Please check my square grinder wheel specs - considering a cbn wheel

[Philbert]

This is on the Bailey's site: Bailey's - CBN Wheel Cleaning Stick

No description provided. Is 'cleaning' a better word than 'dressing'? Are you trying to freshen the abrasive or just clean out gunk in-between the abrasive particles?

Philbert

 

[B_Turner]

This is on the Bailey's site: Bailey's - CBN Wheel Cleaning Stick

No description provided. Is 'cleaning' a better word than 'dressing'? Are you trying to freshen the abrasive or just clean out gunk in-between the abrasive particles?

Philbert

I was using the term dressing as the generic term. With most grinding wheels one is both cleaning and dressing. With the wheels that are not designed to wear away (dbn, diamond, etc) clearly it's really a cleaning stick. And only necessary depending on the material ground away.

With my cbn bench grinding wheels for my turning tools, no cleaning has ever been needed. It cuts the hard steel away very cleanly (creating a fine dark powder that I mostly catch with a magnet).

 

[mdavlee]

Are you saying the top plate angles is around 16 degrees or the underside of the top plate? I'm a little confused about that. I'll be home weekend after next so i can't measure mine until then.

 

[B_Turner]

View attachment 280135

Are you saying the top plate angles is around 16 degrees or the underside of the top plate? I'm a little confused about that. I'll be home weekend after next so i can't measure mine until then.

I am saying is on my currrent wheel the angle between the top of the wheel (horizontal but long bevel up) and the long bevel is 16 degrees. Then the angle between that same top and the edge is around 65 degrees.

A 16 degrees
B 65 degrees

So the inside angle on the cutter ends up around 42 degrees and the other specs I quoted. It is because of the way the cutter is presented to the wheel, not straight but skewed.

 

[Philbert]

I am saying is on my currrent wheel the angle between the top of the wheel (horizontal but long bevel up) and the long bevel is 16 degrees. Then the angle between that same top and the edge is around 65 degrees. . . . . Unfortunately I don't know how to draw lines in a paint program so I'll have to scratch my head on that.

Does this sketch represent your angles (not to scale)?

Philbert

 

[B_Turner]

Does this sketch represent your angles (not to scale)?

Philbert

I just added a hacked one in my above post, yours is better.

Yes, if you specify the one larger angle to be a right angle.

 

[B_Turner]

I just added a hacked one in my above post, yours is better.

Yes, if you specify the one larger angle to be a right angle.

How about you whipping up another one for me with both ends shown.

I could try to annotate it and see if that was good enough to submit it.:msp_rolleyes:

 

[srcarr52]

How about you whipping up another one for me with both ends shown.

I could try to annotate it and see if that was good enough to submit it.:msp_rolleyes:

I have a few CAD packages at my disposal... I could whip up a tech drawling for you.

 

[B_Turner]

​

I have a few CAD packages at my disposal... I could whip up a tech drawling for you.

Any help would be appreciated. I could spend hours just trying to figure out the basics of a tool....

current thinking:

diameter 7 inches
thickness 3/16
arbor 1 inch
angle of longer bevel relative to top 16 degrees
angle of short edge bevel relative to top 65 degrees

width of abrasive on longer bevel from corner where bevels meet .25 inches
thickness of outside (thinnest) edge .095 inches (abrasive on this side as well)

Top of wheel must be flat for at least a diameter of 4 inches.

And any other obvious requirement I am not thinking of. I'd prefer the bottom of the wheel to be flat for at least 4 inches as well, but not critical. Currently my grinder has a big "washer" on the bottom of the wheel, but with a rigid cbn wheel I probably could be fine without it.

 

[srcarr52]

​

Any help would be appreciated. I could spend hours just trying to figure out the basics of a tool....

current thinking:

diameter 7 inches
thickness 3/16
arbor 1 inch
angle of longer bevel relative to top 16 degrees
angle of short edge bevel relative to top 65 degrees

width of abrasive on longer bevel from corner where bevels meet .25 inches
thickness of outside (thinnest) edge .095 inches (abrasive on this side as well)

Top of wheel must be flat for at least a diameter of 4 inches.

And any other obvious requirement I am not thinking of. I'd prefer the bottom of the wheel to be flat for at least 4 inches as well, but not critical. Currently my grinder has a big "washer" on the bottom of the wheel, but with a rigid cbn wheel I probably could be fine without it.

I'm sketching this thing up but your values for the edge lengths/heights are not coming out correct. If I make the short edge 0.095" tall I get the large facet to be 0.336".

View attachment 280142

 

[Philbert]

I have a few CAD packages at my disposal... I could whip up a tech drawling for you.

srcarr52 did much better than me (I was using PowerPoint). I'll let him take it from here . . .


Philbert

 

[srcarr52]

srcarr52 did much better than me (I was using PowerPoint). I'll let him take it from here . . .


Philbert

That is just the sketcher in CATIA. Wait until I spit out an annotated 2 view tech drawling.

 

[B_Turner]

I'm sketching this thing up but your values for the edge lengths/heights are not coming out correct. If I make the short edge 0.095" tall I get the large facet to be 0.336".

View attachment 280142

Looking cool.

I wasn't sure how to specify the upper bevel length as it is not critical. I only specificied the minimum width of the larger bevel that needed abrasive.

The overall bevel length you cite works fine, and like you say is dependent on factors like the edge thickness. I picked .095 out of the air, as typically my wheels end up more like .08.

Was trying to add in some overkill for .404 or whatever (which I don't use). Not quite sure what number to pick there, to be honest. There is such thing as too much edge with which would take out too much cutter.

All you really need is enough width to cut the side cutter on the chain tooth to below where the action is. The rest gets removed when I grind out the gullets from time to time.

 

[srcarr52]

Looking cool.

I wasn't sure how to specify the upper bevel length as it is not critical. I only specificied the minimum width of the larger bevel that needed abrasive.

The overall bevel length you cite works fine, and like you say is dependent on factors like the edge thickness. I picked .095 out of the air, as typically my wheels end up more like .08.

Was trying to add in some overkill for .404 or whatever (which I don't use). Not quite sure what number to pick there, to be honest. There is such thing as too much edge with which would take out too much cutter.

All you really need is enough width to cut the side cutter on the chain tooth to below where the action is. The rest gets removed when I grind out the gullets from time to time.

I'll measure mine tonight and get the final numbers for the short side height as that is the critical dimension. If it gets too long you can't get into the cutter without hitting the raker.

 

[B_Turner]

I'll measure mine tonight and get the final numbers for the short side height as that is the critical dimension. If it gets too long you can't get into the cutter without hitting the raker.

I'd be interested with what that measurement ends up on your wheel. Our grinders present the chain to the wheel a fair bit differently.

My first thought was adding in some as it looked like that much would still work on my own grinder, but my revisted thinking is maybe specifying that height (actually I was originally measuring the width of the bevel and I like your way of measuring better) is .085 instead of .095.

Still plenty of side cutter cut away and less chance of complication on another grinder if it ended up on one.

Like I said, how I dress my own wheels in terms of that thickness varies but it is usually closer to .08 anyway. But no harm in .085.

So again, my new tentative spec would be .085 height of the outer (shorter) bevel instead of .095.

I just did a test of a soft steel on my cbn bench grinder that has abrasive on two sides and it did seem to cut a fairly clean groove where they met.

I am quite happy with my blue ceramic wheels for square, but the idea of a cooler running, faster cutting wheel that doesn't need dressing (maybe cleaning) seems appealing. Thanks, Bill

edit: the thinking in regard to specifying a min of .25 inches of abrasive on the long bevel is that I only really need less than .020 so that gives them a buffer in case toward the inner edge the abrasive is not as even. And no reason to put abrasive on the whole upper bevel of course.

Also feel free to PM me or email at any point.

 

[Philbert]

That is just the sketcher in CATIA. Wait until I spit out an annotated 2 view tech drawling.

I'll be more impressed if you can spit it out in CBN on a 3-D printer!

What I liked about this thread is the discussion of specific wheel angles, which I have not seen in the manual for the used Silvey RazurSharp I purchased. Lots of comments on how the angles of the wheel affect the angles on the cutter, but not starting points.

With the CBN type wheel you are apparently losing some of the ability to change the cutter angles in exchange for the durability/consistency etc., so it sounds like you are very satisfied with those cutter angles. Will you still be able to adjust them a bit by changing how the cutters meet the stone?

Thanks.

Philbert

 

[srcarr52]

I am quite happy with my blue ceramic wheels for square, but the idea of a cooler running, faster cutting wheel that doesn't need dressing (maybe cleaning) seems appealing.

I'd be interested in the blue wheel, I sometimes have troubles making it a full side of a 37" or above chain without redressing. For some reason my chains have a tendency to find any rocks or metal even close to where I'm cutting.

Running cooler... so should I put some cooling cuts in the wheel then, like a Dinasaw wheel?

 

[B_Turner]

I'd be interested in the blue wheel, I sometimes have troubles making it a full side of a 37" or above chain without redressing. For some reason my chains have a tendency to find any rocks or metal even close to where I'm cutting.

Running cooler... so should I put some cooling cuts in the wheel then, like a Dinasaw wheel?

In terms of the cooling cuts, I thought about the idea but all the cbn wheels that I"ve seen from this company are simple unslotted carriers so I would be taking on way more than I want to in changing that aspect. This is just a simple test to see what they come up with and how it works out.


And the difference in temps sharpening tools on my bench grinders between ao and cbn is huge, the cbn runs much much cooler (and no dust!).

Blue wheels: I still have to redress the blue wheels in part due to the grease and such that plugs the wheel, but I find they cut much faster and much much cooler and leave a fairly good finish. I have tried pretty much all the 8 inch wheels out there and settled on the blue.

On my 510 with round ground chain the blue wheels are a cutter eating setup for rocked chains. But I don't run round 3/8 much and pretty much leave my 510 setup with a 1/8 inch wheel for smaller chain (which I run alot of too).

I HATED the 8 inch round resinoid wheel that came with my 510. Ran hot, cut slow, etc. But oddly, after talking to Silvey some years ago about all that they sent me a 1/8 inch resinoid wheel that works just fine with the smaller chain. I don't understand why the difference, but I almost never have to dress it and it has sharpened many many chains.

 

[B_Turner]

With the CBN type wheel you are apparently losing some of the ability to change the cutter angles in exchange for the durability/consistency etc., so it sounds like you are very satisfied with those cutter angles. Will you still be able to adjust them a bit by changing how the cutters meet the stone?

Thanks.

Philbert

With my Prosharp all the adjustment in angles is in the dressing stone holders which have 3 possible positions. So downsides to the cbn wheels include can't tweak that angle if it isn't working out and no way to true up how a wheel runs by dressing it.

So you are at the mercy of how the wheel happens to run in your grinder.

The only adjustments left basically is how high the cutter meets the wheel (so the corner of the wheel can meet the inside tip of the cutter) and how much cutter is removed (length).

So getting the angles pretty close to what is working for me know is pretty critical.

 

[Philbert]

I hadn't used the USG square grind in ten years and had lost my original instructions evidently when moving.

Does the USG grinder reverse, or allow you to grind cutters on both sides from the 'outside in', on square ground chain?

Thanks.

Philbert