he had searched in B.C. Hydro for me as "Clarence" and that he couldn't even sue me because he didin't know who I was. He sent me an e-mail asking where I was working and who I work for. I called him yesterday and was to the point and blunt with him. I first asked him about this spurless climbing b.s., I told him I had never climbed spurless, never seen it done, and never heard of a c.u.a. (certified utility arborist) doing it for B.C. Hydro. He replied that in some backyards in Victoria (Provincial capital, on Vancouver Island) trees are spurless climbed. A pretty weak and lame answer, even if it is true, some backyards in one city in a huge province? I asked him if he knew about Arboristsite and if he had talked to an American fellow from that site, he said he had but denied insulting me. He played dumb, but he tone of his voice, which had changed from being deep and confident at the very beginning of our conversation to a higher pitch and faster delivery told me he was lying, I believe you as to what he said to you B.B.. He said that "we encourage proper arboricultural practices, such as spurless climbing thin barked trees" Really, never heard of it. He was angry with me, he was caught lying and called on it, obviously not used to being spoken to like that at all. He kept using the phrase "we use proper practices doing treework at B.C. Hydro", I took issue with that as well and told him to quit saying "we", he doesn't climb, isn't a c.u.a., just a powerfull manager at B.C. Hydro who can probably make things difficult for me. He also told me that he had been in contact with Tom Dunlap, which I find amusing, since Tom didn't share that with us here, but rather said it wasn't up to him to police the I.S.A. or to call people across different time zones, meaning B.C. Hydro. All the while appraising Brian Fisher of me, no doubt. Near the end of our conversation, he told me I was trashing B.C. Hydro (not true at all), and I asked him, basically "so what are you going do about it, take away my p.s.s.p.?" That would end my employment, as you need a valid p.s.s.p. number to work on Hydro's system. He said "No, I'm not, but you'd like that wouldn't you?" Pretty clear he knew I had him by the short hairs and if anyone was going to be sued it would be him and B.C. Hydro. So, again, I climb with spurs to trim, all the c.u.a.s I have ever known climb with spurs at all times for B.C. Hydro. This is a pretty pathetic situation, a man lying to people, the public and fellow I.S.A. arborsits, and badmouthing a guy who does his best to keep the power on for the people in this province. So, you know who I am, perhaps you could call up Asplundh B.C. in Aldergrove and ask someone there about this spurless crap if you still doubt me. I know this isn't the end, I expect some sleazy, underhanded retatliation, my cards are on the table, bring it on.

 

[clearance]

Well? There you go, anything else to ask of me or say?

 

[treeseer]

It seems like a compromise is called for here in that there is some degree of practical truth in what Clearance's work practices are for his location. ...he faces a moral dilemna by insisting they abide by ANSI or ISA standards ...I myself, like many others have spent alot of money time and effort learning how to prune any and all trees properly to standard

What's crazy in this debate is that everyone talks about ANSI standards, which ISA and TCIA and other orgs have reps working on, but no one reads them! :hmm3grin2orange:

My friend clearance climbs with spurs following ANSI standard 5.2.2, "Climbing spurs shall not be used...Exceptions...when the bark is thick enough to prevent damage to the cambium; (or) in remote or rural rights of way"

If his company is condoning spurs on thin-barked trees in the city, and claiming they are ANSI-compliant, then they have some splainin to do, and clearance is right to out them and ge it into the open. If clearance advocates spur usage in the suburbs of San Diego :taped:, then he's as far outside his expertise as jomoco telling him that using spurs in the bush is wrong.:taped:

 

[clearance]

What's crazy in this debate is that everyone talks about ANSI standards, which ISA and TCIA and other orgs have reps working on, but no one reads them! :hmm3grin2orange:

My friend clearance climbs with spurs following ANSI standard 5.2.2, "Climbing spurs shall not be used...Exceptions...when the bark is thick enough to prevent damage to the cambium; (or) in remote or rural rights of way"

If his company is condoning spurs on thin-barked trees in the city, and claiming they are ANSI-compliant, then they have some splainin to do, and clearance is right to out them and ge it into the open. If clearance advocates spur usage in the suburbs of San Diego :taped:, then he's as far outside his expertise as jomoco telling him that using spurs in the bush is wrong.:taped:

ANSI does not apply in British Columbia, and this issue has gone beyond the "spurs are bad" debate. Fact is, again for you and others, all the people who work for B.C. Hydro as supervisors of the utility treework done for them by private contractors are ISA certified. It is them, the ISA certified supervisors who work for B.C. Hydro who condone the use of spurs, by watching it being done and never saying anything about it (no doubt because it is safe and productive and they have no problem with it). I was called a hack, among other things, I was disbelieved and one of the head people at B.C. Hydro lied about this fact to people, Boston Bull and my friend, for starters. I identified myself and had it out with him about this. Needless to say I will never get a job with B.C. Hydro, and will not be suprised if there are consequences for me. Brian Fisher told me I can climb how I want, good enough for me. I will never climb spurless around powerlines, no one else I know will, contractors will opppose it, it ain't gonna happen, and I will do what I can to make sure that this "spurless around powerlines crap" stays the hell out of utility work in this province.