Opinions Please - Cut This Tree ??

[Fireaxman]

Thanks folks, lots of good stuff to think about here.

Removal would be free (another freind and I would do it) and should be pretty simple, Murphy notwithstanding. We would anchor it away from the house with a grip hoist to move the COG out a little, get a good pull on it with the tractor in the desired direction of fall, and then with a careful cut it should be on the ground in an hour or so. Plenty of clear space.

My freind (retired arborist) and I (slow, careful climber) would also do any pruning for free, and we are willing to cable. Thinning the canopy to reduce the fan effect is an attractive idea to me, especially getting the laterals directly over the roof below the codominant stem off. Those laterals could easily spear through the bedroom roof if the tree took the wrong fall, and they are also a nuisance for dumping a thick carpet of pine needles on the roof.

If I leave it a little un-balanced, heavy on the side away from the house, maybe I could get the "Odds" to an acceptable level. It could fall anywhere in 240 degrees and cause little or no damage. It's the 120 degrees where the house (especially bedroom) is that we need to protect. It's a nice tree, I'ld like to save it.

Treespyder - I like your idea of throwing a line through the codominant crotch as part of hurricane prep. Easy to do. I could even leave a piece of parachute cord in the crotch so they could pull a rope through when they need to. What does that do to the dynamics in the canopy? Would the loss of flexibility in the base have any adverse affect in the canopy or on the codominant closest to the house? That plus cabling the crotch would make me feel pretty good.

The homeowners are very fond of the tree, it provides a nice shade over the front porch and (yes) bedroom. Since they cool in the summer with a window unit in the bedroom that is a significant benefit. They never would have thought of removing it before Katrina, but now --- well, they asked my advice.

The codominant stem has a pretty smooth U crotch and I can't see any included bark. I'll clean the ground off under the tree and get a better look at the ground connection.

 

[Kate Butler]

"I just recently lost the co-dom tops out of a 38" dbh black locust to a freak wet/snowstorm and windstorm. They came down on my house (10' away) ...These pieces snapped about 30' above the ground and could have killed the occupants of 2 bedrooms. Fear?? You betcha."

Kate, why didn't you have the trees pruned before Did you even have the crowns inspected??
What these two tales have in common are trees near houses that posed a risk but that risk was not managed by an arborist. Fear ruled, and value was lost. Now both of you are counseling this other tree owner to act on the basis of fear. You may be authorities on that, but cheaper more rational options that you are less familiar with need to be considered; thinning, reducing, cabling etc.

Could it be that the last 2 codoms were the surviving sprouts from a previous break, and you are setting the tree up for the same kind of failure down the road if the tree is not pruned every few years? I'm sorry it cost you so much--6 bills to clean up cuts on two trees? Sounds like more than a proper pre-storm pruning would have cost. I just charged $480 to trim 5 storm-damaged trees; VT is pricey, eh?

Also, you have the poorest insurance policy I ever heard of. I'm sorry for your loss, but I wouldn't wish a needless expensive removal on a stranger. I play the odds too, but the game is not rigged; my clients don't have fear thrown into their hearts so they opt for tree care.

I'd have to agree with you about the insurance - and it wasn't cheap insurance, either. The removals were expensive because the other involved 3 sets of utility lines. Gratefully, that branch (a tri-dom, also original to the tree)) merely separated and did not totally fail. Seeing air for 2" through it, (though the trunks) made me consider all the people dependent on the untilities the branch grew into. The tree is now far more symmetrical and the only risk to the lines is if the entire tree fails.

The co-doms were original growth. The tree had been inspected 2 years ago (and a minor reduction on one horizontal branch. Re-read the part about the FREAK storm.. Lots of wind, wet snow and (the kicker) the trees still had their leaves on. Nothing could have saved this tree. Even had it been cabled, there would have been nothing left but BIG STICKS.

 

[fmueller]

Trying to attach a pic. Here is why I cut the Cherry although this is a completely different tree. The Cherry was about 90 ft tall with branches at just the top 10 or 15 ft or so. The rest of it was just a long straight stem. ( Nice sawlog!) So to prune it would basically be to just top it (Blasphemy) and see what sprouts out of the top. Maybe I can fine a pic to send . Well the one I want to send won't upload for some reason, but here is a pic of it afterward!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Original tree question:i think a lot of people we see, especially after our series of hurricanes last year might want it out. But i always try to look at all sides. i think if it has a healthy root crown showing and lower CG by crown reduction while fortifying codom is best shot at success.

i still think that if a tree came down on the opposite side of the house/ same axis to house as tree in question, any windloading increase that effected the tree in question; would have the effect of blowing the tree away from the target house.

Temporary support option by leaving (mostly men-tall exercise here) throwline/parachute cord in tree tied to self/circle. Person installs line hitched low on trunk, and tied 180 from house (same axis) for easy retreiveablilty after storm; replacing throwline as they remove line. Show how to use comealong or zrig etc. on front side of pull, and sweat line on back side of pull. This is how i keep a damaged tree safer until we can get there the next day and/or reinforce against lean for safer climbing/rigging. If no definitive lean, use 1 rope to give it lean, then rope another to fight that lean by pulling in opposite direction.

Or something like that...
:taped:

 

[treeseer]

if it has a healthy root crown showing and lower CG by crown reduction while fortifying codom is best shot at success.

I think that is definitely the best management of the valued aset. Fireax, while you want to take off/reduce some of the lower branches that have a "spear" potential, remember COG centerofgravity and leave all lower growth that you can.

KC your Support Strategy is amazing, but 2 concerns;

1. Friction wounding by rope on fork.

2. How tight do you want to keep it? Is this a dynamic or a static guy?

Kate and fm, ir sounds like you're considering a lot of important factors and I'm not here to criticize anyway. Some trees have no good pruning options, some storms do freak damage. But most trees have management options that, if carefully applied, can retain and grow their assets.

This pine surely looks like a keeper, if the men and women involved are tall enough to use their men-tall gifts on it.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i usually use this for stabilizing a removal day of or previously until day of. Here i offer it as potential/ extreme temporary/emergency peace of mind brace to homeowner.

As far as wounding, might be less than 1+ cut(s)?? Being short term for potential hyperloading would forego temporarily concerns about static versus dynamic support and responding growth. In trying to achieve dynamic support though, the considerations would include loading, line construction, tensile and line tension etc.

Next tension increase would be to bend front line with another line; next level would be to tighten that line and anchor, then bend it, to in turn bend mainline (in front of tree). i call this a "T" bar, givng compound tightening; where the leveraged tension of 1 line feeds into being the input of leveraging a 2nd line. Or hang weight on line coming to ground anchor (front leg of line). This could also give dynamic adjustmeant if proper relationships were met. ie. loosen line s-lightly(?), and then hanging weight (returning tension). Then if tree loads, towards house; it would have to straighten the line with weight on it; rains line tension a lot more than linear strategy of pull alone. Only part time high tension could be achieved by weight sitting on a stump to rleieve line tension, but line would have to lift weight off stump to tighten line, giving leveraged tension i think to line.

Orrrr something like that!

 

[pbtree]

Insurance might be nice, but then again the tree is probably making the guy nervous, which insurance will not address completely...

If he is your bud, cut him a deal on the labor, and ask him to take the savings and put it down on a homeowners policy...

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Fireaxman]

TreeSpyder, I think you've given me exactly what I needed. Thanks! I'm going to thin to a COG neutral or just slightly away from the house and get my freind to invest in a hundred feet of 1/2" 3-strand to secure to another big pine butt away from the house for hurricane prep only.

Treeseer, thanks for the input. The 1/2" should not wound because it will only be used for storm prep (not permanently installed) and it will not be tensioned except by hand (I think what TreeSpyder calls "Zrig" is the same as what I call "Hay Hitch"; bowline mid line, running end around support tree then back through bowline to form 2 part line, hand tension by a couple of guys) . My reasoning is that I will not have to correct for COG with it, but that it will only gain serious tension in the event of a storm bad enough to bend the tree toward the house. If the line gets enough tension to wound the tree, it did it's job. I'll use the 3 strand not only because it is cheaper but also because the extra stretch might gives us a "Shock Absorber" affect. I also considered putting an automobile tire inner tube in the system for a shock absorber, but that's probably getting too complicated, and of course I would have no idea what kind of load that would support.

Got very good input from everybody, and I really appreciate it. Just can't do the insurance thing because it is not a one time expense, but a regular monthly bill, and we expect it will be even higher when the insurance companies start trying to get back some of what Katrina and Rita cost them. Worst case my freinds move in with me until they can get a FEMA trailer. And, don't spend a hurricane in the bedroom under the tree.

That lightning strike possibility someone mentioned was a big eye opener, something we had overlooked. Lightning strike probabilities are up because this pine is the tallest remaining tree in the area, and also because of the metal roof. We are going to run a ground rod on the corner of the house under the tree to provide a "Safe Path" for a strike. High tension electric line is readily available for a free ground rod. coils of it are laying around under every main power line hit by a tree.

If the temporary support system wounds the tree seriously enough that I have to remove it after a storm, so be it. Meantime, we probably get a few more summers of shade and pleasure from the tree, well worth a half day's work.

For those who advised removal, you have done a great job presenting that side of the argument, and your arguments are very valid. Thanks, your input has not been ignored, but has been carefully considered. The "client's" wife is a tree lover, and so am I, and we were a bit prejudiced toward keeping the tree. TreeSpyder just gave us some good ideas for what we could do to alleviate our concerns.

Again, thanks everybody. I will continue to monitor this thread in case anyone comes up with something we have not considered.

 

[treeseer]

Well done, Fireax. It's really cool to see Spyder's mechanical genius put to practical use. Re lightning, it may be out of their budget right now, but recent changes in standards have made tree protection systems more affordable.

For a tree like that it used to be about $600 but now I would guess maybe $350 to put a system in a tree that size. (Anyone else got a guess?)
Standards and Best Management Practices cost $18. thru ISA. A supplier I saw at tci expo is www.ipclp.com. They'll send you a kit of info n/c if you ask them. Installation of these systems is an easy way for a tree service to deliver value to their clients and profit for themselves.

 

[Gopher]

Managing the right resource...

People, that is what we manage, not trees. We know about trees, care about trees, and like to be paid for doing our thing to trees and for trees.

BUT, would we be doing any of this in the middle of a large expanse of forest? NO WAY! We do the work and make the recommendations for the PEOPLE.

The tree is probably fine; of course, looking at the changes in the canopies around it is the major concern whether some work needs to be done on it, but that isn't what should be done.

When a tree starts to be an issue with the homeowner or the concern reaches a certain level, then we do what is right for the person, not the tree.

My 2c worth.

 

[fmueller]

By the way, here's a pic of what I was talking about. Big Black Cherry hanging over the house. I sleep easier now whenever the wind blows.

 

[Kate Butler]

to cut or not?

By the way, here's a pic of what I was talking about. Big Black Cherry hanging over the house. I sleep easier now whenever the wind blows.

NO KIDDING!!. I would, too!

 

[treeseer]

NO KIDDING!!. I would, too!

me too, over canopy, no way to reduce, no question.

Isn't it wonderful that we agree?

 

[pbtree]

People, that is what we manage, not trees. We know about trees, care about trees, and like to be paid for doing our thing to trees and for trees.

BUT, would we be doing any of this in the middle of a large expanse of forest? NO WAY! We do the work and make the recommendations for the PEOPLE.

The tree is probably fine; of course, looking at the changes in the canopies around it is the major concern whether some work needs to be done on it, but that isn't what should be done.

When a tree starts to be an issue with the homeowner or the concern reaches a certain level, then we do what is right for the person, not the tree.

My 2c worth.

Amen brother!

 

[treeseer]

"When a tree starts to be an issue with the homeowner or the concern reaches a certain level, then we do what is right for the person, not the tree."

Dave, I respect your utility experience, but I see this more as a balancing act than an either-or proposition. Only when there are no tree care options left are we forced to set the tree's needs aside. My job as I see it is to get familiar with delivering a wide range of arboricultural services so the owner and the tree have a realistic chance of having both their needs met.

For instance, whatever happened to that cracked bur oak near the fence line?

 

[Gopher]

Not a lable to appreciate...

Yes, I have a contract to a utility company, but that isn't a lable I care to hang my hat on...

Anyway, Treeseer, the bur oak is still standing there beautifully. The people, as I suspected, are thinking of selling the 40 acres and barns, etc. I had that feeling talking to him after explaining options with the tree. So, I am sure the tree will take nature's course.

I also realize it is our job (and duty) to look at every option. Yes, there are many people that are overtly cautious, and even a 25 foot tall siberian elm 100 feet from the house is a little risky, but when we've exhausted our box of tools and still the issue with the client hasn't reversed, then...

I learn from you all every day. While winter weather keeps me in more than I like (today below zero again - no wait, it's up to 2!!!), it does offer me the chance to listen to other professionals share thoughts and expereinces that can only make me better.

Thanks again.

 

[fmueller]

me too, over canopy, no way to reduce, no question.

Isn't it wonderful that we agree?

Aww geez, it is onederful. About a year ago I would be getting reamed on this site about now. But now everyone has mellowed. It is wonderful.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

If'n ya want more power; 2 hand the Zrig..... or inset another one and 2 hand it!

Concept covered in Force Relationships; More Power to Ya and Ship's Rig.

Orrrrrrrr something like that
:taped:

 

[clearance]

pine

Saw it down

 

[Kate Butler]

cut this tree?

If'n ya want more power; 2 hand the Zrig..... or inset another one and 2 hand it!

Concept covered in Force Relationships; More Power to Ya and Ship's Rig.

Orrrrrrrr something like that
:taped:

Thanks for the info - I used it to excellent advantage getting a rolled and folded, 200 lb. Oriental rug up a steep flight of stairs (by myself) yesterday. It would have been much more difficult without your help.