PILTZ: Master HOT SAW builder (...not)

[fordf150]

standard small spline vs stihl mini spline and the difference in diameter between picco rim and standard 3/8 rim

 

[cobey]

so what i hear is you modified a 041 bar to work as an 095. that's good, but we're talking about the other end, the nose sprocket. in my experience nose sprockets for 3/8" and lo pro don't work with both. am i missing something? thanks.

you can get a 3/8 lo pro nose sprocket on an 041 (small poulan mount) ................ like a wild thing bar..............
with the lo pro it comes to a point where it hits a wall on speed ... but with a reg 3/8 rim and a 16" 041 mount
lo pro bar and a 57 dl , 3/8 .050 lo pro chain it works and cuts, i dont feel like its worth the trouble
for a hotrod saw ( it was faster with big 3/8 race chain) , on a stock saw it kinda cuts like full chisel .325, i timed several cuts with each chain
times were close stihl ps was a little faster than .325 full chisel

 

[CR888]

a

For one, Oregon does not compete with Carlton any more, because they are both owned by Blount here in Portland, Oregon now.

I got into low profile long ago after hearing about it from some of the chainsaw milling people here on AS. They were using Logosol low profile bars on 70cc saws for milling, because of the narrow kerf and because large saws tend to overheat using 3/8s standard B&C for milling. While those saws can oil a long bar, you really have to be careful running that setup because the chain is not designed to deal with that kind of torque. But they ran it. For a very short tirdmeddd Stihl sold large mount Picco bars on the 024, but stopped after about 6 months in the US. Seemingly they did that to avoid liability issues after they figured out that guys were running them on much larger saws. At one time Logosol also sold large mount low profile B&C for Stihl saws for milling, from 16 to 20 inch. The also no longer sell them in the US, also seemingly for liability reason.

I had used low profile on my TH saws, and I switched out my 025/250 small mount saws from .325 to 3/8 Picco/low profile. They ran better and cut faster. I stayed with that setup on those saws. 16" and 18" B&C worked well. I later swapped out my 1123 saws for 026/260 saws, and never looked back. I did a series of tests between .325 and 3/8 std chain on several 026s and they were basically a dead heat. So I flipped all my large mount .325 B&C to 3/8 std. 16" and 18" so that I had all 3/8 std B&C on all my saws. Then I bought a few 211 saws with low profile on them, and got back into Picco chain. Recently I came across a 16" Picco 3003 large mount bar from an 024. I also had a P-7 rim, and I got some PS chain for it at the local Stihl shop. I put it all on my 026/260 hybrid and WHAM! It runs like a dream. They sell that setup in Germany as a kit, but not here in the states.

So folks, my beef here is not with Picco B&C on saws, even large mount saws. There is a place for them, if you have pro style metal bar mounts and an oil pump that can wet the bar. The issue with Piltz, besides all his BS statements that are pure crap, is that he is selling hugely long bars on small homeowner plastic saws and smaller pro saws. He is also advocating using larger rims on those saws with longer bars, which defies basic principles of physics. Picco B&C is great stuff, if you stay within the scope of design specifications. A 16" Picco B&C spins fast and furious with full chisel PS chain on a 026, 260 or 261. A 241 will run it just fine as well. But these 24-32 inch bars are way beyond the design parameters of those smaller saws. Adding even larger rims just puts more strain on the clutch and engine to get more chain speed. Running low profile B&C on larger saws is done, mainly for milling, but be advised that that is also beyond the parameters of that chain's ability to manage the higher levels of torque. A 50cc saw is pretty much the limit of safe use with Picco loops and that is the largest saw I run this stuff on. I also run a much shorter bar than Piltz advocates, and a smaller rim.

No one ever said that low profile does not cut faster than 3/8 standard here. I can and will say the opposite with my 026. I can also say that Picco ran faster than .325 on my 025 saws. The issue is running ridiculously long bars with Picco on smaller saws, as Piltz sells, and running Picco on large saws with long bars that can easily break that chain. Logosol USED to sell Stihl large format low profile bars in the US. No longer. I called them and asked. Stihl western region does not have them either, but there are some Stihl dealers that still have 16" 3003 Picco bars in stock in the Midwest and the eastern states. Baileys also lists them for a small fortune. No one in the states that I am aware of sells a large format 18" or 20" Stihl Picco bar. You may find one on Ebay. They can easily be bought in Europe and the UK though, along with Logosol bars.

As for 3/8 std. (or .325) vs. Picco chain speed, that is not the main reason that Picco/low profile cuts faster. The main reason that low profile cuts faster is that the kerf is narrower. You are cutting less wood, so it cuts faster. The chain speed will be higher because there is less drag.

l think you need to get some veneer calibers and get a bunch of chains and actually measure all the components. You may be surprized at what you find and possibly how standard 3/8 chain has no strength benefit over lo pro chains. Things are different between brands and also old/new chain. I run 20" 404 on my hopped up 660 but l have run PS picco for giggles with good results but l find at some point with enough power....ya just need more chain. My main problem with lo pro is its durability qualities, once you start running it on 50+cc saws in really hard wood you give the cutters and drive tangs a real hard time.

 

[riley1056]

Groan. Holman Trees. He cut 2 MILLION trees in what was it, 20 years time? Gary and I figured it out and he would have to have cut 400 trees a day (250 work days a year) to deck that many trees. That is 50 trees an hour for 20 years straight! No down time. No ice storms. No holidays off. Full 8 hour days. Only 2 weeks vacation a year. Quite the machine! Not... he was banned from AS for life for making threats in PMs to people. He is still a legend in his own mind over on Butch's master blaster site.


Lmao that's some funny ****.

 

[heyduke]

I use narrow kerf on a Husqvarna saw, because it came with it. Cuts fine for my use, but the bar is a bit more flexible, if that matters to the user.

My comments were meant in a general sense - lot of guys want to put 3/8 chain on a saw that came with .325, or put .404 chain on a saw that came with 3/8. It depends on if the saw has the power to pull the larger chain. If it doesn't, it will not cut faster. If it does, smaller chain might never keep up with the saw's potential. There are a few saws that might be 'on the cusp' - could run either chain. Sometimes that depends on the type of cutting: smaller branches might favor the smoother cutting of smaller pitch chain; bucking big logs might benefit from a slightly wider kerf.

JMHO

Philbert

Philbert-

i always pay close attention to your posts and when your observations differ from mine that's fine. i hauled out the old jonsered today. it had been sitting in the back of the shop for more than a year since it was last run. the chain is still timberline sharp but the carb needed serious tuning. the surprise for me is that the bar, which i bought maybe 5 years ago isn't a 20" 095 but a 14". seems like my memory is good for about ten minutes max these days. i cut some cookies with it after tuning, ponderosa pine that was the same diameter as the bar. my camera's batteries were discharged so there is no visual record. generally i was disappointed with the performance, but i'm not used to 50cc saws. except for top handles i mostly use 70cc and up. anyway, a sharp 3/8" chain is hard to beat. maybe we're thinking too much. by the way, i might put 3/8" on a .325 equipped saw because i don't keep a roll of .325.

 

[Rx7man]

I would guess (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that it's the cutting of the grain, the action the side plates do that require the most power, the top plate has more of a peeling action.. So while a narrower kerf is going to require less power, it might not be as much less as you'd think.

It certainly is a balancing act.. between filing type, angles, raker depth, pitch, sprocket size, bar length, saw power, and saw torque, and last but certainly not least, the wood!

 

[Rx7man]

Oh, I was also wondering.. I have an old Winsor 27" 3/8th bar, is that too small for the PP4218? would it be better suited to the Poulan 25cva? I'll take pictures!

 

[Gypo Logger]

Just say no to low pro! Lol

 

[windthrown]

Just say no to low pro! Lol

Mini Me says that is not funny!

 

[heyduke]

I would guess (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that it's the cutting of the grain, the action the side plates do that require the most power, the top plate has more of a peeling action.. So while a narrower kerf is going to require less power, it might not be as much less as you'd think.

It certainly is a balancing act.. between filing type, angles, raker depth, pitch, sprocket size, bar length, saw power, and saw torque, and last but certainly not least, the wood!

where i live we have a saying:

"no esta el saruche. esta el hombre."

"it isn't the saw. it's the man."

 

[Gypo Logger]

Mini Me says that is not funny!
View attachment 409166

Did mini me make the low pro or the picco?
Is mini me Piltz's dad? Lol

 

[Terry Syd]

I would guess (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that it's the cutting of the grain, the action the side plates do that require the most power, the top plate has more of a peeling action.. So while a narrower kerf is going to require less power, it might not be as much less as you'd think.

I think some of the speed of the Narrow Kerf type chains comes from having thinner cutters. A regular .325 chain cutter is 1.25mm thick, while a .325 NK cutter is 1mm thick. An analogy would be using a wood chisel - a thinner wood chisel will go into the wood easier than a thicker wood chisel.

 

[Ray Bell]

Windthrown, drove by the Rose City on my way to Albany today. What unbelievable weather you are having. It must have been close to 70*. Actually turned the ac on in car as the sun beating through the window was toasty, and no I did not stop to look up Piltz!!

 

[Philbert]

I think some of the speed of the Narrow Kerf type chains comes from having thinner cutters. A regular .325 chain cutter is 1.25mm thick, while a .325 NK cutter is 1mm thick. An analogy would be using a wood chisel - a thinner wood chisel will go into the wood easier than a thicker wood chisel.

Narrow kerf blades have been popular in woodworking (e.g. table saws) for some time, for similar reasons. Make the saw perform as if it has more power. Also wastes less of the wood (important if using expensive cabinet grade woods).

Philbert

 

[Rx7man]

I think saving wood is probably the biggest benefit, though if the wood is valuable, you shouldn't be repeatedly cutting it with a chainsaw! My experience has always been that the narrower kerf always got me CLOSER to getting one more piece, but I never EVER got it!

 

[Rx7man]

Oh, and next bagged out straight-gassed 60cc saw that comes through here is going to get a nice 16" .325 NK chain and flogged at an auction.. no one can tell it isn't making any power, it's still cutting!

 

[windthrown]

Windthrown, drove by the Rose City on my way to Albany today. What unbelievable weather you are having. It must have been close to 70*. Actually turned the ac on in car as the sun beating through the window was toasty, and no I did not stop to look up Piltz!!

Yah, I threatened to move to California last year with my cat, because it was so cold here last year with the Arctic Vortex. This year California has come to Oregon. We had the warmest October, December, January and February on record this year. Lowest snowpack ever recorded this year in the Cascades. It was 61 here today. Supposed to get into the 70s here this weekend. Best year I can ever remember here by a long shot. Next best was about 10 years ago when I moved in with my ex.

As for the PiltzTard, just flip him off as you drive by. Stop at Madsens up in WA instead.

 

[olyman]

That hurt Oly.

wasn't speaking about you at all,,and you know it....

 

[windthrown]

Don't worry about it Oly. SS has a hide as thick as uranium depleted tank armor.

 

[olyman]

Don't worry about it Oly. SS has a hide as thick as uranium depleted tank armor.

ruuhhhuummmmbaaaaaaa~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!