Nice little knot

[Tom Dunlap]

re onrope; im not disputing their data, just some of their conclusions. ie "girth hitching as a general rule is unacceptable as a rigging technique" p.65 fig 4-17. and page 115 they state about a figure 8 "unfortunately, this level of control is acheived entirely with the friction against the rappellers hip and the squeezing of the brake hand."

its a good book that i have learned much from reading, but statements like those above are misleading or incorrect, so i take everything from that book with a grain of salt.

After reading all of what you refer to I come to a different conclusion. There are much better rigging systems available that don't comprimise the strength like girth hitching. Minimizing strength loss is the issue. In the text that accompanies the girth hitch they do mention some uses. Arbos aren't as trained in how to account for all of the forces and loads in the systems. With a better understanding of dynamic loads it's pretty clear that there is room for improvement.

Figure eights are one of the poorer choices for descending. A Munter hitch develops more friction in most of the usual configurations. Can't get any simpler than using just a biner for descent. The rope hockling isn't any worse using a Munter or an eight in my experience. Neither of them have much friction and need to be monitored closely.

OUtside of the arbo world proper rappel procedure is taught where the brake hand is kept just behind the hip as a backup. Arbos don't seem to have brought this bit of procedure over from the rest of the vertical rope world.

The setup in 5-34 is a nice, compact and inexpensive rappel setup. It's a mystery to me why racks aren't as popular considering the tradeoffs using figure eight type devices. The only reason that I can see is that racks have a very low "Cool Factor". How can they compete against really cool looking anodized shapes like the Piranha and Cardiac Arrestor? Are the P and CA rated for arbo ropes?

 

[darkstar]

tom i thin racks are just to bulky etc.... here in tennessee they are very popular however with the spelunkers .... we have many deep pits ... im a fan of the munter hitch as well it is excellant for belaying .... i think it would be really interesting to see how the knots we are talkking about compare on different ropes .... i bet some are stronger depending on what type of rope is being used .....would be really hard to factor all that in allthough

 

[Tree Machine]

Racks ARE bulky. They involve a number of steps to apply. Every step needs to be repeated in reverse for the thing to come off. Even the conventional soft lock is two steps.

Treeguys could use one step ON, one step Off. One step soft lock, one alternate single step hard lock. You can not ask that of a rack.

Cavers don't care. Security and absolute precision control are paramount. Time on and off rope is not. I vote for security and absolute precision in one step. If we can put a vehicle on MARS, I'm quite certain we can overcome our ONE-STEP technological hurdle.

You think a double fishermans is easier to untie than an anchor hitch?

I don't think of them from the standpoint of untyability(?) because I rarely untie anything. If it involves tying, or untying in any repetitive manner whatsoevery, I'll opt to put an eye and a biner, make it instantaneous. Knots, as much as I love em, are not instantaneous; nor can you do knots one-handed, left or right. Knots, in my world (and I understand I live in my own little world ), are not a dynamic exchange of doing and undoing. Knots get put on to stay. Biners and eyed terminations do all the rigging and connecting.




(but that's just me)

 

[Tree Machine]

Take a loop, tie a cow on one end, a bull on the other, and pull. Which breaks first is the loser.

This is brilliant. This is absolutely brilliant. I second this motion.

There are much better rigging systems available that don't comprimise the strength like girth hitching. Minimizing strength loss is the issue. In the text that accompanies the girth hitch they do mention some uses. Arbos aren't as trained in how to account for all of the forces and loads in the systems. With a better understanding of dynamic loads it's pretty clear that there is room for improvement.

Tom, you're talking about a different animal. You're approaching this thing as a bull dog, when really, it's a kitten.

The slings we're tying here, the ones being discussed in this thread are not heavy, dynamic forces types of slings. These are kittens, man. We put our body weights on them, and we do light rigging with them. For heavy lifting, for under $20 bucks, you get a rated sling meant for heavy work. These slings of which we speak, and the Beers and the Bulls and the Cows, <i> they're kittens</i>.

 

[Tree Machine]

I'm all for testing the dual biner'd Cow / Bull hybrid Beer in the middle sling on COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE 1" tube webbing. We need to test on the stuff the guys are using commonly, and that's from the webbing you get at the sporting goods or rock shop.

Let's at least start with that as a baseline.

Get a factory sewn one. That'll take the variable of the Beer Knot out of the forumula.

I'd like to think the Beer is right in there swingin and being tested with the Cows and the Bulls.

 

[Tree Machine]

Wouldn't this be a fun video to bring to TCIA?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Kittens it is, in this thread

There are times when generalities work. When talking about rigging and climbing I don't like using generalities without adding all of the footnotes and qualifiers. My preference is to slice and dice to get all of the info on the table.

 

[Tree Machine]

Let's add all the footnotes and qualifiers, but let's keep it all real life-setting. I'd like to know the Cow / Bull tensile on spectra and tenex, but as a general rule, if a guy ties his own sling, he's using webbing he gets from mail order of at a sport shop. 1" is the stuff that guys use most, and what a Beer knot works really well in. 1/2" (1.25 cm) doen not work well with a Beer knot, nor does Spectra or Tenex. This defines our 'kitten', what is most used in the field.

For starters, does anyone know the tensile of commercially available 1" tube webbing?

(ps it's amazing that in a thread about the bull hitch, that 5 pages later, we're still talking about a bull hitch)

 

[Tree Machine]

For the guys who find this thread terribly interesting, but have no clue what a Beer knot is, I'm going to tie a couple up this afternoon. I'll set up the video camera and we'll see what the Beer knot looks like. I don't mind because, like DarkStar says, it such a very cool knot. Long ago I tried using a chopstick to perform the knot, and it works really, really well, so I'll be showing the chopstick method of the Beer knot.

Hopefully tonight. The slings will be either black or purple.

 

[CoreyTMorine]

Gypo field test 001 - 004

Today I worked for my good friend “Hurricane Al”. He is called Hurricane because after Al is done with a job it looks like a firkin’ hurricane went through. Al is a logger from the old school, he mostly cuts timber, but when he gets up around a house or something he calls me. This man has single handedly destroyed more of my cordage than everyone else combined. Any way, we break about 10 am, and I says to Big Al “Hey, you feel like breakin’ some rope? I gutta knot I wanna check out, should take about 15 minutes.” He says “Yeah I can break some rope.” I chuckle coldly to myself, thinking, yes, I know. Lol.

So, he backs the Timber Jack up to a big rock a few feet in front of a big tree, and pays out 5 or 6 feet of cable. I secure a 5/8” shackle to the tree, tie a Bull hitch to the shackle, and tie an anchor hitch to the grab link on the cable. The grab link diameter is just a hair smaller than the shackle diameter. Oh yeah, the rope is a 20’ piece of ½” yale XTC from last years climbing line.

“Go ahead (to Al), get away from that thing (to the apes).” The two ground guys are right up on the rope waiting to see what is going to happen. Al starts taking in cable, 2 or 3 feet per second. The rope comes taut, stiffens, goes elastic for about 8”, and lets go. It broke in the anchor hitch, just where the first turn hits the grab link.

“Gimme some slack.” I leave the Bull hitch in place and tie a cow hitch to the grab link. “Take it up.” Same thing, the cow hitch breaks. It did not slip, and I kind of expected it to. I believe the section of rope I used to tie the cow was compromised by the previous test. So “Gimme some slack.”

I grab the other half of the climbing line and tie a bull hitch to the grab link and a cow hitch to the shackle. “Take it up.” The line comes tight, and the cow hitch starts to slide. “Woe, slack.” I loosen the cow and try to pull the section of rope involved in sliding through the knot all the way through. Retie the cow, and put a grapevine about 8” up from the cow hitch.

“Take it up.” The line comes taut, and the cow hitch appears to slide, ????it. “Woe.” Al slacks off and I go over to check things out. Oh, the Cow didn’t slide, it broke, but the line was held taut by the grapevine.

“I’m not making any money doin this!” that from Al, signaling an end to my Gypo field test.

Conclusions: well this was a pretty halfassed, no control having, rough test, so any conclusions drawn here are preliminary and subject to change. That being said I think mr. Bull is stronger than the cow hitch. There are more wraps and bends in the line (is this a pretty good indicator that a knot will test out weaker than a knot with fewer turns? I haven’t seen any lab test results on knots.) However the bends are not as sharp as in a cow or an anchor hitch, and constricting forces seem more evenly spread throughout the Bull hitch.

Also the Bull did not appear to slip or creep. I’m going to wait and see the results of some more tests, but I think this is going to be a great knot with which to secure my split tail.

 

[Tree Machine]

Tug test

You rock, Blue Spruce. That is shoot from the hip, field test trials.You've added raw data. Add in a measuring device and we would call that science.

I gotta go back and read your Gypo test again.

 

[Tree Machine]

Dude, what are you using for a split tail, what diameter?

 

[CoreyTMorine]

slice and dice and on the table.

Kittens it is, in this thread

There are times when generalities work. When talking about rigging and climbing I don't like using generalities without adding all of the footnotes and qualifiers. My preference is to slice and dice to get all of the info on the table.

Amen to that.

 

[darkstar]

killer some one with pc skills and a vid are going to show case the beer knot ..... how did he think that one up HATS OFF...... MR. BEER

 

[CoreyTMorine]

split tail stuff

Dude, what are you using for a split tail, what diameter?

1/2" yale XTC (white)ussually, although i think they were out last time i purchased so i bought 1/2" new england rope hi-vee (white). i still have 12' of that left to use. I use 1/2" XTC red for my climbing line.

the hi-vee seems to wear out quicker, but has overall better / more regular performance than the XTC.

 

[Tree Machine]

Onto what hardware are you tying the split tail; Maillon Rapide, caribiner, safety snap, D-ring?

I got the footage of the Beer Knot today on video. The chopstick did it's thing and another couple of perfect Beers went down. I have to say, it was an excellent Beer day, I think you'll see.

I needs to clean it up and edit, and then I'm gonna try to find some CSN for background music.

While I'm editing video, who of the noobs can tell me the difference between a knot and a hitch?

 

[CoreyTMorine]

petzl am'd ball lock biner. the split tail on the left "loop" of a master saddle, the climbing line terminates on the right "loop", small eye attatched to another am'd biner.

i have to get a batry for my camera. let me see if i can find a pic?

a knot is something in hair wheras a hitch is in a ring.

 

[sharpstikman]

hello yall, I bealive the 1'' tube webbing is 4,000 breaking strength I need some pictures of this bull ,cow hitch.I can maybe try this at work tommorrow.I dont have any arbo ropes yet in shop, but can use new england sta set yacht braid1/2, 6,000 breaking strength.we also have spectra,vectran,and dyneema in 12strand just to name a few

 

[Tree Machine]

Cool ! If we say the safe working load is 400 pounds on that 4,000 lb webbing, then let the tests begin.

I'm still into the video editing. Be patient.

 

[darkstar]

im patient ... are you still gonna post up the beer knot on vid ??????