Oak Tree Questions with Pics

[fishercat]

i think he meant................

I don't think this guy knows me and I don't have any tree workers living right next door to me. I think he means he lives in my area. I don't mind if he spreads tree seeds in my yard, my sheep will eat them faster than they can grow. They love maple, oak, cherry, and sweetgum leaves especially.

you remind him of his neighbor.

 

[bergertree]

To scott #1. I am very concerned that you are out there estimating tree work and you know nothing about cables. Is this a hobby for you, or this this your livelyhood? Did you have a mentor who is experienced? Have you worked for or with a licenced tree expert? This homeowner has contacted you to get your expert opinion on a potentially dangerous and even life threatening tree. He may base his decision entirely on the information you give. I think you need to ask yourself, am I qualified to make this diagnosis? I have seen too many so called tree experts give out tons of misinformation.
I do not think that this customer would look poorly on you if told him that you would like to consult some other treemen before giving an opinion on his tree. He may even find it refreshing that you are willing to be honest with him. No treeman knows everything, but dont guess. Be confident enough in yourself to tell a potential customer that you dont know, but will damn sure find out. Please do not take this post negatively. It is not my intention to embarrass you. But your lack of knowledge about cables, or telling the customer that because the tree has leaves it is OK, causes me great concern. I dont think your intentions are poor, but how would you feel if that tree splits tommorow and crushes the bedroom of some little kid. There is a lot of treework anybody can do. But some situations require a true expert with a lot of knowledge and experience. You should not feel embarrassed to seek out these people in your area and absorb some of their knowledge. The more you do this, the better treeman you become. Some day others may be seeking you out. Sorry if this long-winded post sounds like preaching. I'm down off my soap box. good luck scott.

 

[treeslayer]

When it doubt, take it out.

Now that you, a tree proffessional, have looked at it, you better take it out.

otherwise.....................when it does fail, more than likely a catostrophic failure too with all that cabling, a lawyer will be looking for your a$$.

seriously, near a house with that crack, gotta take it out.

IMHO.

 

[STLfirewood]

To scott #1. I am very concerned that you are out there estimating tree work and you know nothing about cables. Is this a hobby for you, or this this your livelyhood? Did you have a mentor who is experienced? Have you worked for or with a licenced tree expert? This homeowner has contacted you to get your expert opinion on a potentially dangerous and even life threatening tree. He may base his decision entirely on the information you give. I think you need to ask yourself, am I qualified to make this diagnosis? I have seen too many so called tree experts give out tons of misinformation.
I do not think that this customer would look poorly on you if told him that you would like to consult some other treemen before giving an opinion on his tree. He may even find it refreshing that you are willing to be honest with him. No treeman knows everything, but dont guess. Be confident enough in yourself to tell a potential customer that you dont know, but will damn sure find out. Please do not take this post negatively. It is not my intention to embarrass you. But your lack of knowledge about cables, or telling the customer that because the tree has leaves it is OK, causes me great concern. I dont think your intentions are poor, but how would you feel if that tree splits tommorow and crushes the bedroom of some little kid. There is a lot of treework anybody can do. But some situations require a true expert with a lot of knowledge and experience. You should not feel embarrassed to seek out these people in your area and absorb some of their knowledge. The more you do this, the better treeman you become. Some day others may be seeking you out. Sorry if this long-winded post sounds like preaching. I'm down off my soap box. good luck scott.

Thanks for your post I'm sure you said a lot of things other people are thinking. I understand your concern and I'm not offened by your post at all. I'll answer your questions.


This is not my hobby and yes it is part of my lively hood. I do carry insurance also in case your wondering.

I wouldn't really call them mentors but I hire experienced climber for my climbing work. I don't climb and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it. They re not licensed arborists but they have been climbing and doing tree work for years. I let them make the calls when we do removals. I always tell them take your time and be same over getting it done quicker (even though I am paying them by the hour).

I did tell him it was over my head and that I would take pictures and ask for other opinions. There are a lot of people on this site that I would consider experts that is why I asked here. He has had 3 other companies look at the tree and they have all been telling him something different.

I don't think the tree is OK just because leafs out. The tree only has one or 2 dead limbs in it. If it wasn't for the crack you would thing this tree was in great health.

The main reason I am on this site is to read and learn so I can do tree work the right way. I don't want to be know as a hack. I don't top trees just for a pay check. I have walked away from a lot of work because they were hack jobs. I'm far from a pro and I always tell people when something is over my head. That is the main reason I do mainly removals. As long as the tree comes down safe and the clean up is good it's hard to mess up a removal gone is gone.

Thanks for your input.

Scott

 

[treeslayer]

I'm far from a pro and I always tell people when something is over my head.
Scott

but that is a proffessional attitude, and HOW you conduct business is just as important as actually doing the work.



and don't worry, everybody from Maryland is mean.

 

[treevet]

I agree. Great attitude but maybe this decision is out of your league. If you just do take downs you still have to know your stuff to be able to decide to leave it or take it down.

 

[bergertree]

scott #1, I am glad you recieved my information without offense. It sounds like you are well along the way of learning more about your chosen trade. Good luck.

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

The simple physics of it is obvious, that cable is not enough to hold that tree together,

The big question is wither that crack has appeared since the cabling was installed. Im thinking it has stretched in a storm and done its job preventing the tree from falling, but its hanging by its last thread now and very dangerous.

previous to the Cracking there was a lot of wood holding that together and with the Crack there is very little chance of recovery in strength, that cambium even if it would grow back together will never hold the tree on its own again or get better.

It also lets pathogens and rot in further deteriorating the strength.
those cables and harware will eventually deteriorate as well and when they snap everything will go to hell, I would Chain and bind it securely when removing it as the shifting forces of the removal could cause failure.

I am a tree lover and if it was mine I would still be looking at removing it, because with the crack even Rods will fail.

hey but if they really want to try and save it Rod it and fill the Crack with Gorilla glue or Expanding polyurethane injected as deep as you can get, before you tighten the rod and add a new set of cables.


the best they can hope for is another 20 years and the risk is great, I would sadley have to say its better to remove the tree.

 

[Behemoth Jim]

:agree2::agree2:

 

[treeseer]

Good posts by berger and vet. slayer runs scared from lawyers, his choice, bad as it may be--never fear being in a lawsuit, that can happen no matter what. You can sleep well as long as work is standard.

Speaking of which, the below shows how dangerous a littel knowledge can be.

The simple physics of it is obvious, ....with the crack even Rods will fail.

What is the holding strength of a 3/4" brace rod? How many are called for in a 30" trunk? No idea? Then wtf are you talking about when you say rods will fail? Ever seen that happen?

I didn't think so. So save the manure shoveling for the barn.

SLT, if you want the support BMP I'll send it for member price $8., free shipping. just pm me yoir address. Then you and your clients won't have to rely on nonsense from the internet.

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

Good posts by berger and vet. slayer runs scared from lawyers, his choice, bad as it may be--never fear being in a lawsuit, that can happen no matter what. You can sleep well as long as work is standard.

Speaking of which, the below shows how dangerous a littel knowledge can be.



What is the holding strength of a 3/4" brace rod? How many are called for in a 30" trunk? No idea? Then wtf are you talking about when you say rods will fail? Ever seen that happen?

I didn't think so. So save the manure shoveling for the barn.

SLT, if you want the support BMP I'll send it for member price $8., free shipping. just pm me yoir address. Then you and your clients won't have to rely on nonsense from the internet.

Maybe I should break that down for you, I don't expect the Rods to break, but to pull thru when the Half LOG twist and shatters
The main thing is the Biggest portion of wood has already lost its integrity and separated.

A full round that has been reinforced with Rods BEFORE it split May have been a good solution with 6-8 rods as TT said.

however with a half a log I expect different forces will come to play.

that 6-9 foot crack has effectively removed half of the vertical tension strength.

and it is far more likely to twist as it moves causing sheer forces that may split the pair of boles into quarters direction.

Cables and Rods should be used as Prevention not Primary structural repair.

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

its not the stength of the rod Im concerned about its what will hold the rod.

this tree has already fractured

 

[lego1970]

My personal opinion is that it's ok to cable as a preventative measure to prevent a potential split on a mature tree or to cable a split tree if the tree is out in the open away from property, but I would never recommend a cable on a already splitting tree and I would never cable a tree that if failure did occur severe property damage could occur. I like trees, enjoy backpacking, understand their benefits to the enviroment and homeowner, but you can always grow another one, you just may not be around by the time it gets big. To help the enviroment you can send the wood to a Amish or Urban saw mill operation so the carbon will stay trapped in furniture, while there are no leaves on the tree the chips are much more user friendly, firewood will release carbon but save other uses of energy, and the roots will still hold soil while slowly decomposing. I understand that removing a tree can reduce the curb appeal and lower the value of a home, but so does disclosing the fact that the house has had major structual damage. That's just my thinking.

 

[tree MDS]

My personal opinion is that it's ok to cable as a preventative measure to prevent a potential split on a mature tree or to cable a split tree if the tree is out in the open away from property, but I would never recommend a cable on a already splitting tree and I would never cable a tree that if failure did occur severe property damage could occur. I like trees, enjoy backpacking, understand their benefits to the enviroment and homeowner, but you can always grow another one, you just may not be around by the time it gets big. To help the enviroment you can send the wood to a Amish or Urban saw mill operation so the carbon will stay trapped in furniture, while there are no leaves on the tree the chips are much more user friendly, firewood will release carbon but save other uses of energy, and the roots will still hold soil while slowly decomposing. I understand that removing a tree can reduce the curb appeal and lower the value of a home, but so does disclosing the fact that the house has had major structual damage. That's just my thinking.

Lol! Hang around here long enough and you'll want to save em all too, its the way of the arborist it seems. Its just lately starting to happen to me.

This lady was showing me these lovely multi leadered invasive norway maples with rot holes in the trunks yesterday, and I agreed that they must indeed provide a lovely canopy of shade for her when leafed out, and that we should definitely talk about pruning and cabling them in the near future (i.e., when its not freezing cold). Besides the access sorta sucked.

 

[tomtrees58]

My personal opinion is that it's ok to cable as a preventative measure to prevent a potential split on a mature tree or to cable a split tree if the tree is out in the open away from property, but I would never recommend a cable on a already splitting tree and I would never cable a tree that if failure did occur severe property damage could occur. I like trees, enjoy backpacking, understand their benefits to the enviroment and homeowner, but you can always grow another one, you just may not be around by the time it gets big. To help the enviroment you can send the wood to a Amish or Urban saw mill operation so the carbon will stay trapped in furniture, while there are no leaves on the tree the chips are much more user friendly, firewood will release carbon but save other uses of energy, and the roots will still hold soil while slowly decomposing. I understand that removing a tree can reduce the curb appeal and lower the value of a home, but so does disclosing the fact that the house has had major structual damage. That's just my thinking.

your nuts

tom trees

 

[treeseer]

Maybe I should break that down for you, I don't expect the Rods to break, but to pull thru when the Half LOG twist and shatters

It won't shatter because it won't twist, if it is braced correctly. All this and more covered in p 18-23 in the BMP.

Cables and Rods should be used as Prevention not Primary structural repair.

:monkey:

Please break that one down for me; So now you are saying that only trees that MIGHT crack should be supported, and not trees with cracks? How do you choose which trees to drill through and install hardware, and how do you sell this service on uncracked trees?

Pruning is usually the most reasonable preventive treatment.

Support systems can be a very reasonable repair, at any location.

pic 1 is a 90' x 90' white oak 4' from an historic home. it was crown reduced 3 years ago; crack has not grown; will install support if/when it does.

pic 2 cedar is between house and driveway, got 1 rod 1 cable.

I keep hearing stuff about location--let's face it, targets are a given in most urban trees, or why would we be paid to care for them? If you have no confidence in your work then I understand recommending removal but the work is not hard to do right and reliably.

 

[treevet]

its not the stength of the rod Im concerned about its what will hold the rod.

this tree has already fractured

The rods go perpendicular to the fracture/split. They WILL hold this trunk together if correctly placed. The remaining issue is invasion of decay within the split that can be monitored. We have put trees together that both halves were completely laying on the ground. As long as the vascular system is not interrupted by folding it is all good.

 

[tree MDS]

Good posts by berger and vet. slayer runs scared from lawyers, his choice, bad as it may be--never fear being in a lawsuit, that can happen no matter what. You can sleep well as long as work is standard.

Speaking of which, the below shows how dangerous a littel knowledge can be.



What is the holding strength of a 3/4" brace rod? How many are called for in a 30" trunk? No idea? Then wtf are you talking about when you say rods will fail? Ever seen that happen?

I didn't think so. So save the manure shoveling for the barn.

SLT, if you want the support BMP I'll send it for member price $8., free shipping. just pm me yoir address. Then you and your clients won't have to rely on nonsense from the internet.

Hey...wait a minute, sherrill sells the BMP guides for $7, you really are a true arborist aint ya seer?? "member price", lol.

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

Maybe I should break that down for you, I don't expect the Rods to break, but to pull thru when the Half LOG twist and shatters
The main thing is the Biggest portion of wood has already lost its integrity and separated.

A full round that has been reinforced with Rods BEFORE it split May have been a good solution with 6-8 rods as TT said.

however with a half a log I expect different forces will come to play.

that 6-9 foot crack has effectively removed half of the vertical tension strength.

and it is far more likely to twist as it moves causing sheer forces that may split the pair of boles into quarters direction.

Cables and Rods should be used as Prevention not Primary structural repair.

I hope I can explain My "BS" conjecture with an illustration. A system is only as strong as the weakest component.
The larger half of the tree has a tapered crack, no matter how minute the spread it will allow sheer movement of the two halves independent of the other,
once the Crack happened it no longer became a problem of supporting one half against the other. when one side flexes the Rod will resist but it will do so in a concentrated area creating a splitting force along the rays of the wood.

Im not saying the failure can not be prevented, Im just saying there is much more than the original flaw to consider, one or more pins placed on the same plane could create more danger by Longitudinal alignment of braces. the Rods should be offset so that one is not directly above the other.

A large split or weak crotch requires two or more rods to hold the two sections together and minimize twisting. For large split crotches, at least one bracing rod should be inserted Above the crotch separated by a vertical distance equal to or greater than the diameter of the tree at the rod. and more In it being sure to Avoid the same plane.

Upon reconsidering I am thinking the cables may not have loosened but were over tightened and this tree has been damaged by the cabling, in that the forces pulling the crotch together have created outward forces below the fulcrum of the crotch. perpetuating the Crack rather than closing it.

The Rod Brace above the Crotch Creates a fulcrum that redirects the force inward.
Refer to Structural Features Related to Tree Crotch Strength http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-05122003-124617/unrestricted/Farrellthesis0610.pdf


Tree Care Industry Association
https://secure.tcia.org/store/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductCode=BMPCAB
Best Management Practices - Tree Support Systems: Cabling
Member Price: $6.00
Nonmember Price: $8.00
The Western Chapter of the International Society of Arboriculture, (WCISA)
http://www.wcisa.net/docs/Publication.pdf
CTW
CA P1312 Best Management Practices – Tree Support Systems $5.00 $7.00

 

[treevet]

Upon reconsidering I am thinking the cables may not have loosened but were over tightened and this tree has been damaged by the cabling, in that the forces pulling the crotch together have created outward forces below the fulcrum of the crotch. perpetuating the Crack rather than closing it.

my point in an earlier post