Poodle tails

[Striker]

We have cleared several house lots this year. We usually remove the trees within 10 to 15 feet of the house perimeter. The woods that we have done most of them in was cut in the past. Most of the regrowth was in the 10 to 12 inche range, around 60 or 70 feet tall.
Being a dense woods most of the trees just have a small tuft of limbs at the top of the tree. To me it looks kind of ridicules. But then I am not smart enough to figger out how to pay for a half a million dollar house either.
We have seen one tree go over in a storm already. I'm just wondering what kind of a root system those trees have and can they stand up when most of their protection from the wind is gone.
Another interesting thing about this woods is the old trees that are left. Mostly old beech trees. Hollow inside. Almost all of them lean towards a house. Job security.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Mattheck in germany did soem study of these failures.

Seems that there is a critical ratio between trunk and hight (really?)

He's found that if the trunk is concidered the value one the 1:30 is nominal. when you get to 1: 50 (1 ft DBH 50 ft tall) you could call the tree a high risk of failure.

He has designed a sighting guage which anyone can use to assess this ratio.

Of course we know it will either fall or die, just because it is stand grown and having inadiquate supportive root plate for being free standing.

A serach on Mattheck..http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/d...m&qcat=web&qkw=mattheck&top=1&start=&ver=4969

Another little interesting factoid, that dovetails nicely with the above; stand grown trees average 3-4 First Order Roots, where open grown trees will average around 7.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Holy Maas-Ulke Batman!

From other models presented i'd say those trees where light starved tall, and not strengthened by wind; then having to with stand wind later in life and getting knocked from non-leveraging vertical pillar to leveraging in the wind lean to compound (wind as a pulling force, and increaser of lever-age) to the 'unexercised' / temepered grown wood-fibre and root systems. In addition to disturbed compressed root area and soil etc.

The Matheck model also rings true, in that the DBH would be leverage against tipping (wider base of triangle, better; especially tall one)

In the discussions that resurfaced of trees as self maximizing / managing systems; i've seen no lights and wonders........ also direct correlations to self werking rigging (hinges strengthened by their challenger etc.). All so steadfastly reaffirming that a fine 50 yr. old live oak in good health, is the most irreplaceable part of many homes i visit. Plants, lawns can even be changed seasonally and do fine, even a house can be thrown up in a year. What would be the total cost of a large tree planted (RatWorld paid $50G i think) then the value of time, support, feeding, establishing and growing out to what was had before?

Still sifting thru Wulke's models of some of this of late, others too. But really keep going over this model/passionate plea for what 'we' violate in altering things that 'know better'; but speak to slow for us to hear:

Originally posted by Mike Maas
You can prune the lower limbs from your mature trees, but it would be best not to.
For many trees having the lower limbs removed marks the beginning of the end of the tree’s life.

Typically, the limbs are removed because it's hard to mow under, so it gets raised six feet. The ground underneath is uneven so soil is tilled in to create a planting bed for new grass. Still too much shade, raise it up six more feet to get sun in there. Now for weekly mowing and the mandatory ramming of the mower into the trunk and soil compaction that goes with it. There will still be grass growing around the base, so get out the weedwacker and girdle the tree while you trim the grass.

Some other things are going on at the same time, the trunk of the tree now fully exposed to hot sunlight and can get sunscald, devastating to a mature tree, especially at the base. The soil will no longer be shaded now so it will get hot and dry which is very bad for roots and the soil microorganisms that used to live there. In their place will be grass, a very aggressive competitor for nutrients and water.

You will be radically changing the environment the tree is growing in. At the same time you are removing live healthy limbs, which is obviously bad for the tree. This new environment is also inviting to increased foot traffic and even cars, trailers and machinery. It's getting less and less like the forest floor around your trees.
If you must trim, do only what you have to, best if done when it's cool out (jan or feb).

Could you achieve your goals by shortening the limbs part way?
Remember, there is no reason to trim a tree all the way around just because you need clearance on one side. Only trim what you have to.

Just to recap, Raising tree crowns cause the following bad effects:
1. Foliage removal
2. Increased soil compaction
3. Decrease benificial microorganisms
4. Increased soil temp. extremes
5. Lower soil nutriant levels
6. Lower soil water
7. Increased chance of sunscald
8. Increased chance of trunk injury
9. Decreased trunk taper
10. Open wounds/ decay
11. Increased competition from plants
12. Decreased organic matter

 

[geofore]

tall trees

Most of the tall spindly trees had larger trees to protect them from wind but you need short trees and brush at the perimeter to get the wind to turn up and go over the tree tops. Removing the perimeter allows the wind to blow right through the trees something they did not see before and did not grow to protect themselves from. Look at treelines on farms, the trunks are oval instead of round and the oval shape (small end) faces into the prevailing wind. The trees grow to withstand the wind by putting the wood where it does the most good (areodynamic). If these trees don't see wind storms like we had this year, in ten years they may be okay but till then you'll have work after the storms. I removed a large maple on a lot so they could put up a house, foundation would remove half the roots and tree would be 4' from new house. We had 70mph winds before they got the house built, the tall spindly maples that were 60' in back of the big maple lost most of the branches facing the wind. "I told you so" I told the builder this would happen if the house did not get built soon. Now I will go back and trim all the broken branches to make the lot look good, more work but it could have been avoided had they not taken July off to go on vacation and built the house to protect the trees.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It may not be possible for the trees to put reaction wood on. The photosynthates are too far away and there is too much space between them and the dase.

This is where "tone wood", the old growth that has 50 or more rings per inch, came from. Tight stands where everything grows straight and tall, and low branches are shed early.

Following that model, diameter growth on these stately trees takes way too long for them to adapt to the changed environment.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
Photosynthates

.... All-write, your frickin'busted now;.....:Eye:.....that mess-spelling stuff is all a hoax...

 

[Stumper]

He could have rendered it in Spydy spelling. i.e. foto-sin-thates.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Hey, wait your turn ('nutha big guy ); can't you see i already got one of ya's as a full time hobby?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

and since I got you ona 1:2 ratio, that is a full time hobby!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh hey JP;

wee wuz jest talking 'bout you;
how good a climber,
How good the GRCS is,
How much better your spilling is,
great avatar,
Snappy Dresser,
great moderator,
able to take a joke.....

etc.

Shoulda been here!:angel:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

What, you and Brian were breaking bread together?

Yup I spill stuff regularly, so you got everything but my wardrobe right. I've got 3 year old Dockers I still wear all the time. Earthtones are my faforite....

 

[Tree Machine]

Bib overalls, or just a bib? OK, enuff JP slanderings. Back on topic.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

But, But......

Uncle Tree Machine.......

All the other kids get to ......

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

One word for Kenny

GerAnimals