Looks like Oregon chipper chain to me. You will have to find NOS ('new: old stock') or used chains from collectors on sites like this, eBay, etc. There are parts floating around.
Philbert
Philbert's Chain Salvage Challenge
- Thread starter Philbert
- Start date
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Looks like Oregon chipper chain to me. You will have to find NOS ('new: old stock') or used chains from collectors on sites like this, eBay, etc. There are parts floating around.
Philbert
Yeah, sorry, don't know why I said Stihl . . . it's Oregon chain.
Not Really a 'Challenge'
These chains arrived at 'Philbert's No-Kill Chain Shelter', looking to be re-homed. Just a bit grungy, and some guys don't like low-kickback chain.
Cleaned them in the conventional manner with a commercial degreaser (no ashes this time!):
One surprise: it does not show in the photos, but the second chain from the top had some areas of rust underneath the grease, and about 9 of 50 links are frozen. Some could loosen up pretty easily with penetrating oil, and a little movement. Two sections have a bit heavier rust that might be weak. This is a fairly common chain (Oregon 90VG), so I can save the good sections as 'donor links', or shorten the loop down to fit my pole pruner (34 drive links) for the cost of a few pre-sets.
WINNER? Philbert! Got some usable low-profile chains.
LESSONS?
- You can't tell what you have until you clean it!
Philbert
These chains arrived at 'Philbert's No-Kill Chain Shelter', looking to be re-homed. Just a bit grungy, and some guys don't like low-kickback chain.
Cleaned them in the conventional manner with a commercial degreaser (no ashes this time!):
One surprise: it does not show in the photos, but the second chain from the top had some areas of rust underneath the grease, and about 9 of 50 links are frozen. Some could loosen up pretty easily with penetrating oil, and a little movement. Two sections have a bit heavier rust that might be weak. This is a fairly common chain (Oregon 90VG), so I can save the good sections as 'donor links', or shorten the loop down to fit my pole pruner (34 drive links) for the cost of a few pre-sets.
WINNER? Philbert! Got some usable low-profile chains.
LESSONS?
- You can't tell what you have until you clean it!
Philbert
Scuffed Scratcher
I wanted some pieces of scratcher chain just to show people. This loop was fairly clean (especially compared to the piece in Post #133!), with no apparent rust. It does have significant side abrasion, as noted on the cutter side plates and the rivets.
I don't really know how to properly sharpen scratcher chain. This one has four different cutters: Right side cutter; Middle-Right raker; Middle-Left raker; and Left side cutter. I presume that they need to be jointed (same height) as well as filed for cutting edges. But the abrasion on the outside cutters looks like it would require a good part of the tooth to be filed/ground back, in order to get a clean bevel at the far, outside edges of the side plates. I don't know if this is possible or practical, so I will clean it up a bit more and keep it as it, for show-and-tell purposes.
More on Scratcher Chain: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/scratcher-chain.271236/
WINNER? Draw. I wanted a chain for display, not for use on a saw - it is alright for that, but probably too worn to run.
LESSONS?
- Some types of damage may be harder to repair than others.
- Sharpening 'vintage' styles of chain is a different skill set than modern cutters.
Philbert
I wanted some pieces of scratcher chain just to show people. This loop was fairly clean (especially compared to the piece in Post #133!), with no apparent rust. It does have significant side abrasion, as noted on the cutter side plates and the rivets.
I don't really know how to properly sharpen scratcher chain. This one has four different cutters: Right side cutter; Middle-Right raker; Middle-Left raker; and Left side cutter. I presume that they need to be jointed (same height) as well as filed for cutting edges. But the abrasion on the outside cutters looks like it would require a good part of the tooth to be filed/ground back, in order to get a clean bevel at the far, outside edges of the side plates. I don't know if this is possible or practical, so I will clean it up a bit more and keep it as it, for show-and-tell purposes.
More on Scratcher Chain: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/scratcher-chain.271236/
WINNER? Draw. I wanted a chain for display, not for use on a saw - it is alright for that, but probably too worn to run.
LESSONS?
- Some types of damage may be harder to repair than others.
- Sharpening 'vintage' styles of chain is a different skill set than modern cutters.
Philbert
Would I 'Lye' to You?
In earlier posts I mentioned that cleaners with sodium hydroxide ('lye') worked fast for cleaning grease off of chains. Lye has commonly been used in oven cleaners, drain cleaners, soap making, bio-diesel production, and (ugh!) certain types of food preparation. 'Red Devil' brand lye used to be readily available at most hardware stores, but is a bit harder to find lately. Food grade lye is available on Amazon and eBay, along with chemical supply houses.
I found a one pound bottle of 'pure lye' in the drain cleaning aisle of a local home center (the one where 'you save BIG money') for under $5, so I decided to try it. It makes me a bit nervous in its pure state, because it is very caustic: it will eat your skin and could cause severe eye damage if splashed. I wore rubber gloves and splash goggles.
I was taught in chemistry class to add the chemicals to the water ('do what you oughta'; add acid/caustic to water'), to minimize splashing, and to start with a weak solution, building to a stronger one, instead of the other way around. So I mixed in 3 teaspoons (1/2 ounce) to a quart of warm water (equals 2 dry ounces per gallon). Had to stir it quite a bit for the beads/crystals to dissolve - avoid splashing! I don't know if the food grade stuff dissolves easier. Swish the chain around, toothbrush action, rinse really well, dry in the oven, re-lube with WD-40.
Worked pretty well, but this chain was not too bad to start with (scratcher chain from post #204, above). Not sure if there are disadvantages to using pure lye, or advantages of the other chemicals in commercial degreasers - maybe they help with other types of dirt or grease? I also guessed at the concentration: one source said use 4 ounces per gallon - I used half of that, and might try even less next time, so that I am not dealing with as caustic of a solution. Hope to get some greasy chains to try again!
WINNER?
- Looks promising for grease.
- Dirt cheap, compared to commercial cleaners.
LESSONS?
- Lots of options for cleaning chains!
In earlier posts I mentioned that cleaners with sodium hydroxide ('lye') worked fast for cleaning grease off of chains. Lye has commonly been used in oven cleaners, drain cleaners, soap making, bio-diesel production, and (ugh!) certain types of food preparation. 'Red Devil' brand lye used to be readily available at most hardware stores, but is a bit harder to find lately. Food grade lye is available on Amazon and eBay, along with chemical supply houses.
I found a one pound bottle of 'pure lye' in the drain cleaning aisle of a local home center (the one where 'you save BIG money') for under $5, so I decided to try it. It makes me a bit nervous in its pure state, because it is very caustic: it will eat your skin and could cause severe eye damage if splashed. I wore rubber gloves and splash goggles.
I was taught in chemistry class to add the chemicals to the water ('do what you oughta'; add acid/caustic to water'), to minimize splashing, and to start with a weak solution, building to a stronger one, instead of the other way around. So I mixed in 3 teaspoons (1/2 ounce) to a quart of warm water (equals 2 dry ounces per gallon). Had to stir it quite a bit for the beads/crystals to dissolve - avoid splashing! I don't know if the food grade stuff dissolves easier. Swish the chain around, toothbrush action, rinse really well, dry in the oven, re-lube with WD-40.
Worked pretty well, but this chain was not too bad to start with (scratcher chain from post #204, above). Not sure if there are disadvantages to using pure lye, or advantages of the other chemicals in commercial degreasers - maybe they help with other types of dirt or grease? I also guessed at the concentration: one source said use 4 ounces per gallon - I used half of that, and might try even less next time, so that I am not dealing with as caustic of a solution. Hope to get some greasy chains to try again!
WINNER?
- Looks promising for grease.
- Dirt cheap, compared to commercial cleaners.
LESSONS?
- Lots of options for cleaning chains!
Rx7man
Cattle Rubbing Post
For freeing rusty stuff, I like putting it in a suitable container (#10 coffee can for chain) and filling it partway with a diesel/oil mix, then pretty much boiling it.. it may catch fire, but that's no big deal if you're prepared for it (not around other flammable stuff).. heat it and cool it a couple times, that'll really get the oil into the chain.
I use this method on old motorcycle drive chains with good success.
I use this method on old motorcycle drive chains with good success.
Basic Chemical Cleaning Families
Following up on the lye, in the post above, this is a nice, easy to follow chart on common cleaning chemicals: mild to strong acids (e.g. rust removal); mild to strong caustics (e.g. degreasing); weak to strong bleaches; mild to strong solvents,; etc:
http://www.maintex.com/page/usage
Helpful in comparing alternatives. In some cases, such as preserving an antique item, starting with the mildest product that might do the job is prudent. In other cases, the user might want to go with the 'nuclear option'. Each chemical may have unique properties as well, such as dissolving aluminum, or paint, or marble, or . . . . ***As always, use with each care, and look for the chemical's 'MDS' (Material Data Sheet - new term for 'MSDS' Material Safety Data Sheet) for harmful effects, cautions, warnings, and what type of protective gear to use.***
I also had an interesting talk with a technical rep for Zep chemicals, who broke common degreasers down into 3 categories or families: caustic/alkali/water based; citrus/D-limonene based; and petroleum/organic based solvents. Each works. Each has advantages and disadvantages (cost, flammability, vapors, disposal, toxicity, adverse reactions, etc.).
He stated that their commercial products (such as the 'purple' degreasers) contain a blend of surfactants/detergents, as well as chemicals that help them work on different types of dirt/soil. And that they are blended to clean well, without being as harsh as some chemicals used by themselves.
Philbert
Following up on the lye, in the post above, this is a nice, easy to follow chart on common cleaning chemicals: mild to strong acids (e.g. rust removal); mild to strong caustics (e.g. degreasing); weak to strong bleaches; mild to strong solvents,; etc:
http://www.maintex.com/page/usage
Helpful in comparing alternatives. In some cases, such as preserving an antique item, starting with the mildest product that might do the job is prudent. In other cases, the user might want to go with the 'nuclear option'. Each chemical may have unique properties as well, such as dissolving aluminum, or paint, or marble, or . . . . ***As always, use with each care, and look for the chemical's 'MDS' (Material Data Sheet - new term for 'MSDS' Material Safety Data Sheet) for harmful effects, cautions, warnings, and what type of protective gear to use.***
I also had an interesting talk with a technical rep for Zep chemicals, who broke common degreasers down into 3 categories or families: caustic/alkali/water based; citrus/D-limonene based; and petroleum/organic based solvents. Each works. Each has advantages and disadvantages (cost, flammability, vapors, disposal, toxicity, adverse reactions, etc.).
He stated that their commercial products (such as the 'purple' degreasers) contain a blend of surfactants/detergents, as well as chemicals that help them work on different types of dirt/soil. And that they are blended to clean well, without being as harsh as some chemicals used by themselves.
Philbert
I must admit that I am still sold on Evapo-Rust. That stuff has performed some miracles on old chains for me. I used to soak in vinegar until I tried it. Vinegar also knocks off rust, but the chrome stays on with Evapo-Rust and it works much faster.
I do know one way that you can kill a chain rather rapidly beyond repair. Lay it in top of a car or truck battery with exposed terminals for an hour or so. One of my logger buddies did that last week by accident. The truck survived--barely. The chain did not.
I do know one way that you can kill a chain rather rapidly beyond repair. Lay it in top of a car or truck battery with exposed terminals for an hour or so. One of my logger buddies did that last week by accident. The truck survived--barely. The chain did not.
'Chain reaction'?
Evapo-Rust (and similar products) only works on rust. It is an alternative to some of the acids discussed. Some of the degreasers are caustics/bases, at the far, other end of the ph scale. As a practical matter, they work together: the Evapo-Rust instructions will tell you to degrease the item first so that the product can reach the rust. Obviously, if you are using a caustic for degreasing, followed by an acid (instead of Evapo-Rust) for de-rusting, you want to rinse well in-between.
I found that Evapo-Rust worked best on surface rust, but I am still happy to use it for that. Naval Jelly (phosphoric acid) says to stay away from chrome. And in one of the first posts in this thread, I lost some chrome with electrolysis, but I am starting to think that in some cases the chrome may already be weakened by corrosion underneath, or due to a poor plating bond.
Philbert
I've also used chains that have had virtually all the chrome removed by acids, such as vinegar. Afterwards, they once again work OK as long as they get enough bar oil, but that's true of any chain.
Problem is, Philbert, the more chains that I save from the bone pile, the longer my new reels of chain last and I never seem to get the opportunity to make and enjoy using a brand new chain.
Problem is, Philbert, the more chains that I save from the bone pile, the longer my new reels of chain last and I never seem to get the opportunity to make and enjoy using a brand new chain.
Good problems to have Edwin!
I understand that some of the racers intentionally remove the chrome from their race chains to get a sharper edge. I would not do that intentionally. And if the chrome comes off several cutters, that loop is likely going into the recycling pile, or may become a donor for tie straps or drive links, if they are rare.
Philbert
I understand that some of the racers intentionally remove the chrome from their race chains to get a sharper edge. I would not do that intentionally. And if the chrome comes off several cutters, that loop is likely going into the recycling pile, or may become a donor for tie straps or drive links, if they are rare.
Philbert
Saved By a Nose!
Not a chain, but 'next to a chain' . . . I got this replacement nose sprocket along with something else, described as 'N.O.S', which I interpreted as 'New, Old Stock' (a common eBay, CraigsList type term).
In fact, it was more like: 'Nose, Obviously Seized', or 'Never Oiled Sprocket' - as the sprocket absolutely would not move. I tried forcing it by hand. I tried tapping the teeth with a small hammer. Nothing. So I assumed that it was rusted in place (the sprocket had a little more surface corrosion before I took this photo). Someone must have left this new, unused sprocket in a damp place for a long time.
It's been slow in the chain department, and I had nothing to lose, so I decided to see if I could free this nose sprocket up without disassembling it. The good news is that the case was already colored black, so I did not have to worry about some of the rust remedies discoloring it.
As always, the first step is to clean the item - the rust removers can't work if they can't reach the metal. I swished it around a bit in some 'SuperClean' degreaser; wiped; rinsed; repeated, and removed a lot of surface grease off of the case, and apparently, from inside. Because, after the cleaning, I got a little bit of movement from the sprocket!
Tap, tap, tap with the small hammer, and it turned more, although, it felt like it was packed with asphalt. Drizzled some '3-In-One' oil between the insides of the case and the sprocket, rotated the sprocket back-and-forth, and it really freed up! Finished off with some 'WD-40' to try and dry up any rinse water that might have been left behind, and I might actually have a functioning nose sprocket!
Apparently, the bearings had been packed with some type of grease that dried out, acting more like a glue than a lubricant. This was not something I could see without disassembling the case.
Now that I know that this is a possibility, the next time (yeah, right) I might try placing the nose sprocket in an ultrasonic cleaner (USC) with some type of degreaser or solvent.
WINNER? Philbert!
LESSONS?
- Cleaning is still the first step!
- Worth experimenting sometimes on 'nothing-to-lose' items.
- Rust is not the only possibility.
Not a chain, but 'next to a chain' . . . I got this replacement nose sprocket along with something else, described as 'N.O.S', which I interpreted as 'New, Old Stock' (a common eBay, CraigsList type term).
In fact, it was more like: 'Nose, Obviously Seized', or 'Never Oiled Sprocket' - as the sprocket absolutely would not move. I tried forcing it by hand. I tried tapping the teeth with a small hammer. Nothing. So I assumed that it was rusted in place (the sprocket had a little more surface corrosion before I took this photo). Someone must have left this new, unused sprocket in a damp place for a long time.
It's been slow in the chain department, and I had nothing to lose, so I decided to see if I could free this nose sprocket up without disassembling it. The good news is that the case was already colored black, so I did not have to worry about some of the rust remedies discoloring it.
As always, the first step is to clean the item - the rust removers can't work if they can't reach the metal. I swished it around a bit in some 'SuperClean' degreaser; wiped; rinsed; repeated, and removed a lot of surface grease off of the case, and apparently, from inside. Because, after the cleaning, I got a little bit of movement from the sprocket!
Tap, tap, tap with the small hammer, and it turned more, although, it felt like it was packed with asphalt. Drizzled some '3-In-One' oil between the insides of the case and the sprocket, rotated the sprocket back-and-forth, and it really freed up! Finished off with some 'WD-40' to try and dry up any rinse water that might have been left behind, and I might actually have a functioning nose sprocket!
Apparently, the bearings had been packed with some type of grease that dried out, acting more like a glue than a lubricant. This was not something I could see without disassembling the case.
Now that I know that this is a possibility, the next time (yeah, right) I might try placing the nose sprocket in an ultrasonic cleaner (USC) with some type of degreaser or solvent.
WINNER? Philbert!
LESSONS?
- Cleaning is still the first step!
- Worth experimenting sometimes on 'nothing-to-lose' items.
- Rust is not the only possibility.
Last summer, a logger gave me seven long bars with worn out tips in really sad shape. He said, "Can you fix these bars? Otherwise I'm out about $900 for new bars. The Stihl bars are rather costly."
Some were wide nose and some not. I fixed them all with new tips for $150, replacing most of them. He saved $750, and all the bars are still in service today. Mission accomplished.
Some were wide nose and some not. I fixed them all with new tips for $150, replacing most of them. He saved $750, and all the bars are still in service today. Mission accomplished.
I have a similar problem with a NOS Remy roller nose. Although it turns I'm afraid it will flat spot if I try to run it as is.
Thanks for your post.
Thanks for your post.
Barracuda Chain and 3-In-One
As with the sprocket nose above, I got a NOS loop of old style PowerSharp chain (a.k.a. 'Barracuda chain') with a large number of stiff links.
No sign of even surface rust.
The classic 3-In-One oil is thin enough, and has some kind of solvent, to seep in between the links, and around the rivets, with a little encouragement.
Used all '3': cleans, lubricates, protects (the label has changed through the years)! No soaking. No degreasing. Links pivot freely now.
Philbert
As with the sprocket nose above, I got a NOS loop of old style PowerSharp chain (a.k.a. 'Barracuda chain') with a large number of stiff links.
No sign of even surface rust.
The classic 3-In-One oil is thin enough, and has some kind of solvent, to seep in between the links, and around the rivets, with a little encouragement.
Used all '3': cleans, lubricates, protects (the label has changed through the years)! No soaking. No degreasing. Links pivot freely now.
Philbert
A before picture of what I call 'fishhook chain'. Looks like it was filed too low with an undersized file.
Next, some whatzit chain.
Can't figure this at all.
Can't figure this at all.
I would say that both chains were 'de-filed'! Might still have some life left after corrective dental surgery!
Philbert
Yes on the first, scrap bucket on the second.
