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How many of you who are complaining about OSHA have read what they are trying to accomplish in developing rules for our industry. Because we have refused to establish and enforce operating standards in our industry, and because deaths in our industry are on the rise, we have caught the eye of the Federal Government. If we would restrict tree care operations to qualified, State licensed, or credentialed companies, we probably would not be here. As of right now, ANYONE can be a tree service. They need to know nothing! And what do they do, they go out and hurt themselves, create damage, ruin trees, etc.. We need to as an industry either support OSHA in working with our industry to develop safety regulations that will be to our benefit, or start policing and enforcing some rules as an industry. I support strict licensing and competency testing for all tree care companies. This will help solve the problems we are now facing.

In the last three years I have called for two OSHA inspections for our company. Yes, you heard right, I call OSHA. Both inspections cost me a couple of thousand buck to rectify their demands. Did I really want to do it…no, but I did because I want a safe work place for our employees, and we want to set a standard of doing thing right. I’m tired of sleaze-ball tree guys that won’t wear their PPE, and follow common sense rules.

Our company also goes through DOT audits to insure vehicles and paperwork is in order. I’m proud to say that we were the 31st company in the nation to accomplish the TCIA accreditation. We are now going through the re-certification process. We also have a Certified Treecare Safety Professional on staff, yours truly.

We do not have much of an OSHA presence where I operate. We have never had an inspector visit a jobsite unannounced. If I see companies blatantly breaking OSHA rules, I have no problem dropping the dime. If we do not start policing ourselves, we will have the government do it for us as we are now seeing.

The Government has plenty of reason to be concerned. We should be concerned also. Below is from the website, and this is why we have caught their attention. They are only asking for input which is not unreasonable in this circumstance.


The hazards present in tree care operations have resulted in a
significant number of serious accidents. For example, looking at fatal
accidents in the tree services and ornamental shrubs industry sector
(SIC 0783), just one of the industry sectors that perform tree care
operations, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that between
1992 and 2002 \1\ there were 637 fatalities.\2\ That averages to 58
fatalities per year. The vast majority (75.6 percent) of those
fatalities were falls, being struck by falling objects, and
electrocutions, which are types of accidents most closely associated
with tree trimming and removal operations. Falls and being struck by
falling objects accounted for about one-third (32 percent) and one-
quarter (26 percent) of the deaths, respectively. Contact with electric
current resulted in 17.6 percent of the fatalities and transportation
incidents also were significant causes of fatalities during that
period.

According to BLS data, the annual number of fatalities in SIC 0783
increased between 1992 and 2002. In 2002, for instance, there were 70
fatalities, almost double the 36 reported in 1992. Moreover, during the
last 3 years of the period, there were 70 or more fatalities each year.
From 1992 to 2002, there was a significant increase in the number of
fatalities in SIC 0783 resulting from being struck by falling objects
and transportation incidents, including being struck by mobile
equipment. Those types of fatalities increased more than three-fold and
five-fold, respectively. Also, during that period the number of
fatalities in SIC 0783 among Hispanic employees more than quadrupled,
increasing from 4 deaths in 1992 to 17 deaths in 2002. In 1992, 11
percent of the fatalities in SIC 0783 were Hispanic employees. By 2002,
however, Hispanic employees accounted for 24 percent of all fatalities,
which was significantly higher than the percentage of fatalities for
Hispanic employees in private industry as a whole (15 percent).

Data from OSHA's Integrated Management Information System (IMIS)
for SIC 0783 show similar results. From 1994-2007, fatalities resulting
from falls (from trees or bucket trucks) and being struck by falling
objects accounted for 28 and 29 percent of the fatal injuries,
respectively. Contact with electric current and transportation
accidents accounted for 20 and 9 percent of the fatalities,
respectively.

Looking at fatalities associated with chipper operations, a
hazardous task related to tree trimming and tree removal operations,
seven percent of employee deaths reported in the BLS data resulted when
an employee was pulled into a chipper or struck by the chipper hood or
other part of the chipper. Similarly, 20 fatalities reported in the
IMIS data during the past 10 years (1998-2007) occurred in chipper
operations. Seventy percent of those deaths resulted when employees
were caught and pulled into the chipper.

Injury data for SIC 0783 also indicate the hazardous nature of tree
care operations. For example, in 2002 BLS reported an average annual
injury rate of 7.6 cases per 100 fulltime workers in SIC 0783, which
was above the annual rate of 5.3 in private industry as a whole.\3\

This right here is why I don't want any more regulation as your
trying to take the small guy out. It will have little to do with
anything but trying to bankrupt small operators like myself.
I say osha should only be involved on gov. contracts. Many
people that have plenty experiance have little money unlike
yourself! I am barely hanging on in this economy and as a
result of greed and gov. irresponsibility have third world labor
here illegally stealing work. I say do something about that before
ya start anything, I repeat anything, including bailouts osha regs!
I would say the way to regulate would be to fine the customer.
 
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Just because someone is licensed does not mean they do quality work. I have seen plenty of plumbing and electrical nightmares. I license is not a measure of a company's quality of work, it is just a test you have to take( writing a check to "Treasurer of "Your State"") I can argue all night, but it's obvious you won't be swayed, I won't either.

I agree with you that a license will not guarantee quality work. You cannot license that. Quality work is determined by skill and integrity.

A license would make it so the any Tom, ####, and Harry cannot enter the tree care profession without going through a process. Whatever that process may be. That would be determined by the licensing board.
 
BCMA, you seem like a good enough guy and I'm not attacking you personally, but for arguments sake, consider this:

I looked into the Maryland Tree Expert license at one time. I couldn't take it since I wasnt a Maryland resident, but I got the study guide for the exam. It was completely outdated, and looked pretty simple, anyone could pass it if they read the book once and had some common sense. I have also seen tons of unlicensed companies operating up there. For me to ever believe in state licensing for tree work, It's going to have to operate much better than this. Like i said, i am opposed to this regulation, but if i have to pay for it, I want it to be organized. As for the state police enforcing this, I guess they will as long as a real crime isnt taking place at the same time. I admire your passion to some extent, but I am a real world type guy, and things arent always as cut and dry as your posts like to make them seem.
 
I agree with you that a license will not guarantee quality work. You cannot license that. Quality work is determined by skill and integrity.

A license would make it so the any Tom, ####, and Harry cannot enter the tree care profession without going through a process. Whatever that process may be. That would be determined by the licensing board.
It is already in place a business license is required of all businesses
so are you trying to add overhead?
 
BCMA apparently lives in the parralel universe where all illegalities are reprimanded and the righteous ones prevail all the time! :rolleyes:

People who run their business illegally should not only be reprimanded, but heavily fined as well. Those who operate legally and by the rules are the ones who should be rewarded for their work.

It's legal verses illegal. Are you a proponent for operating illegal?
 
People who run their business illegally should not only be reprimanded, but heavily fined as well. Those who operate legally and by the rules are the ones who should be rewarded for their work.

It's legal verses illegal. Are you a proponent for operating illegal?

I believe what he is saying is the same thing I was; How many of these "illegal" tree companies do you actually think will get caught and reprimanded? The police dont have enough time to catch and prosecute drunk drivers, illegal immigrants, drug dealers/users, etc, do you really think they have time to go after tree work?
 
This right here is why I don't want any more regulation as your
trying to take the small guy out. It will have little to do with
anything but trying to bankrupt small operators like myself.
I say osha should only be involved on gov. contracts. Many
people that have plenty experiance have little money unlike
yourself! I am barely hanging on in this economy and as a
result of greed and gov. irresponsibility have third world labor
here illegally stealing work. I say do something about that before
ya start anything, I repeat anything, including bailouts osha regs!
I would say the way to regulate would be to fine the customer.

This right here is why I don't want any more regulation as your
trying to take the small guy out. It will have little to do with
anything but trying to bankrupt small operators like myself.


Please, I’m not trying to take the small guy out. My stance is to help raise the level of professionalism of our industry to a higher level. Right now we have too many people in our industry getting killed. This should not be and our industry recognizes it. Licensing is one way to do this.

I say osha should only be involved on gov. contracts.

The purpose of OSHA is to regulate safety in private industry. To ensure safe work practices, so that an employer will not allow an employee to “free-climb” to the top of the tree and fall out; or get electrocuted.

Many people that have plenty experiance have little money unlike
yourself!


You do not know how much money I have. Don’t kid yourself.

If you are saying that it is alright to operate illegally because you cannot afford to operate legally, then I’m sure that you would say that it is OK to cheat on a college exam because I’m not as smart as the others. Does not this reasoning compare?

I am barely hanging on in this economy and as a
result of greed and gov. irresponsibility have third world labor
here illegally stealing work. I say do something about that before
ya start anything, I repeat anything, including bailouts osha regs!


So you do not like the “illegal’s” stealing work. Your singing my song! I don’t like illegal’s or legal’s stealing work, even if you’re a citizens of this dear country.

I would say the way to regulate would be to fine the customer.

I’ll have to think about that one. I have never considered that! :confused:
 
BCMA, you seem like a good enough guy and I'm not attacking you personally, but for arguments sake, consider this:

I looked into the Maryland Tree Expert license at one time. I couldn't take it since I wasnt a Maryland resident, but I got the study guide for the exam. It was completely outdated, and looked pretty simple, anyone could pass it if they read the book once and had some common sense. I have also seen tons of unlicensed companies operating up there. For me to ever believe in state licensing for tree work, It's going to have to operate much better than this. Like i said, i am opposed to this regulation, but if i have to pay for it, I want it to be organized. As for the state police enforcing this, I guess they will as long as a real crime isnt taking place at the same time. I admire your passion to some extent, but I am a real world type guy, and things arent always as cut and dry as your posts like to make them seem.

I agree with everything you said except that about not being regulated. Regulation on the state level is our only hope. If we set the fines high enough then operators are really going to think twice before doing it, and the police and courts would welcome a "cash-cow". That's what they're about anyhow.
 
I agree with everything you said except that about not being regulated. Regulation on the state level is our only hope. If we set the fines high enough then operators are really going to think twice before doing it, and the police and courts would welcome a "cash-cow". That's what they're about anyhow.

Calling the police and courts a cash cow for collecting fines is not helping to bring me over to your side on regulation. It just reinforces my opinion really.
 
It is already in place a business license is required of all businesses
so are you trying to add overhead?

An occupation license governed by a board strictly for the tree care industry could help regulate and control what is going on in our industry.
It would be a means to encourage and reward legal business and tree care practices, and punish illegal business practices.

I’m not in favor of legislating personal property rights. If people want to ruin their trees on their private property, let them do so. Personally, I do not want to be party to or provide this kind of service. There is too much good work out there to do.
 
Calling the police and courts a cash cow for collecting fines is not helping to bring me over to your side on regulation. It just reinforces my opinion really.

It has been my experience that when you get a speeding ticket, they are not so much interested in prosecuting the offense as they are in collecting the money. That is what I meant, but it's not always so.
 
It has been my experience that when you get a speeding ticket, they are not so much interested in prosecuting the offense as they are in collecting the money. That is what I meant, but it's not always so.

I know what you meant, thats why I think too much regulation is foolish. BTW, how will a state police officer be able to recognize non-ANSI standard work? How will this be argued in court?
 
"""A license would make it so the any Tom, ####, and Harry cannot enter the tree care profession without going through a process. Whatever that process may be. That would be determined by the licensing board."""


Again, in the perfect world that would be true but how many people do their own roofing, plumbing, electrical and carpentry for themselves and others without a license? Those guys don't get caught and OSHA never sees who they are unless there is a major issue like a death or major injury. Legally run businesses that advertise, employ and are well known in their community will be the random targets of OSHA because they know we are here and they CAN probe us.

"""People who run their business illegally should not only be reprimanded, but heavily fined as well. Those who operate legally and by the rules are the ones who should be rewarded for their work. """

Again true but as mentioned, the legal ones are the ones the feds know about and can therefore find you and investigate when they feel it appropriate at YOUR cost. The illegal guys won't be randomly investigated and for the most part, are the ones that are bringing the biz into the toilet and therefore are the ones requiring the industry develop rules. Ironic no?
 
I know what you meant, thats why I think too much regulation is foolish. BTW, how will a state police officer be able to recognize non-ANSI standard work? How will this be argued in court?

The police and courts would have nothing to do with enforcing ANSI standards. That would be done by the licensing board and local ordinances.
The police and courts would only be able to enforce the state licensing regulation. And that could also be assigned to another agency. I don’t have all the answers as of yet. I see the problem, and a reasonable solution, but have not pieced together all the details.
 
"""A license would make it so the any Tom, ####, and Harry cannot enter the tree care profession without going through a process. Whatever that process may be. That would be determined by the licensing board."""


Again, in the perfect world that would be true but how many people do their own roofing, plumbing, electrical and carpentry for themselves and others without a license? Those guys don't get caught and OSHA never sees who they are unless there is a major issue like a death or major injury. Legally run businesses that advertise, employ and are well known in their community will be the random targets of OSHA because they know we are here and they CAN probe us.

"""People who run their business illegally should not only be reprimanded, but heavily fined as well. Those who operate legally and by the rules are the ones who should be rewarded for their work. """

Again true but as mentioned, the legal ones are the ones the feds know about and can therefore find you and investigate when they feel it appropriate at YOUR cost. The illegal guys won't be randomly investigated and for the most part, are the ones that are bringing the biz into the toilet and therefore are the ones requiring the industry develop rules. Ironic no?

People who do their own work on their own property would not need to be licensed.


The legal guys have no worry about OSHA or other enforcing officers. They are legal.
 
The police and courts would have nothing to do with enforcing ANSI standards. That would be done by the licensing board and local ordinances.
The police and courts would only be able to enforce the state licensing regulation. And that could also be assigned to another agency. I don’t have all the answers as of yet. I see the problem, and a reasonable solution, but have not pieced together all the details.

Maybe not ANSI standards specifically, but I am sure the state licensing reg would be modeled after the ANSI standards. The state trooper will have to identify them. Better hope the tree company has a hack lawyer as well.
 
Maybe not ANSI standards specifically, but I am sure the state licensing reg would be modeled after the ANSI standards. The state trooper will have to identify them. Better hope the tree company has a hack lawyer as well.

The enforcement of ANSI regs would have to be controled internally by the licensing board. If you violate, you can be reported to the board for their review. The board would have the right you revoke your license. If you get caught without a license, you could get in trouble with the state.
 
I'm still having trouble seeing how the tree company will be caught. After someone blows the whistle on them, will a tree board inspector come out and look at the operation? I'm not trying to corner you or anything, but if I'm going to be swayed on this, I need these details.
 
I'm still having trouble seeing how the tree company will be caught. After someone blows the whistle on them, will a tree board inspector come out and look at the operation? I'm not trying to corner you or anything, but if I'm going to be swayed on this, I need these details.

If a state licensing was implemented you would know everyone in town that is licensed and who is not. As you drive through town and see a company doing tree work who are not licensed, you simply drop the dime…make the call…turn them it…rat em’ out…nark on them! Once they are turned in then the licensing board has a procedure to follow up on the complaint, and has the power to levy the 10,000 dollar fine, or whatever. I’ll guarantee you the shady tree care operators would disappear pretty fast.
 
If it is made necessary to get a license to cut trees I'd assume it would fall along the same lines as a license to do carpentry, plumbing, chimney sweeping and the like. 25 bucks and a few minutes of your time. You think that'll keep the hacks away?
 

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