OSHA is asking for YOUR input!

[ropensaddle]

Ropensaddle, you're operating under a few very common assumptions that are just wrong. They ARE common so I don't blame you.

1. My degree will not "boot out" anybody who is a "tree veteran". At least not in a GOOD safety program. (Besides, this "college boy" won't be going into the tree business.) I spent the summer down south in commercial construction (concrete: high-rises, medical, education/research facilities). Every single person of rank in the safety department for that company had either "come up on their tools" or had been in the game for well over a decade. My degree got me in the door, and only that...then my education began and I basically was an extra pair of hands and eyes for the "veterans". Assuming the tree world is starting down this path the veterans will have the jobs/authorites. Us "college boys" will be their assistants and their reference points.

I also have no plan to work for OSHA or any other enforcement group/agency. They make up about 10% of the jobs in the "safety" field. I have no desire to be a whistle blower.

If your construction friends got fined for $1000 for a silt fence they either dealt with the situation poorly and the inspector did it to spite them or the guy did them a favor by not finely them for a "Serious" violation or a whole series of violations elsewhere. If it's recent enough be sure to tell them they can appeal it.

As to the economy...can't help there. What's happened since the fifties? Unions, credit lending/using has skyrockets, the Warren Court of 53-69 (dates are fuzzy on that), WE rebuilt Japan AND taught them how to make stuff cheaper and better than we do (his name was W. E. Deming) and OSHA didn't show up '70...and they should help with the illegals situation in a particular field IF that field want help. I know commercial construction doesn't. I know for a fact that there are Superintendents who tell the mexicans "Just give me 9 numbers, and 9 numbers".

It was 10000.00 fine for the silt fence.
I would think being a legal citizen should be the first safety rule.

 

[ropensaddle]

I have a question what is wrong with the ANZI 300 we already have?
I have not seen too much sketchy stuff in it so why the change?

 

[Soilarch]

There's likely nothing wrong with it.

Go tell them that with a short explanation of why it's perfectly adequate. It's quite common for OSHA to say..."blah, blah, blah, in accordance with the ANZI XXX." They even reference the ISO sometimes.

If you can get them to adopt the ANZI 300 what will change? Nothing really, except that the ANZI 300 would no longer be a guideline, it would carry the weight of law.

 

[lxt]

this govt. cant regulate itself!! so stay outta my biz, I pay taxes, hire legals, provide PPE, tailgate meetings & keep all my paper work up to snuff.

My equipment is maintained and undergoes regular inspections, its not brandnew!! and may not be the best looking equipment out there but it does the job and pays my bills along with my workers and takes care of their families. problem in this trade is.....money can be good and felons, rapists, illegals and all the dirtbags can get hired for the lack of decent people wanting to do it!! Soooo lets regulate it then we`ll de-regulate it and on and on.

COMMONSENSE..............leave us alone and we`ll do fine!


LXT..........

 

[ropensaddle]

There's likely nothing wrong with it.

Go tell them that with a short explanation of why it's perfectly adequate. It's quite common for OSHA to say..."blah, blah, blah, in accordance with the ANZI XXX." They even reference the ISO sometimes.

If you can get them to adopt the ANZI 300 what will change? Nothing really, except that the ANZI 300 would no longer be a guideline, it would carry the weight of law.

Ok I understand now I thought they were trying to make things safe
instead of harass and fine and create more bailout money I was wrong again

 

[Soilarch]

You said you thought the 300 was 'enough'. Then you dog it like it's worthless and simply a tool for collection. Do you really approve of the 300? If you like the 300 and follow the 300, because you feel it is adequate and consider yourself a safe operator, when/if the 300 becomes the law it will do nothing but HELP you.

How many times have I got on here and heard you bellyache and moan about the "cheap" guy who's got a few ropes, a pickup and a saw undercutting your bids? Do they follow the 300? It's another sales pitch for you when you place bids. You could likely scare many of the small guys off in your area when you start mentioning OSHA's new regulations and explain to them that compliance is the law.


Go here and read the comments so far...there's a whapping 6 of them.
http://www.regulations.gov/search/search_results.jsp?css=0&&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchall&Ne=2+8+11+8053+8054+8098+8074+8066+8084+8055&N=0&Ntt=OSHA-2008-0012&sid=11CDA8938065
Best I can tell there's only 2 true submissions. The rest are OSHA documents pertaining to the actual request for review. You heart-felt topic of illegal immigrants is the sole topic of one of the submissions. The other has two attachments from the Ohio DOT on chainsaw and bucket truck use.

Get in there and make a solid case for regulation NOT improving safety in the field. OSHA will leave it alone if you can convince them. They're busy enough as it is and they'll be the first to tell you that. Trouble is your fellow tree-men have been having more accidents and it's caught there attention. (That's one of the 6 submission, it's towards the bottom. They've got the numbers on their side so you need to get a good case pulled together before you just submit something off the cuff.)

Arkansas doesn't have a state plan so I'd write your congressman and tell them to get with the program and develop a state OSHA plan so the money never leaves the state. Even when it does go to federal government it all comes back to OSHA...but the concept may help you feel better.


As to any more posts, I'm done here. You obviously hate the idea. Your industry's "self-regulation" is getting people maimed and killed and OSHA won't sit back and let that happen. Your own kind is to blame. They're giving YOU a chance to make sure it's done PROPERLY and within reason. Stop kicking around in the dust wishing the stars had stayed in line and get to work to make sure this thing is done properly. Get a network of fellow tree-service professionals together and make your case for a set of sensible, attainable, and economically feasible standards.

I'm out.

 

[rbtree]

If a state licensing was implemented you would know everyone in town that is licensed and who is not. As you drive through town and see a company doing tree work who are not licensed, you simply drop the dime…make the call…turn them it…rat em’ out…nark on them! Once they are turned in then the licensing board has a procedure to follow up on the complaint, and has the power to levy the 10,000 dollar fine, or whatever. I’ll guarantee you the shady tree care operators would disappear pretty fast.

In Wa state, the rules have changed for tree services. A contractor's license, insurance, and bond are now required. It isn't specific to the tree trade, but is a change. Until last year, unless a stump was being dug out and hauled off, a tree service only needed a simple business license. That has changed, and there's a hefty fine if you're not legit. L&I even had a notice on their website warning of the fines for operating illegally.

I've always had a contractor's license. It's only $52 or so a year, a bond costs me maybe $50, and those are the only additional fees besides liability insurance.

 

[lxt]

A300 to be law?? whatever, I follow this standard anyway! but let me tell ya something, there will always be in every trade those that moonlight, I did it and so has everyone on here at some point or another.

when wealthy developers grease politicians palms and hire illegals or cheap unskilled labor cause they want more $$$$$ for themselves who`s to blame? you think osha, state police or some new regulation enforcement squad is gonna fine and enforce this standard or any other standard for that matter, he!! NO! the only ones who will be affected will be small to mid-sized biz`s because there are more of us.

the wealthy companies will get away with it cuz they got people, the poor "I own nothing work for cash,beer,firewood" will get away with it cuz they got nothing to loose!! so who`s left to fine?


LXT................

 

[BCMA]

A300 to be law?? whatever, I follow this standard anyway! but let me tell ya something, there will always be in every trade those that moonlight, I did it and so has everyone on here at some point or another.

when wealthy developers grease politicians palms and hire illegals or cheap unskilled labor cause they want more $$$$$ for themselves who`s to blame? you think osha, state police or some new regulation enforcement squad is gonna fine and enforce this standard or any other standard for that matter, he!! NO! the only ones who will be affected will be small to mid-sized biz`s because there are more of us.

the wealthy companies will get away with it cuz they got people, the poor "I own nothing work for cash,beer,firewood" will get away with it cuz they got nothing to loose!! so who`s left to fine?


LXT................

Please, tell me what A300 standard represents? Do you know?

 

[ropensaddle]

Please, tell me what A300 standard represents? Do you know?

Which section of the standard are you asking about?

 

[ropensaddle]

You said you thought the 300 was 'enough'. Then you dog it like it's worthless and simply a tool for collection. Do you really approve of the 300? If you like the 300 and follow the 300, because you feel it is adequate and consider yourself a safe operator, when/if the 300 becomes the law it will do nothing but HELP you.

How many times have I got on here and heard you bellyache and moan about the "cheap" guy who's got a few ropes, a pickup and a saw undercutting your bids? Do they follow the 300? It's another sales pitch for you when you place bids. You could likely scare many of the small guys off in your area when you start mentioning OSHA's new regulations and explain to them that compliance is the law.


Go here and read the comments so far...there's a whapping 6 of them.
http://www.regulations.gov/search/search_results.jsp?css=0&&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchall&Ne=2+8+11+8053+8054+8098+8074+8066+8084+8055&N=0&Ntt=OSHA-2008-0012&sid=11CDA8938065
Best I can tell there's only 2 true submissions. The rest are OSHA documents pertaining to the actual request for review. You heart-felt topic of illegal immigrants is the sole topic of one of the submissions. The other has two attachments from the Ohio DOT on chainsaw and bucket truck use.

Get in there and make a solid case for regulation NOT improving safety in the field. OSHA will leave it alone if you can convince them. They're busy enough as it is and they'll be the first to tell you that. Trouble is your fellow tree-men have been having more accidents and it's caught there attention. (That's one of the 6 submission, it's towards the bottom. They've got the numbers on their side so you need to get a good case pulled together before you just submit something off the cuff.)

Arkansas doesn't have a state plan so I'd write your congressman and tell them to get with the program and develop a state OSHA plan so the money never leaves the state. Even when it does go to federal government it all comes back to OSHA...but the concept may help you feel better.


As to any more posts, I'm done here. You obviously hate the idea. Your industry's "self-regulation" is getting people maimed and killed and OSHA won't sit back and let that happen. Your own kind is to blame. They're giving YOU a chance to make sure it's done PROPERLY and within reason. Stop kicking around in the dust wishing the stars had stayed in line and get to work to make sure this thing is done properly. Get a network of fellow tree-service professionals together and make your case for a set of sensible, attainable, and economically feasible standards.

I'm out.

I am sorry you misunderstood, I was not dogging the 300 in the least.
Merely the fines or added overhead they will likely include. If they were
really so concerned with safety, they would give bonus for safe work
performed. I looked into that link and you would have to be a lawyer
to understand it. I could not even find where to submit anything.


Now the fact is; osha is not going to make much differance imo.
Every year ten tree services go into the paper, some good some
not. Many of the officers or what ever you call them don't like
tree men because, they want to pull out some reg but have never
been forty foot out on a limb removing burning overhang so; they don't
actually have a clue except the way it is performed under perfect
conditions that are seldom encountered. I am all about safety so;
I am not resisting something that works,doesn't cost a penny and
is not designed with the we will get ya attitude so often had by these
un-experienced armchair quarterbacks! Now if you can come up with
a rewards plan verses a getcha plan I am all ears?


Oh and don't say your safety and we cannot give rewards,
when they just gave 70000000000000000 worth to the
wealthiest sob's in this country.

 

[BRCCArborist]

Please, tell me what A300 standard represents? Do you know?

I'm sure everyone meant z133 when they were talking about ANSI tree care operations standards being made into OSHA law.

 

[ropensaddle]

Yeah the whole package is here somewhere been
through it a few times but it would be a long law
and extremely hard to enforce all that. I just think
we already have enough money grabs and I know
if they come up with something they will want money.

 

[BCMA]

I'm sure everyone meant z133 when they were talking about ANSI tree care operations standards being made into OSHA law.

My point is that I believe there are those who are responding to this thread that do not even know he difference between the Z133.1 standards and the A300 standards. Could it be that they do not even own a copy, and have not read them?

 

[rbtree]

Very likely, BCMA......

I have copies of each...and now have all 6 of the A 300 standards, as I just joined TCIA.....

 

[ropensaddle]

My point is that I believe there are those who are responding to this thread that do not even know he difference between the Z133.1 standards and the A300 standards. Could it be that they do not even own a copy, and have not read them?

I have somewhere around 1000.00 worth plus some pricey software
and though I have not been through all of it, I have been through most.
The last time I was at an OSHA meeting the instructor said no climbing
out of a bucket and I immediately stood up and said my piece. He after
hearing it kept looking through his books and finally said the way I did it
seemed safe but the book said no. I told him book or no book I was going
to continue to climb out the way I have for many years.

 

[BCMA]

I am sorry you misunderstood, I was not dogging the 300 in the least.
Merely the fines or added overhead they will likely include. If they were
really so concerned with safety, they would give bonus for safe work
performed. I looked into that link and you would have to be a lawyer
to understand it. I could not even find where to submit anything.


Now the fact is; osha is not going to make much differance imo.
Every year ten tree services go into the paper, some good some
not. Many of the officers or what ever you call them don't like
tree men because, they want to pull out some reg but have never
been forty foot out on a limb removing burning overhang so; they don't
actually have a clue except the way it is performed under perfect
conditions that are seldom encountered. I am all about safety so;
I am not resisting something that works,doesn't cost a penny and
is not designed with the we will get ya attitude so often had by these
un-experienced armchair quarterbacks! Now if you can come up with
a rewards plan verses a getcha plan I am all ears?


Oh and don't say your safety and we cannot give rewards,
when they just gave 70000000000000000 worth to the
wealthiest sob's in this country.

Ropensaddle--- Here is the link found in the OSHA doc.

To read or download comments submitted in response to this
Federal Register notice or other materials in the docket, go to Docket
No. OSHA-2008-0012 at http://www.regulations.gov or the OSHA Docket Office at the address above. All documents in the docket are listed in the http://www.regulations.gov index, however, some information (for example, copyrighted material) is not publicly available to read or download through the Web site. All submissions, including copyrighted
material, are available for inspection and copying at the OSHA Docket
Office.

You might like to go to their website and give them your ideas. I'm sure that your clear-mindedness and intelligent thinking will help persuade OSHA that all arborists are safety conscience as yourself, and that they have no reason to be concerned concerning the rising number of deaths and severe injuries in our industry.

 

[ropensaddle]

Ropensaddle--- Here is the link found in the OSHA doc.

To read or download comments submitted in response to this
Federal Register notice or other materials in the docket, go to Docket
No. OSHA-2008-0012 at http://www.regulations.gov or the OSHA Docket Office at the address above. All documents in the docket are listed in the http://www.regulations.gov index, however, some information (for example, copyrighted material) is not publicly available to read or download through the Web site. All submissions, including copyrighted
material, are available for inspection and copying at the OSHA Docket
Office.

You might like to go to their website and give them your ideas. I'm sure that your clear-mindedness and intelligent thinking will help persuade OSHA that all arborists are safety conscience as yourself, and that they have no reason to be concerned concerning the rising number of deaths and sever injuries in our industry.

Bcma I like the way you put words in my mouth and I know there
are tree services that are not safe. I just don't feel the Gustavo
is going to solve anything with their wonderful record of approach.
I also do not feel they have the best interests of small business at
heart or the country for that matter. I am sorry you feel that fines
and high fees are the way to create a safe workplace and government
pushing of big business is ok! It could be that yours may end up too small
in the end buddy, it could be the dictator will want you to slave for him.
I once again say, the number of injury's is going to fluctuate take for
example Katrina, the government did such a fine job ensuring the safety
and well being of those folks but that is not my point. The point is; there
were more disasters tree related in this decade than in many which has
every person that can yank a cord out sawing, that could very well reflect
the rise in injury rate. Again, I do not believe OSHA is all bad, their objective being safety is great, the way they carry it out not. Rewards will accomplish way more than communist control and remember this is my opinion!

 

[lxt]

Please, tell me what A300 standard represents? Do you know?

you want me to qoute the whole document? what an arrogant idiot!! I have the up to date standard in my bid/quote binder. Oops im sorry, only ISA arborists can truely know the meaning of everything tree related.

what an arrogant knowitall, wants to regulate tree care field his way cause thats the only way thats right......B.S. you need to do more tree work, climbing and ground work while using commonsense(or lack thereof) to get a better understanding of this trade!!


LXT..........

 

[lxt]

My point is that I believe there are those who are responding to this thread that do not even know he difference between the Z133.1 standards and the A300 standards. Could it be that they do not even own a copy, and have not read them?

I think you assume things, I bet all my safety(PPE) meets or exceeds the 133.1...MMmmm could this be the standard for safety? while the A300 just might be the standards for tree care in and of itself? Ill have to confirm this with the grand puba when I meet flintstone and rubble down at the ISA lodge later!!


LXT.............