Crofter
Addicted to ArboristSite
I think Ben has the solution. The heavy pieces risk doing damage when they drop in anyway; The last thing you want on one of them suckers is a leak. I have been headfirst in a few of them; stinky job!
Outdoor wood stoves
- Thread starter django
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Tree co, Couple of things. The garn isnt a outdoor wood boiler per se. Also quality boiler doesnt smoke that much as long as you match the size of the unit to your hating need and you fill it with seaoned wood twice per day instead of once.
With that said I fill mine once per day, many times with green wood.The only time it smoke bad is when you put a load of logs in that are snow ice covered.
FWIW I think the smoke comments come form the old style boilers without forced air drafts and from the the designs like central boiler that do not use a firebrick liner.
With that said I fill mine once per day, many times with green wood.The only time it smoke bad is when you put a load of logs in that are snow ice covered.
FWIW I think the smoke comments come form the old style boilers without forced air drafts and from the the designs like central boiler that do not use a firebrick liner.
IndyIan
ArboristSite Operative
Just read the whole thread, lots of good information.
I looked at outdoor boilers and found that they are not for me.
A new 1800 sqft house just doesn't have the heat load to require one.
Most smoke alot especially if burning continuously all day but damped down. Lots of smoke means lots of lost btu's, which means I need to load that much more wood. A guy at http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outbobpen.htm measured his output efficiency at 22%... The woodstove we are putting in has an efficiency of 70% so I need less than 1/3 the wood. Check out the rest of the site as well, it has some good information. The same guy added fire brick and a basic secondary combustion chamber and got his measured efficiency to 50%. Why his boiler doesn't come that way from the factory is a mystery to me.
The only wood boiler we seriously considered was the TARM. It's not meant for outdoors but thats a plus since its certified for indoors and actually has to meet some standards of efficiency and safety, alot outdoor ones do not meet any standards. Check out www.tarmusa.com
Ian
I looked at outdoor boilers and found that they are not for me.
A new 1800 sqft house just doesn't have the heat load to require one.
Most smoke alot especially if burning continuously all day but damped down. Lots of smoke means lots of lost btu's, which means I need to load that much more wood. A guy at http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outbobpen.htm measured his output efficiency at 22%... The woodstove we are putting in has an efficiency of 70% so I need less than 1/3 the wood. Check out the rest of the site as well, it has some good information. The same guy added fire brick and a basic secondary combustion chamber and got his measured efficiency to 50%. Why his boiler doesn't come that way from the factory is a mystery to me.
The only wood boiler we seriously considered was the TARM. It's not meant for outdoors but thats a plus since its certified for indoors and actually has to meet some standards of efficiency and safety, alot outdoor ones do not meet any standards. Check out www.tarmusa.com
Ian
I havent had any of the issue mentioned in the link and fwiw my boiler will go 24 hours on a fill provided you really pack the wood in it. I think one of the problems with these units is that there are too many crap brands on the market. You reallly have to do your research.
Johnboy
ArboristSite Lurker
reconsider the Garn
I've read the posts on outdoor boilers and have spent several months researching them. Obviously all the discussions about too much smoke, inefficiency..etc. have been had and it's doubtful I can change the mind of anyone.
I'm very seriously thinking of buying a Garn unit....Ok, I'm actually going to order one next week once all of the pricing comes in.
I think some of the earlier dismissing of this unit might have been a bit short-sighted (I don't mean to poke at anyone..just couldn't think of any other word there). I've had a chance to look at and touch one of these units and got to watch it burn. I have to say this is one well engineered unit. The fella who invented this really had it going on. I've been obsessed with heating with wood via a mass storage system. We've looked at a bunch of the high efficiency gasification (secondary burn) systems and have been quite impressed. I love the idea of burning full throttle and storing the heat for later use (the reasons I love this should be obvious). Just think about it, these units can raise 2000 gallons of water by 30 degress with minimal amounts of wood. They are rated to direct vent out the side of the house and you can hold your hand right in front of the exaust without burning it. When I looked at this unit, the exhaust was 100% clear, no smoke!! We have seen units from EKO & HS Tarm and were looking at setting up one of these units with mass storage tank (buried underground) until I saw the Garn.
I understand the up front cost seems hi (ok, really hi) but there are units in our area that have been running for 20 years. Now...I want to emphasize that I don't mean to matter-of-factly diss the outdoor units that have become popular but I've seen a number of them that have popped up lately and can't help but think, that I'd bet the farm, the business, my Packer tickets..that these units will not be running in 20 years. We have one in our neighborhood that was new last fall and after 3/4 of a winter, this thing looks like it's a hundred years old. Completely soot and creosote covered. This guy is on pace to burn 30 cords to heat his house and small shop and has trouble keeping even moderate water temps. And this is a name-brand unit (mentioned previously in this thread but I won't go there) YIKES!!!
Anyway..I'm convinced that the use of a Garn, with it's mass storage and gasification chamber will cut wood consumption mightily. While I am a world class wood scrounge, and I have quite a bit of wood on my own properties..I don't consider it to be "free". My last year's LP bill was $1,800 and I haven't even started to heat the 1800 sq.ft. addition that we have added to the house. Assuming LP costs will continue to rise and that my of consumption will increase, even a $12,000 install cost doesn't take long to recoup.
Anyway..again I don't mean to diss anyone but I think there is sufficient efficiency of wood consumption and reason to believe that the lifespan of a Garn will outlast 2, maybe 3 of some of the run-of-the-mill outdoor units I've seen that they might be worth a look. Mass storage is the way to make wood heat work.
I have no $$ affiliation with Garn or any of it's dealers. Just hopelessly obsessed with the concept. Wish me luck.
johnboy
I've read the posts on outdoor boilers and have spent several months researching them. Obviously all the discussions about too much smoke, inefficiency..etc. have been had and it's doubtful I can change the mind of anyone.
I'm very seriously thinking of buying a Garn unit....Ok, I'm actually going to order one next week once all of the pricing comes in.
I think some of the earlier dismissing of this unit might have been a bit short-sighted (I don't mean to poke at anyone..just couldn't think of any other word there). I've had a chance to look at and touch one of these units and got to watch it burn. I have to say this is one well engineered unit. The fella who invented this really had it going on. I've been obsessed with heating with wood via a mass storage system. We've looked at a bunch of the high efficiency gasification (secondary burn) systems and have been quite impressed. I love the idea of burning full throttle and storing the heat for later use (the reasons I love this should be obvious). Just think about it, these units can raise 2000 gallons of water by 30 degress with minimal amounts of wood. They are rated to direct vent out the side of the house and you can hold your hand right in front of the exaust without burning it. When I looked at this unit, the exhaust was 100% clear, no smoke!! We have seen units from EKO & HS Tarm and were looking at setting up one of these units with mass storage tank (buried underground) until I saw the Garn.
I understand the up front cost seems hi (ok, really hi) but there are units in our area that have been running for 20 years. Now...I want to emphasize that I don't mean to matter-of-factly diss the outdoor units that have become popular but I've seen a number of them that have popped up lately and can't help but think, that I'd bet the farm, the business, my Packer tickets..that these units will not be running in 20 years. We have one in our neighborhood that was new last fall and after 3/4 of a winter, this thing looks like it's a hundred years old. Completely soot and creosote covered. This guy is on pace to burn 30 cords to heat his house and small shop and has trouble keeping even moderate water temps. And this is a name-brand unit (mentioned previously in this thread but I won't go there) YIKES!!!
Anyway..I'm convinced that the use of a Garn, with it's mass storage and gasification chamber will cut wood consumption mightily. While I am a world class wood scrounge, and I have quite a bit of wood on my own properties..I don't consider it to be "free". My last year's LP bill was $1,800 and I haven't even started to heat the 1800 sq.ft. addition that we have added to the house. Assuming LP costs will continue to rise and that my of consumption will increase, even a $12,000 install cost doesn't take long to recoup.
Anyway..again I don't mean to diss anyone but I think there is sufficient efficiency of wood consumption and reason to believe that the lifespan of a Garn will outlast 2, maybe 3 of some of the run-of-the-mill outdoor units I've seen that they might be worth a look. Mass storage is the way to make wood heat work.
I have no $$ affiliation with Garn or any of it's dealers. Just hopelessly obsessed with the concept. Wish me luck.
johnboy
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If he is using 30 cords and doesnt have warm water than he has problems with stove sizing, heat exchange, or transient losses.
Mange
Addicted to ArboristSite
All wood furnests smoke in the beginning, till the temps are right.
My furnest has a ceramic tube that gets hot very quick. it pulls down the fire and burn it completely.When burning correct the flames should be bright and slightly blue.
Smoke temp after furnest 250-300c. Not more.
To high temp then furnest is too slow picking up the heat.
To low, not correct temps and there will be smoke.
My furnest has a ceramic tube that gets hot very quick. it pulls down the fire and burn it completely.When burning correct the flames should be bright and slightly blue.
Smoke temp after furnest 250-300c. Not more.
To high temp then furnest is too slow picking up the heat.
To low, not correct temps and there will be smoke.
Johnboy
ArboristSite Lurker
What brand is that? Sounds like it has the secondary burn that I have mentioned.
thanks.
jb
thanks.
jb
Johnboy
ArboristSite Lurker
Yes, resale would be an issue to be considered. We are in the position where we have built our property the way we want it, with outbuildings, radiant in-floor heat..etc with the intention of staying here for the long haul. I would never recommend any type of these hi-tech systems to anyone considering reselling their house anytime soon. While I'm sure there are a few that would die for a place like mine, many would be spooked off.
pipeboy
ArboristSite Lurker
hello everyone...i only arrived here after a lengthy google search on outdoor wood boilers. i am looking into getting one probably next year. i already have hot water heat in my home and in fact already have an indoor wood boiler in the basement, but the wife's just not getting into...the dust...smoke smell...and the coolest thing is that when i get the fire died down just a little and she turns on the dryer or bathroom fan, yup you guessed it it sucks the draft back into the house. So outdoor i go. i was thinking of making one like Django did...but it seems like a lot of time to spend on a maybe. I know i could make it work, i am a pipefitter after all, but you know how it is after you build something, you always say "well i wish i would've done it like this or that". so with that being said what do people think of the classic by central boiler?? i know that they claim to be the biggest...but are they the best? how much oversizing do you want to do...i mean eventually i'll have a 200 ft. driveway with snow melt in it (no more shoveling...snow blowing!! yeah!!) plus the house and i already made the side arm heater for the dom. hot water. just lookng for info and new ideas...always looking for a better way!
Johnboy
ArboristSite Lurker
Well it sounds like you're just getting started. There are so many things to consider and no one system is right for everyone. Some people have gobs of excess wood and don't mind shoveling wood in day and night only to see a lot of it go up the smokestack.
I'd sure encourage you to talk to a lot of people to get different ideas including the use of some sort of heat storage system. This applies even more since you have a lot of hot water heat already. You pbbly run much lower water temps so a storage system would be ideal for you. You can (probably have) read my lengthy post on this subject so there's no use rehashing that.
Anyway..good luck. Also, you're not too far from the Garn wood hot water system that I got to look at (referenced in my previous post). Only 150 miles. I'd encourage you to take a look. Contact me offline if you want more info.
no financial affiliations. I'm hoping to order mine within a week since I just finally got all of the pricing I needed.
cheers
jb..down the road in Baraboo.
I'd sure encourage you to talk to a lot of people to get different ideas including the use of some sort of heat storage system. This applies even more since you have a lot of hot water heat already. You pbbly run much lower water temps so a storage system would be ideal for you. You can (probably have) read my lengthy post on this subject so there's no use rehashing that.
Anyway..good luck. Also, you're not too far from the Garn wood hot water system that I got to look at (referenced in my previous post). Only 150 miles. I'd encourage you to take a look. Contact me offline if you want more info.
no financial affiliations. I'm hoping to order mine within a week since I just finally got all of the pricing I needed.
cheers
jb..down the road in Baraboo.
John, How is restarting a fire everyday any easier than loading the firebox once a day? Can a tarm or simular burn low quality/green wood, trash, used oil, tires,etc like a wood boiler?
The problems most people run into with excessive wood use and smoke are mainly caused by improper sizing and poor design. Pipeguy, Save you money and by another brand besides a classic.
Tarms and the like are great, but starting a fire everday is a pain as is making sure your fuel wood is very well seasoned and off good qaulity. not to mention the fact of finding a area big enough to place the massive storage tank.
As a side note I wonder how well a tarm would work in -20 weather? Would more than 1 fire per day be needed then?
The problems most people run into with excessive wood use and smoke are mainly caused by improper sizing and poor design. Pipeguy, Save you money and by another brand besides a classic.
Tarms and the like are great, but starting a fire everday is a pain as is making sure your fuel wood is very well seasoned and off good qaulity. not to mention the fact of finding a area big enough to place the massive storage tank.
As a side note I wonder how well a tarm would work in -20 weather? Would more than 1 fire per day be needed then?
Johnboy
ArboristSite Lurker
Like I said in my original post, all of the discussions about pollution, smoky yards, angry neighbors and the amount of wood you need to burn have been had and it's unlikely I'll change anyone's mind...evidenced by this last post.
Everyone's different..there are people, hard to believe, that follow the laws and have consideration to their neighbors and don't (won't) do things like burn tires and used oil. I do understand the internet is a big place and laws vary, but burning tires and used oil is not legal where I live. I am very glad about that.
Everyone has different access to different amounts and types of wood so no one solution is right for everyone. Everyone has different physical considerations and amount of space for storage and such. For me(FOR ME, at my house, in my situation, with my access to good firewood, with my large existing outbuilding and my system which requires only low-temp water....etc!!!!), there are so many things wrong with low fire stoves that I can't even begin to list them, what's the point? I am just offering a different idea to someone who was looking for different ideas.
cheers
jb in bboo
Everyone's different..there are people, hard to believe, that follow the laws and have consideration to their neighbors and don't (won't) do things like burn tires and used oil. I do understand the internet is a big place and laws vary, but burning tires and used oil is not legal where I live. I am very glad about that.
Everyone has different access to different amounts and types of wood so no one solution is right for everyone. Everyone has different physical considerations and amount of space for storage and such. For me(FOR ME, at my house, in my situation, with my access to good firewood, with my large existing outbuilding and my system which requires only low-temp water....etc!!!!), there are so many things wrong with low fire stoves that I can't even begin to list them, what's the point? I am just offering a different idea to someone who was looking for different ideas.
cheers
jb in bboo
Sad? Hardly where do you think all the tires and used oil you consume go?
Many of the tires are ground and burnt in cogeneration plants and the used oil is many times burnt in shop style heaters.
John boy, is right there are laws the prohibit you from burning tires in the open, but when done in a furnace It may or may not be legal. Not that I would lose sleep if it where illegal. Much liek I dont lose sleep over driving 5mph over the limit.
In actuallity if done right tires dont smoke any more than woods does. What you do is shut the power off to the boiler which allows the water temp to drop. When the temp is at about 100 degrees you put a layer of dry, soft wood like pine, construction waste, cedar, etc. Then you load the tires which you cut into pieces. Shut the door hit the power switch and viola instant btu's. Since the water temp is so low the tires are combusted before the forced draft fan kicks off and as a result they dont smoke much more than anything else. I do the same thing with used oil excpet that I put the oil into a retechangular shaped steel container with a open top. This allows the oil to burn with out leaking out into the ash pan.
Many of the tires are ground and burnt in cogeneration plants and the used oil is many times burnt in shop style heaters.
John boy, is right there are laws the prohibit you from burning tires in the open, but when done in a furnace It may or may not be legal. Not that I would lose sleep if it where illegal. Much liek I dont lose sleep over driving 5mph over the limit.
In actuallity if done right tires dont smoke any more than woods does. What you do is shut the power off to the boiler which allows the water temp to drop. When the temp is at about 100 degrees you put a layer of dry, soft wood like pine, construction waste, cedar, etc. Then you load the tires which you cut into pieces. Shut the door hit the power switch and viola instant btu's. Since the water temp is so low the tires are combusted before the forced draft fan kicks off and as a result they dont smoke much more than anything else. I do the same thing with used oil excpet that I put the oil into a retechangular shaped steel container with a open top. This allows the oil to burn with out leaking out into the ash pan.
Does a tarm or like burn at the same efficiancy as a power plant? Not sad, just practicle.
The perception that tires brun with aloty of smoke is from the practice of brunign them in open air. When burnt in the manner I described they smoke very little and like the article says I would rather get the BTU's out of them than have them go to the landfill.
If I had any tires to burn I would capture a video of it to show you, but I really only need to dispose of tires every few years when my truck and wifes car requires new ones. I dont seek out tires or oil to burn, but if I have it on hand I use it. I also will burn alot of junk wood like Hemlock, Willow and Aspen. I heated my house this fall on Hemlock and other softwoods I got from doing a habitat improvement project on my property. I have a dump load of Lombardi Poplar to pick up next week thats going in the boiler. Crappy wood as far as fuels goes, but its free. Something that cant be said of the $5-600 dollars of unrenewble propane I would burn per month as the alternative.
If I had any tires to burn I would capture a video of it to show you, but I really only need to dispose of tires every few years when my truck and wifes car requires new ones. I dont seek out tires or oil to burn, but if I have it on hand I use it. I also will burn alot of junk wood like Hemlock, Willow and Aspen. I heated my house this fall on Hemlock and other softwoods I got from doing a habitat improvement project on my property. I have a dump load of Lombardi Poplar to pick up next week thats going in the boiler. Crappy wood as far as fuels goes, but its free. Something that cant be said of the $5-600 dollars of unrenewble propane I would burn per month as the alternative.
pipeboy
ArboristSite Lurker
wow you miss out on 4 days of conversation and you really do miss out on a lot here!! Well i don't know about having stockpiles of wood, but after pricing it out i can have 10 cords of red oak delivered in 8 ft. lengths for $750
i currently pay $425 a month for the four coldest months to heat my 1400 sq. ft. home. the guy that built this place wasn't very trusting of the fuel delivery system out here and wanted all electric. i like the feel of radiant heat but am tired of paying polk burnett elec coop half of my mortgage every month. so efficient or not if all i have to do is whip out the stihl, cut and split some wood (with my wood splitter that i made my self!)...i guess i'd rather have the money and get some excercise cutting and stacking!! even if i did burn all 10 cords in 5-6 months it would still only take me 5-6 years to pay myself back...i don't think that's too shabby!
so why not the classic?? that is the one that i was leaning toward...i like the fact that the on that i eventually would need has 3 take offs...1 for house 1 for garage and shed and 1 for the snow melt system that i am going to put in when i can afford to pour a driveway(hate class 5) plus i have a dealer right here in somerset!!
alright and just to set the record straight on powerplant efficiency!!! as i am a pipefitter by trade i have spent my fair share of time in power plants and refineries and believe you me after you get done working in these places it makes you wonder why electricity/gas is so cheap!!! these companies throw more material away than i could ever dream of using...it's sad really.
i currently pay $425 a month for the four coldest months to heat my 1400 sq. ft. home. the guy that built this place wasn't very trusting of the fuel delivery system out here and wanted all electric. i like the feel of radiant heat but am tired of paying polk burnett elec coop half of my mortgage every month. so efficient or not if all i have to do is whip out the stihl, cut and split some wood (with my wood splitter that i made my self!)...i guess i'd rather have the money and get some excercise cutting and stacking!! even if i did burn all 10 cords in 5-6 months it would still only take me 5-6 years to pay myself back...i don't think that's too shabby!
so why not the classic?? that is the one that i was leaning toward...i like the fact that the on that i eventually would need has 3 take offs...1 for house 1 for garage and shed and 1 for the snow melt system that i am going to put in when i can afford to pour a driveway(hate class 5) plus i have a dealer right here in somerset!!
alright and just to set the record straight on powerplant efficiency!!! as i am a pipefitter by trade i have spent my fair share of time in power plants and refineries and believe you me after you get done working in these places it makes you wonder why electricity/gas is so cheap!!! these companies throw more material away than i could ever dream of using...it's sad really.
Classics have a less the great reoutation as far as quality goes. When i was making my buying decision a few years ago more than a few people steered me away from them. BTW go with a stainless steel stove, no matter what any of the salesman tell you. The mild steel furnaces rust out.
BTW I bout a heatmore, because it was made with a decent grade of stainless. had the best warranty in the business, and was a semi closed sytem so adding water perodicly is not needed.
BTW I bout a heatmore, because it was made with a decent grade of stainless. had the best warranty in the business, and was a semi closed sytem so adding water perodicly is not needed.
Most of the information I ran across was 4 to 7 years old. Why? In 2001 out of 281 million tires taken out of use, 115 million were burned . About 1/2 were burned in cement plant kilns. The tires are burned at very high temps to destroy the toxic chemicals in tires. They also utilize secondary burners, exhaust scrubbers and baghouse filtering systems to further reduce pollutants. Could not find any info that would lead me to believe someone could safely burn tires in an outdoor wood furnace designed for home or small building heating.
Ray
Ray
Dan, if the baove is any indication of the qaulity of info over at Woodheat.org, I would take what the say there with ahuge grain of salt. The above is absolutley false. Heatmore actually sells a waste oil add on type burner for their wood boilers. Just about every auto repair shop, trucking company and logging company up here has a waste oile burner in their shop.
BTW I aslo found the burnign trash piece laughable. Obviously the author isnt aware of the plethora of nasty chemicals found in wood.
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