Outdoor wood stoves

[Bill G]

django,

I do have rentals but I really am not interested in having them burn wood at this time. I have kicked around the idea of building a multiplex that utilizes hot water heat and a large outdoor unit. I believe I could make it work but I am just thinking about it for know. The reason I would need multiple units is I have a house and small shop at my place, a house and the main shop at the farm, a house a medium shop at my brothers, and a large shop and small warehouse at another location. In addition if I can get a good deal on some my neighbor would want one also. If I could find a product that I could honestly stand behind I would be interested in being a dealer for them. This would probably never work out but it is a thought. As for the one that you built have you calculated your total investment to see if it would be profitable for you to build them for others.

Bill G

 

[django]

Total: stove, pump, exchangers, etc... about $1700. It could be done a lot cheaper, and a lot more expensive. There is a whole bunch of labour in one of these when you do it by yourself with equipment not necessarily specialized for the purpose. ( Material handling is a big issue, they are HEAVY.) I think you could build them profitably with a dedicated manufacturing facility without too much trouble. To bulid them "on the side" your gonna pay yourself about $5 an hour if your'e price-competitive, if your lucky. I still wonder if someone won't have them built overseas and shipped here, that would be very tough to compete with, raw material's are relatively in-expensive, it's labour intensive to say the least. A viable option would be to become a final assembler and sub-contract the various components and assemblies to people who specialize in them. ( Doors, drums, etc...)

If your going to buy multiple units, your talking about a very significant purchase ( obviously). I don't think your going to get a piece of crap if you buy from any of the "big boys"... Heatmor, Central Boiler, Aquatherm, etc... As I have tried to get across in some previous posts, none of them are "efficient" users of fuel. by nature they are grossly in-efficient.
"Free" fuel is the only way they make any sense. ( at least to me). Their is so much B.S. thrown around by the manufacturers it is hard to tell what's what. That's why I did so much research before building mine. When it's all said and done they are nothing more than a large firebox surrounded by water, with a natural draft or induced draft. I think if it was me, talking about that kind of cash outlay, I would go with the best warranty, from the most established manufacturer, from the most reputable dealer. I'm not sure who that is, But it is probably Central Boiler. Or even (gasp) Hardy. One thing I should have mentioned about Hardy, warped doors, etc... is that in every instance, ( one I personally know of where the stove "boiled" and did all kinds of damage) Hardy was by all accounts very responsive, and took care of the issues quickly and professionally. So, how's that for muddy water??

 

[Crofter]

I 'd agree with what Django says about building it yourself. If you can find a tank of sorts such as a retired propane tank or something the right size that you just basically have to cut in a door you might be ok hours wise. If you have roll plate , make the circumference and lenghtwise welds etc., forget it. you wont make minimum wage even if you are a tradesman. There can be troubles with localised hot spots causing boil over and cracking is not an easy thing to prevent.. Just making things stronger doesnt do it. Sometimes it takes two or three years of thermo cycling befor a problem may show up. They do suck up a lot of wood, unless like one agricultural application that was big enough to use whole round hay bales in theirs.

Frank

 

[django]

I searched high and low for "tanks" or drums etc... that would work. The problem I ran into is you need 2 tanks, of different dia. that would allow a reasonable water cap. for a non pressurized application. I am sure they could be found eventually, I ran out of patience, It would have definitely made life easier. I figured it out when I was done, I have well ove 100 ft. of weld in my stove. And it's round. You will have even more if you build a "square" one. More welds=more leaks. However if you don't have the equipment to roll barrels you don't have much choice, unless you have a fab shop roll them for you. ( and that really shouldn't cost that much)


I wonder how many BTU's are in one of those big round bales?

 

[Crofter]

Django They weigh around 1200 lbs the same as a face cord of hardwood so would have roughly the same btu content. I will do a bit more checking on the tanks to see how they will nest one inside the other.

Frank

 

[django]

Crofter,
Somethting to keep in mind, you need a lot more water cap. if you going to use natural draft versus an induced draft.( like 300gal versus 150gal) I figure you"re already are aware of this, just a reminder. Also, I think I posted this link before, but here it is again.http://www.deb-design.com I bought this guys plans when I started out, and didn't use most of it ( square design) but I did use a lot of his peripheral equipment recommendations, specifically his damper/fan assy. it's pretty cool. I also emailed him a few times and he was very prompt answering questions. and I also see he now has a pallett burner plan too!! ( Wonder if he loads it with a forklift?) Let me know how you come out.
Django

 

[Gopher]

others units

wow, I haven't kept up on this post! I've missed some great discussion.

As I sit here in my freezing office of the old house I bought, missing my outdoor boiler at previous house, the question again has been made by me to my wife, "When can we afford to put in a unit?!" (Or really, "When can't we afford to?"

A guy just north of me (he runs a sawmill operation and specialty wood finishing business, just put in two (I think it was two) Garn units. He does all of his building heating (three sperate kilns) domestic water heating office, the works. I had researched garn on the web. Seems more elaborate (is this more efficient I don't know), but also spendy. I have owned a Central Boiler (already installed at home one), and installed my own Heatmor (home two). Now, if I do another one, I, like anyone else, want it to be better each time.

I'll shut up and listen. I don't have the capability to build my own. I am handy enouogh, and have anough assistance to take care of the plumbing and furnace ductwork, but need to buy the unit.

Thank you all for your comments.

Gopher

 

[Bill G]

Ok I really do not mean to get a cr"" load or trouble stirred up here but I can assure you that a 1200Lb bale of hay will not produce the same heat as 1200lbs of good hardwood. There have been some bio-mass burners built to dry corn with moderate success but they are highly inefficent and extremely smoky. Bio-mass burns slow and at a relatively low temp. If you increase the draft you can increase their efficiency. The only way they can work is if you have a relly low cost source of material. I am not saying that it is not possible but at $50-$120 per ton can burning hay really be cost-effective.

Bill G

 

[bwalker]

Gopher, you have a link for Garn?

 

[Crofter]

Bill G. The big bale burner used a forced draft. Enough so that the ash was blown out. The hot combustion gasses were taken through a more or less conventional tube heat exchanger. Yoour right about hay not burning very well compared to stovewood, but the theoretical btu. content of cellulose products like hay or wood, barring the moisture content is pretty much in line with their weight. It was used in a combined pig farm greenhouse compllex and was being funded by some government grants.Around here there are abandoned farms that you can cut for the taking. If you can get some source of rough or unusable wood (or hay) thats when the water boilers really get attractive. Overall they are kind of wood hogs, but it sure is nice to have that safety hazard out in the yard instead of in the house.

Frank

 

[django]

WOW!!

Speaking of bio-mass, hows 14 tons of sand for ya??
http://www.hahsa.com/
Sheesh.


Bill G, BW, etc.... Heres a link to Hydrofire, I believe it is a Central Boiler product, but at a lower price point.
http://www.hydro-fire.com/main.html

 

[Bill G]

Crofter,

Are you kidding, abandoned farms ? Who owns them and why are they not being farmed. I realize the growing season is short and the winters are harsh but so are some of the best cattle grazing areas in the US.

Bill

 

[Crofter]

HAHSA Furnace

Django: I find that on the above installation interesting. I would like to know more without springing for the $40.00 US to see the plans. Do you know any more about it. I have literally and figuratively been head first in the regular ones doing emergency repairs because of firebox corrosion.

Bill G; yes there are small farms growing up with brush around here. Marginal drainage, and other problems but probably main reason is the old folks are retired and the kids are gone to the cities. Not a lot of money in beef, take a long time to recover the cosst of new fencing. I raise enough to fill my freezer and sell a couple of sides to friends, but it wouldn't pay the bills.

Frank

 

[django]

Crofter,
I don't know any more than what the link tells on the HASHA.
I'm not sure I want to.

 

[django]

Garn Link

http://www.dectra.net/garn/
Looks very pricey, but very slick. 2000gal. water capacity!
How's that for a "Heat Flywheel, Crofter?

 

[bwalker]

It has a natural draft right. If so i dont see how it would be worth a darn. Alst steel construction.

 

[django]

What stove are you refering to?

 

[bwalker]

The Garn.

 

[django]

Garn

Ben,
Garn has a powered draft. Or induced if you prefer. It has NO natrual draft. The fan is on, or off with the system closed. If you download their movie. ( It's LOOONG) There is some decent footage of it. The principal behind it is completely different then what we have been talking about so far, With a Garn, you start a new fire every day, and burn it completely, all at one burn cycle. This heats an enormous amont of water, up to 190*@ 3200 gal. This is then an enormous heat sink you pull off from to heat your space. I am guessing that the fire box is relatively small to prevent having more wood than the system can absorb. I did some math and the 2000 gal model, heated up to 190* and cooled down to 140 in 24 hr. uses about 800,000 BTU. That is not enough to heat my leaky old house when it is really cold, but most homes it will. I think it is a really neat burner setup, very efficient comparably. I just can't imagine what one costs. As a side note, don't be too prejudiced against mild steel stoves. If you do a little maint. ( most don't) a steel stove of good design will last many years. Eyolf has had a central boiler stove for 10 years. That's pretty good. But he cleans and oils it. Just like your supposed to. "True" Stainless( like 316, and to a lesser extent 304) has nickel in it and has poor heat transfer. A box made from 316 would "never" corrode", but heat transfer suffers consideraby.
. Even with "stainless" fireboxes, most manufacturers don't warrant their fireboxes past 10 years. There is more that goes on in there than "corrosion" to ruin a firebox.
Have fun'
Django

 

[Gopher]

Garn

Next time I get up to the sawmill, I'll try and remember to bring the digital camera and get some shots of the whole system there. Clyde Samsel has put much time and money into this system (he has had others in the past), so I believe the principals behind the unit are sound. Also, knowing Clyd fairly well, I don't think he would spend the additional dollars if he didn't think it was worth it.

When I purchased my Heatmor (5000sq.ft. capacity) in 1998, the unit cost was around $4000. I ran 1"copper all over in the house and added a few more valves and a diversion around the plenum (for air conditioning purposes), so I had about $5900 into it.

The last time I checked into a Garn (of what I believe would be the unit I may want or need) I thought the price for the boiler unit was somewhere in the vicinity of $7000 (I'd have to check on that one though). It appears to me that one can do it for less, but that the Garn seems a decent buy even at a higher price. So far, I have liked what I have seen from Garn. I think with proper maintenance and care (as django points out), just about any unit can serve a useful and good life.

Gopher