OK.....Let's Get Into The Meat Of SRT !!!!

[Tree Machine]

I would think that swaping on and off the ascender would get old, but that is just me. I couldn't see swaping over to the ascention system ever time you needed to go up 5 foot.

It would get old if you did it repetitively. The oak I did today required 6 yo-yo's. If I had to add up the time it took to swap and unswap between ascent and descent, I would estimate it to be around two minutes. That hardly bumps my day.

As far as going up 5 feet, I'd probably do like Butch would do; grab the rope and pull myself up the 5 feet.

As far as a descent device, jeez, use whatever suits you. There are a lot of devices out there. They all do the same thing: allow you to modulate friction on a rope while you're attached to it. That goes for DbRT, DdRT, SRT, WSRT. Check here for some of the many. http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml -TM-

 

[Lumberjack]

Here is how I ascend, pretty simple.


Carl

 

[MasterBlaster]

I do the same thing, but with NO metal involved.

Purty picture, though!

 

[Lumberjack]

Here is how I work. More metal, but it is great.

 

[Lumberjack]

Here is how I get the benifits of both DbRT and SRT, using the stuff already on the saddle. After the I'd is on it takes probably 10-15 seconds to RADS it.

Carl

 

[Stumper]

I'm finding all of this interesting. Like Butch I'm less than thrilled with all the metal though. It may seem silly but I have a hard time trusting the ascenders and descenders. I like the pantin for an assist and various ascenders can be useful as well but I want my DbRT and hitch to support me. I know in my head that the gear works but Ive learned to trust quality cordage and the knots I've tied myself-there aren't any parts to jam or fall out.

 

[Lumberjack]

As I can tell, it isn't hard to get the benifits of both systems with a minimal fuss, and minimal gear. If you wanted to you could have the whole thing made out of rope, but that wouldn't be cool.

If you notice, the RADS can be as long as the rope will allow. You could keep it close when you wanted to, or let it get long by keeping it at the top of a section of the tree that was being trimmed.

I think that it opens alot of different options with the same setup.

Carl

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Stumper
I'm finding all of this interesting. Like Butch I'm less than thrilled with all the metal though. It may seem silly but I have a hard time trusting the ascenders and descenders. I like the pantin for an assist and various ascenders can be useful as well but I want my DbRT and hitch to support me. I know in my head that the gear works but Ive learned to trust quality cordage and the knots I've tied myself-there aren't any parts to jam or fall out.

Like I said right after you posted, you could have the whole setup made out of rope and 2 biners.


You could use a split tail to tie into the SRT rope. Ascend and work off of it, and use another split tail with a biner in the end to make the RADS. That would be one way, another is you could put a saftey friction hitch above the i'D or below the ascender, and have a saftey, but that wouldn't make you fell better prob.


Carl

 

[Tree Machine]

I'm finding this interesting, too. Carl, thanks for the clear pics. Everyone appreciates that.

I like the look of the RAD system you've shown. A truth I must point out is that it is a 2:1 mechanical advantage setup. Great if you're hoisting heavy materials up, but in the SRT sense, you have to pull two feet of rope for every foot you go up.

This is not a bad thing, don't get me wrong. You work half as hard, but twice the motion. If I do a deep footlock and grab 24", I go up 24". To me, that's an advantage. -TM-

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Carl's been clearing things up while I've been packing. It seems like all the points are being covered.

The only time I use the RADS is to work the cro, er, canopy. I've posted my ascent system and it is similar to what Carl posted. Once at the TIP the I'd comes out.

Something that is still confusing me though. If a climber is using a friction device for descending, whether its a Munter, eight or I'd, they can't ascend the tail of the rope. If you footlock the tail, you lock off the device eliminating ascent. Now, if you were using a friction hitch with a slack tender, you could FL back up. You're right back to a SRT or DdRT access climb. That seems to have advantages too. In certain circumstances I could see using this setup. Overall though, I like the way that the I'd works.

Tom

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Tree Machine
I'm finding this interesting, too. Carl, thanks for the clear pics. Everyone appreciates that.

I like the look of the RAD system you've shown. A truth I must point out is that it is a 2:1 mechanical advantage setup. Great if you're hoisting heavy materials up, but in the SRT sense, you have to pull two feet of rope for every foot you go up.

This is not a bad thing, don't get me wrong. You work half as hard, but twice the motion. If I do a deep footlock and grab 24", I go up 24". To me, that's an advantage. -TM-

I like that too, but it combines the advantages of SRT and DbRT. As Brian said "I like my 2:1" and this gives it to you, when you want it

I wish that you could buy a device like the I'd that you could ascend, decend, and work off of while being able to FL or Pantin under it, to advance. That would be prime, IMO. be as smooth as an ascender or V.T., be as easy as an 8, and as easy to work off of as the i'D.

Carl

 

[Tree Machine]

The ultimate device ?????

So it sounds like what we need is a cross between a Grigri (or I'D), and a Gibb's ascender. Something that allows the rope to pass through direct and straight, and when the curved cam becomes decommissioned (using a handle), a flat pressure (friction) plate would concomitantly engage. No weight on it would be the sweetspot of zero friction, for a footlocked ascent, or limbwalk. Letting go of the handle, cam fully engages and you stop

A Gibb's ascender that allows controlled descent; a truly one-device-does-it-all. The reason this can't be acheived on the Grigri or I'd is that these devices don't allow the rope to pass straight through; the ropes curves within the device, totally screwing it up for a footlock ascent.

Ascenders and rope grabs, on the other hand, DO allow the rope to pass straight through, but the camming under load is complete and non-adjustable.

I find it hard to believe this ascend / abseil device does not currently exist. Maybe it does. I'd like to see it -TM-

 

[Lumberjack]

Re: The ultimate device ?????

Originally posted by Tree Machine
So it sounds like what we need is a cross between a Grigri (or I'D), and a Gibb's ascender. Something that allows the rope to p??? through direct and straight, and when the curved cam becomes decommissioned (using a handle), a flat pressure (friction) plate would concomitantly engage. No weight on it would be the sweetspot of zero friction, for a footlocked ascent, or limbwalk. Letting go of the handle, cam fully engages and you stop

A Gibb's ascender that allows controlled descent; a truly one-device-does-it-all. The reason this can't be acheived on the Grigri or I'd is that these devices don't allow the rope to p??? straight through; the ropes curves within the device, totally screwing it up for a footlock ascent.

Ascenders and rope grabs, on the other hand, DO allow the rope to p??? straight through, but the camming under load is complete and non-adjustable.

I find it hard to believe this ascend / abseil device does not currently exist. Maybe it does. I'd like to see it -TM-

I bet you could make the i'D work. If you removed the anti mess up cam at the bottom, and left the round piece, you could footlock under it. It would have a little slope, as it would have to invert, but it might be worth it. It would keep the cam from engaging, and straighten the path out on the rope. One big draw back is that you would loose the saftey for threading it backwards.

Whatda think Tom?

Anybody else notice the poor angle the cam engages the rope? It only grabs with a few teeth and relies more on the teeth digging into the cover of the rope, instead of clamping the rope as most ascenders do. I might even question if it would work as intended, or if it would just pick out a few strands of the rope, and fail.


Carl

Carl

 

[rahtreelimbs]

Other than less wear on the rope and tree and the obvious ease of rescue..........what are the benefits of SRT? Almosts seems like more money spent to gain very little!

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Rich Hoffman
Other than less wear on the rope and tree and the obvious ease of rescue..........what are the benefits of SRT? Almosts seems like more money spent to gain very little!

Never having used DbRT, my answers are limited

Ascending the rope is super fast

No need to isolate a limb, (I heard that can be a big problem in some trees) just shoot it over the top, and up you go.

Safter in regards to tail of the rope being drug into the chipper. You can tie it off to the base of the tree.

Setup like mine can yeild benifits of both SRT and DbRT.

Easy to retrieve line. (For those that use a FC, no need to retrieve it)

Easy redirects without the rope rubbing or jaming in tight crotches (gotta hate those)

I can probably think of a few more.


If you think about it, the cost of SRT and DbRT are probably close to the same. SRT has a higher initial cost, but with DbRT you have to replace tress cords, replace ropes from added abrasion. I have been using the same blue streak for 4 months now and it still looks new (or close to it).

I bet the cost are pretty close, here is my SRT gear that I use normally:

CMi closed shell ascender $50 (I think)
Petzel i'D $160
Pantin $55 (optional)

The total is 265. It will take a long while for these items to wear out, and there performance is consistant. Plus you gotta add the saved wear on the ropes. Therefore I think that they are about equal.

Carl

 

[Tree Machine]

You like the pictures?

Here's a set of images of how I start out SRT. -TM-

 

[Lumberjack]

That kong has a few miles on it doesn't it.

I perfer a steel biner at the bottom to offset any side loads on biner, or I tie it off.

Benifit: To me (being fresh) SRT is simpler than isolating a limb, or getting the perfect knot and tress cord.

What other benifits can you think of TM?


Carl

 

[Tree Machine]

More SRT pics

Here's a couple more. I had a helper today and got some tree shots. I bought some tress cords from Nick last month and I'm experimenting with them here. -TM-

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Lumberjack
Never having used DbRT, my answers are limited

There ya go...

Isolating a limb is about as hard as tieing yur shoes, 99% of the time.

 

[rahtreelimbs]

Isolating the right limb has never been a real big problem. Granted, even with the bigshot you may not get thatchoice limb. But you can get close enough that a few moves will get you where you want to be. SRT surely has it's share of problems isolating the line as does DbRT. Personnally I still don't know how I feel about the non-working side of the rope against the main lead.