OSHA is asking for YOUR input!

[BCMA]

If it is made necessary to get a license to cut trees I'd assume it would fall along the same lines as a license to do carpentry, plumbing, chimney sweeping and the like. 25 bucks and a few minutes of your time. You think that'll keep the hacks away?[/QUOTE]


Not necessarily. But they would have to produce their liability insurance, workman’s compensation, and take a competency test. This would not guarantee the quality of one’s workmanship. There are some on this website that have said that they do not care about trees or what they do to them. It’s just about money. They would not last where I operate.
But what licensing would do is close the door on people just jumping into the tree care business who do not have the proper business requirements and basic knowledge.

 

[Philbert]

It has been my experience that when you get a speeding ticket, they are not so much interested in prosecuting the offense as they are in collecting the money. That is what I meant, but it's not always so.

In my state, Minnesota , if you ask for an OSHA consultation visit, they offer matching grants of up to $10,000 to help you comply with needed safety equipment.

That's right, OSHA gives you money. They typically give out $1 - $2 million a year. We also have a dedicated logging guy who runs timber safety programs through Minnesota OSHA consultation
http://www.doli.state.mn.us/logging.html

Some other states, like Ohio, also have grant programs, but they work a little differently.

Government is government, but you gotta focus on the part about being safe (not just lucky) and not the risk of fines. If you guys don't participate it will be a bunch of lawyers who write the rules and standards.

Philbert

 

[BRCCArborist]

If a state licensing was implemented you would know everyone in town that is licensed and who is not. As you drive through town and see a company doing tree work who are not licensed, you simply drop the dime…make the call…turn them it…rat em’ out…nark on them! Once they are turned in then the licensing board has a procedure to follow up on the complaint, and has the power to levy the 10,000 dollar fine, or whatever. I’ll guarantee you the shady tree care operators would disappear pretty fast.

I would know everyone that has a license? Yeah maybe, maybe not. Case in point, I have a state pesticide applicators license, in several different categories. The only way you will know I am licensed is to have me get my card from my portfolio, or view the little certificate in my office. Unless you put the number on your truck(another expense) how can anyone know if you are pesticide certified or not? If I see a guy spraying Roundup on a guys sidewalk, it would be pretty arrogant of me to call the police or licensing board or whatever to come check him out. Not to mention if he is licensed, it was a total waste of his time, as well as mine. I think I'll stick to actually working, rather than cruising around looking for people who "may" not be licensed. This tree license you propose will be even more difficult to enforce.

 

[ropensaddle]

An occupation license governed by a board strictly for the tree care industry could help regulate and control what is going on in our industry.
It would be a means to encourage and reward legal business and tree care practices, and punish illegal business practices.

I’m not in favor of legislating personal property rights. If people want to ruin their trees on their private property, let them do so. Personally, I do not want to be party to or provide this kind of service. There is too much good work out there to do.

I abide by the anzi standard most times so what would be the benefit
of more overhead that I could spend better on tires to make my bucket
safe? I am not a hack but in my area there are plenty that are. I feel
larger tree companies are trying to push regulation so that they can
monopolize and turn it to walmart tree care! Then if you want to do
tree work you will have to work for corporations that while they file all paperwork safety meeting etc. They create a hazard by paying the
going rate and that is **** so, that is what they end up with as employee's.
I have been in the big corps and know about this first hand. I am
against this movement of huge corporations and will be until I
die.

 

[ropensaddle]

In my state, Minnesota , if you ask for an OSHA consultation visit, they offer matching grants of up to $10,000 to help you comply with needed safety equipment.

That's right, OSHA gives you money. They typically give out $1 - $2 million a year. We also have a dedicated logging guy who runs timber safety programs through Minnesota OSHA consultation
http://www.doli.state.mn.us/logging.html

Some other states, like Ohio, also have grant programs, but they work a little differently.

Government is government, but you gotta focus on the part about being safe (not just lucky) and not the risk of fines. If you guys don't participate it will be a bunch of lawyers who write the rules and standards.

Philbert

Yeah those grants are like awesome except I have never actually
known anyone to get one, except college grants. Then you bring
up matching like everyone has ten grand in their wallet
I saw where your company has 5000 employee's and mine has one
and nothing but four stiches in 26 years in the industry, do you
suppose that's luck, well do ya? I have numerous safety awards
from my corporate days, I ask what does that buy? Many things
will and can be labeled unsafe by control freaks like our government
but are they? Does one blinker out that you notice and plan to repair
the next day at the shop warrant a ten thousand dollar fine? I am
wondering if we have surrendered to the reds and they are trying to
break us in to communism more like Marxism slowly?:Eye:

 

[ropensaddle]

I would know everyone that has a license? Yeah maybe, maybe not. Case in point, I have a state pesticide applicators license, in several different categories. The only way you will know I am licensed is to have me get my card from my portfolio, or view the little certificate in my office. Unless you put the number on your truck(another expense) how can anyone know if you are pesticide certified or not? If I see a guy spraying Roundup on a guys sidewalk, it would be pretty arrogant of me to call the police or licensing board or whatever to come check him out. Not to mention if he is licensed, it was a total waste of his time, as well as mine. I think I'll stick to actually working, rather than cruising around looking for people who "may" not be licensed. This tree license you propose will be even more difficult to enforce.

I would think a truck load of illegals piling out would be grounds
for further investigating but I see them all over and lets not forget,
they are truly illegal in every way. They have not done one thing to
support small businesses they could at least enforce those laws.
I am going to write my congressman again on the matter and
request a bailout! If they can bailout the wealthiest in the country
I want mine too.

 

[BRCCArborist]

I would think a truck load of illegals piling out would be grounds
for further investigating but I see them all over and lets not forget,
they are truly illegal in every way. They have not done one thing to
support small businesses they could at least enforce those laws.
I am going to write my congressman again on the matter and
request a bailout! If they can bailout the wealthiest in the country
I want mine too.

I'm with you there.

 

[clearance]

A license would make it so the any Tom, ####, and Harry cannot enter the tree care profession without going through a process. Whatever that process may be. That would be determined by the licensing board.

Whatever that process may be, here we go.......the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Rftreeman]

If a state licensing was implemented you would know everyone in town that is licensed and who is not. As you drive through town and see a company doing tree work who are not licensed, you simply drop the dime…make the call…turn them it…rat em’ out…nark on them! Once they are turned in then the licensing board has a procedure to follow up on the complaint, and has the power to levy the 10,000 dollar fine, or whatever. I’ll guarantee you the shady tree care operators would disappear pretty fast.

a state license would do about as much as the local license does, not a darn thing to better this industry but maybe if you went on a road trip with a big bus with all your info printed on the side maybe, just maybe you'd change something. I think this is more of a personal matter to you and not so much as what people think of the professionalism of the industry.

 

[Philbert]

Yeah those grants are like awesome except I have never actually known anyone to get one, except college grants . . .

NO!

They are NOT research grants. They are for buying safety equipment.

They are matching grants, as if you apply for $1,000 you have to also spend $1,000 on approved safety gear.

You have to be a Minnesota employer who pays into the work comp system. If you don't classify yourself as an employee of your company, or don't carry work comp on yourself, you are not eligible for these. But companies with even one 'employee' do. Other states have other rules.

Read the link below and ask your state or province if they have something similar (or why not?). If you live in Minnesota, check these out. You can even recommend that similar grants be put into the OSHA regs that started this thread.

http://www.doli.state.mn.us/grants.html

Philbert

 

[ropensaddle]

NO!

They are NOT research grants. They are for buying safety equipment.

They are matching grants, as if you apply for $1,000 you have to also spend $1,000 on approved safety gear.

You have to be a Minnesota employer who pays into the work comp system. If you don't classify yourself as an employee of your company, or don't carry work comp on yourself, you are not eligible for these. But companies with even one 'employee' do. Other states have other rules.

Read the link below and ask your state or province if they have something similar (or why not?). If you live in Minnesota, check these out. You can even recommend that similar grants be put into the OSHA regs that started this thread.

http://www.doli.state.mn.us/grants.html

Philbert

So under your plan only the rich can succeed eh:monkey:
I am the only employee and workmans con is just that
no small operation can afford that I pay in several thousand
dollars for insurance but no comp use temps if needed and let
that agency do that. The big corporations have made this comp
go through the roof and most injuries happen on their watch.
Disgruntled employee's being underpaid so Ceo's get to play
golf and have a private leer jet and you are trying to make
it worse with more regulation. It is time the people start
regulating the government as they are supposed to work
on our behalf. Safely starving a human is not safety.

 

[Philbert]

. . .I am the only employee and workmans con is just that no small operation can afford that I pay in several thousand dollars for insurance but no comp use temps if needed and let that agency do that. The big corporations have made this comp
go through the roof and most injuries happen on their watch. .

Off topic here but, but worth running down a bit.

Work comp rates go up because people doing that type of work get injured. Tree guys get hurt more frequently than copier repair guys, and get hurt more severely, so tree guys pay more for work comp insurance.

Work comp rates vary by state. So if more tree workers in State 'X' get hurt, they will pay higher work comp rates than tree workers in State 'Y'.

Bigger companies, and companies that have been in business for more than 4 years, can lower their company's work comp premiums if they have fewer injuries than the average company in that state doing the same work. This is referred to as the 'experience modification', or 'mod'. Companies with a worse injury record can have their premiums raised by the same method.

So 'big corporations' with poor injury records may pay more for their work comp coverage than a smaller company with a better safety record.

Philbert

 

[ropensaddle]

Off topic here but, but worth running down a bit.

Work comp rates go up because people doing that type of work get injured. Tree guys get hurt more frequently than copier repair guys, and get hurt more severely, so tree guys pay more for work comp insurance.

Work comp rates vary by state. So if more tree workers in State 'X' get hurt, they will pay higher work comp rates than tree workers in State 'Y'.

Bigger companies, and companies that have been in business for more than 4 years, can lower their company's work comp premiums if they have fewer injuries than the average company in that state doing the same work. This is referred to as the 'experience modification', or 'mod'. Companies with a worse injury record can have their premiums raised by the same method.

So 'big corporations' with poor injury records may pay more for their work comp coverage than a smaller company with a better safety record.

Philbert

The big corporate tit has made the rates inflate and the same
over paid office worker pays 1/32th the rate and then jews you on your
price when bidding. They have the rates too high for small operators to
even think of getting. Construction same way I can show you many many houses built without one dime spent in comp insurance. The pay has to
make the cost and it seldom will here. I do all my own climbing and bucket work because I am very experienced and as I have said 4 stiches in 26 yrs
can't be luck when 13 years were spent as a danger tree expert for a local
power company. Where I seen people with half my experiance getting paid
a few cents less and I received 20 cent annual raise and missed two days in seven years better than the Ceo's record!

 

[Philbert]

I do all my own climbing and bucket work because I am very experienced and as I have said 4 stiches in 26 yrs
can't be luck when 13 years were spent as a danger tree expert for a local
power company.

Two problems with luck and experience:

1. Luck runs out.

2. It took you 26 years to get your experience - you can't start out with it and that means new people are at risk. You are a 'survivor' - where are are all the guys who started out with you and dropped out along the way due to injuries? It should be safe for them too.

Philbert

 

[Bigus Termitius]

you can't fix stupid.

 

[Soilarch]

Guys, I've read the first page word for word and then made a very thorough scan of the rest of pages. I may have missed something. However, I'm going to school for Occupational Safety and Health. (Yes, it's a legit 4-year degree.)

First off, if OSHA is opening the floor to public review/comment...then the regulation is already on it's way. So arguing about whether or not regulation is needed is a moot point. It's coming.

Secondly, most of you will live in a state where OSHA is not federal. Each state is given the choice as to whether or not they want to run their own OSHA or leave the Federal government to it. I can't think of why any state would choose not to, most just take the Federal CFR slap "State of XXXXXXXXXX" on the cover and go to it. As always, California is an exception

Thirdly, for people like ropensaddle. If you have less than 10 employees you are effectively, not technically, but very effectively invisible to OSHA. They aren't going to start making the rounds and inspecting every tree-climber. Regulation for you guys will mean "rules", which you will likely already be following from common sense, research, and funding for better equipment. Look at the small-guy roofers, framers, and generally everything related with residential construction that has already been mentioned. The small-guy is doing fine and OSHA's been on a first-name basis with Construction for a loooong time.

I don't know jack about professional tree service. (Well, I suppose I know a lot more than joe-down-the-road just from this site. But that's still "jack" compared to you who are in the field.) How much do you think OSHA knows? They realize that and it is exactly WHY they open it to public review. They want YOUR input because they realize YOU are the guy who knows whats needed and can prevent the oppressive, impractical, industry-strangling, tyranny that has you guys angered/frightened. They also know you guys can come up with regulations that WORK instead of wasting a ton of paper, time, and effort on everyone's part.

Again, I understand the strong feelings over this, but if they've opened it to public review the ball is already rolling. Speak now, speak loudly, speak sensible, or force some dimwit behind an office to take a guess at what needs done.

 

[Booshcat]

Creeping Outright Socialism
A new layer of "Tree Safety Experts" at OSHA on our dime telling us how to run our businesses.
Another bunch telling us how to cut or not cut, defining what practices are acceptable whether the customer likes it or not.
Don't worry, when the new messiah is elected there wont be any money for homeowners to spend on tree services.
Hackers and homeowners alike doing dangerous things will greatly increase in numbers.

Tree Services 0
Emergency Rooms 1

 

[ropensaddle]

Two problems with luck and experience:

1. Luck runs out.

2. It took you 26 years to get your experience - you can't start out with it and that means new people are at risk. You are a 'survivor' - where are are all the guys who started out with you and dropped out along the way due to injuries? It should be safe for them too.

Philbert

Look I have taken risk by doing this work. The inevitable fact is; some
people will never learn to be as focused as this work requires,then add
the corporate tit and its production requirements and the fact that
through nepotism, and baby treating the good help, they have ran off the best help. They ran them off because: they have the experiance to call
politics of the corporate tit what it is. Have I lost friends along the way,
yes I have, they were unfortunate sure but like myself they were men
and knew risks were to be encountered. The big problem is; though
some of this bs may be well meant, the result in the corporate world is a bunch of I ain't climbing this or that creating whinny babies. I admit I
entered the field in dangerous times learned all I could and done work
that you guys would have a cow over safely. I have removed 12" by
15' overhang over a three phase 2' above it because it had to be done.
I was the man that did it because, I could do it and my boss knew it.
Do I feel I was in harms way, I feel a man knows he is in a dangerous
job and after a good degree of training should man up and do the work.
I often wonder about these so called safety men the one at our company
had never climbed a foot stool let alone a burning tree. To me understanding
the hazard is the first lesson to be learned.

 

[ropensaddle]

Guys, I've read the first page word for word and then made a very thorough scan of the rest of pages. I may have missed something. However, I'm going to school for Occupational Safety and Health. (Yes, it's a legit 4-year degree.)

First off, if OSHA is opening the floor to public review/comment...then the regulation is already on it's way. So arguing about whether or not regulation is needed is a moot point. It's coming.

Secondly, most of you will live in a state where OSHA is not federal. Each state is given the choice as to whether or not they want to run their own OSHA or leave the Federal government to it. I can't think of why any state would choose not to, most just take the Federal CFR slap "State of XXXXXXXXXX" on the cover and go to it. As always, California is an exception

Thirdly, for people like ropensaddle. If you have less than 10 employees you are effectively, not technically, but very effectively invisible to OSHA. They aren't going to start making the rounds and inspecting every tree-climber. Regulation for you guys will mean "rules", which you will likely already be following from common sense, research, and funding for better equipment. Look at the small-guy roofers, framers, and generally everything related with residential construction that has already been mentioned. The small-guy is doing fine and OSHA's been on a first-name basis with Construction for a loooong time.

I don't know jack about professional tree service. (Well, I suppose I know a lot more than joe-down-the-road just from this site. But that's still "jack" compared to you who are in the field.) How much do you think OSHA knows? They realize that and it is exactly WHY they open it to public review. They want YOUR input because they realize YOU are the guy who knows whats needed and can prevent the oppressive, impractical, industry-strangling, tyranny that has you guys angered/frightened. They also know you guys can come up with regulations that WORK instead of wasting a ton of paper, time, and effort on everyone's part.

Again, I understand the strong feelings over this, but if they've opened it to public review the ball is already rolling. Speak now, speak loudly, speak sensible, or force some dimwit behind an office to take a guess at what needs done.

The problem I have already mentioned and you are confirming it.
Positions should go to tree veterans. There is already enough positions
for other things for a fresh college boy. Another problem is it is being spurn
by bigger tree services in an effort to turn it into walmart tree service.






Now here is something to chew on for the government we the people
have had it with your actions and lack of them and we are :Eye:
You want to do something positive rid the illegals, increase the standard
of living to what is was in the fifties. The biggest reason for the accidents
is the pay is not attracting quality help. I know this because I have seen it
my whole career and the last crew the corporate tit sent me, the boys were intellectually challenged to say the least.

Oh yeah on the first name basis I have friends in the construction
business and I will tell ya you would not appreciate that name.
They were fining 10000.00 for the silt fence being down one was
a limb had snapped and no one even knew it was down until the
fine. So is it now 10000.00 for a cone not placed exactly 100 foot
behind the chipper?

 

[Soilarch]

The problem I have already mentioned and you are confirming it.
Positions should go to tree veterans. There is already enough positions
for other things for a fresh college boy.

Oh yeah on the first name basis I have friends in the construction
business and I will tell ya you would not appreciate that name.
They were fining 10000.00 for the silt fence being down one was
a limb had snapped and no one even knew it was down until the
fine.

Ropensaddle, you're operating under a few very common assumptions that are just wrong. They ARE common so I don't blame you.

1. My degree will not "boot out" anybody who is a "tree veteran". At least not in a GOOD safety program. (Besides, this "college boy" won't be going into the tree business.) I spent the summer down south in commercial construction (concrete: high-rises, medical, education/research facilities). Every single person of rank in the safety department for that company had either "come up on their tools" or had been in the game for well over a decade. My degree got me in the door, and only that...then my education began and I basically was an extra pair of hands and eyes for the "veterans". Assuming the tree world is starting down this path the veterans will have the jobs/authorites. Us "college boys" will be their assistants and their reference points.

I also have no plan to work for OSHA or any other enforcement group/agency. They make up about 10% of the jobs in the "safety" field. I have no desire to be a whistle blower.

If your construction friends got fined for $1000 for a silt fence they either dealt with the situation poorly and the inspector did it to spite them or the guy did them a favor by not finely them for a "Serious" violation or a whole series of violations elsewhere. If it's recent enough be sure to tell them they can appeal it.

As to the economy...can't help there. What's happened since the fifties? Unions, credit lending/using has skyrockets, the Warren Court of 53-69 (dates are fuzzy on that), WE rebuilt Japan AND taught them how to make stuff cheaper and better than we do (his name was W. E. Deming) and OSHA didn't show up '70...and they should help with the illegals situation in a particular field IF that field want help. I know commercial construction doesn't. I know for a fact that there are Superintendents who tell the mexicans "Just give me 9 numbers, and 9 numbers".