portawrap vs. holes in ground?

[Rygel]

OK to start my supervisor is a pure production freak. He would rather trash a yard and have to fix it then take an extra half hour blocking it down.
just an example---- This week a crew (not mine, but I had to go get the logs) we have been working in one of the richer areas of town (lots worth around $100,000 without the house!) and the guys just crashed the yard bad. I mean like 2-3 feet holes and divots and many indentions for felling. My supervisor thinks putting 15 bags of topsoil in the holes then leaving is all we nee to do. To me the fact is maybe we get away with it this time but what if this lady wanted it fixed back to the exact way it was (which to me is how it should be!) we could be talking hundreds just in one yard alone. This isn't including the limbs in a cherry and dogwood that got ripped off.
What i want to do is convince him that going with a block and portawrap is worth the money. Even in the little extra time it takes to complete the tree. So if anyone can assist me in some figures as to (1)how much longer it takes to complete the average tree (2) matience on the extra equipment (3) average money saved using this method. Maybe even some stories i can print and show him where it either helped or hurt. (4)how long the training curve is on the equipment?
If ya have any input that would help please share it as I'm also trying to learn as much as possible about my line of work. Thanks!

 

[Jumper]

Or a GRCS if the bank account is flush. Amazing piece of kit, discussed elsewhere here.

 

[dakota]

There are ways to limit (or at least try to limit) damage to turf and other plants without using extra rigging. I would think that guys doing that much damage would not benefit right away from trying to learn new tricks.

But good for you on recognizing an issue and trying to do something about.

 

[jp hallman]

Precautions to limit excess damage are worth a mint! IF you find yourself in court that's one of the issues the judge will cover extensively. PROVE you go the extra mile and you'll never have to worry. Remember that one customer that won't be happy no matter how the job turns out. Usually a Lawyer or a Doctor. Just looking to get a new landscape job on your dollar. I'm not in the business, don't want to be. But, I've friends that are and their number one complaint is just this issue. Damage to lawns and landscaping that the owner knows beforehand can't be prevented and then acts like a raped ape because it did.

 

[dakota]

Rygel -As an example: In Beranik's "Fundamentals of General Tree Work" he goes into some detail about piecing down trunk wood such that you can get the chunks to lay flat or spear down or a triple-lutz with a half-gainer...

Can't find mine right now but I bet there's a least one person out there with it readily available with a page number...

You might be up against some resistance at work so be ready for some harassment. I've worked with both extremes regarding turf and other damage and my advice would be to lead by example.

 

[clearance]

Rygel, I am with your supervisor, my favorite saying for utility is "clearance, not appearance". JP is right on the money about people trying to scam after they are told the way its going to be. I have done lots of removals by blocking it down firewood size, always in the same spot resulting in damage to one small area. BUT-the example you gave is about logs, big diff. Like Dakota says you can flip logs so they land flat, bet hardly anyone here would try that, I have done it but it is very challenging. More than once I have stuck a log (18'6"-30) in the lawn like a dart. It takes a lot of practice and the tuition can be costly. Once I saw a really good climber flip big Hemlock logs onto a lawn between a house and a shed, absolutly no room for error, amazing. It can be hero to zero if you miscalculate just a little bit. Search this site about rigging down logs or big, big chunks, involving accidents. I have beefed with people here about it, it is a guessing game, gambling with your life in many cases. It always takes longer to rig than hammer, always, that is why your supervisor is such a fan of it. Think about this, if your supervisor goes for it, do you think he will want you to rig down short logs? Bottom line, safety always comes first.

 

[Rygel]

Ok then on the other hand we get a bonus check in the area of $125-$200 every quarter. But if your crew does any damage to include ruts/yard repair/fence/shrubs etc. it comes out of your bonus. I kinda like the extra money but keep getting stuck with these guys that typically do alot of damage on multi-crew jobs.
Also just think if there were 2-3 peeps around seeing what a good job you "were" doing and they came to us for side jobs. In an area like this one we could make alot of money. But would hire a group of peeps that tore next doors yard up this bad?

 

[clearance]

Rygel, you are talking about side jobs, we call them buzz jobs. Good point, always nice to put some mister dollar green in your jeans after a hard days utility work. Be careful about this and talkng about it, some will rat you out, even treeguys, as disgusting as it sounds. Treeco is proud of the fact that he has called the supervisor at Asplundh to turn in guys doing side jobs with the orange boom. Check out the recent thread "is an arborists licence worth it" or words to that effect. Do what your supervisor wants, do side jobs and give him some of the loot or booze or whatever.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

What most arborists will do is ask the customer how much lawn damage is acceptable, and then discuss the price difference if we either do no lawn damage, do lawn damage and repair it, or do lawn damage and leave it for them to fix.
Many residential jobs will include stump removal, in which case we just bomb it out, and the lawn gets fixed when the stump hole gets filled.
It can be a good selling point to bring up lawn damage in advance, to separate a professional arborist from some hack working for cash.:jawdrop:

 

[dakota]

Sounds like you're in kind of a tough spot Rygel. On the one hand you may get some bonus money for not doing damage but on the other hand your supervisor seems to condone "bombs away" with his 'expert' lawn repairs.

And in order to cash in on bonus money, you have to change the behavior of others. Nice.

Learn what you can while with a company like this - experiment when able. Build barriers with logs to prevent rolls into plants, buildings, etc. Learn how to dump trunks in ways that reduce diggers. Learn sound roping techniques.

Then go out and find another company where the culture is a bit more conducive to your own work ethic.

 

[dakota]

I didn't realize that you did utility work. I was poking around on another thread and caught on. It's one thing to want to improve your skills and learn more but if you're just looking to make more cash on side jobs, advice will be a bit more difficult to come by, from me anyway. If the utility guys around here trashed my yard, I'd have a fit too.

Like Mike alluded to, Arborists put a bit more thought into the yard as a whole...we are there to make improvements.

 

[clearance]

Mostly good points Mike, in my experience when people hear the financial diif. between hammering it down with a little damage and having (bow down all unworthy treemen) an arborist take forever to do it with no damage, they wiegh the financial cost and say "let er rip". Dakota, Mike utility takes a lot of skill, hack or not, you are not allowed to do it here without extensive training, tests, time worked under supervision etc. I have done res. and thought of houses or other things as though they were powerlines and not damaged them, have also done many side jobs after a days utility work for many people who were happy. Mike, you ever flip logs so they land flat? Try it sometime, its a blast, specially when it works out, I am by no means perfect, flat or nearly flat 3 out of 4.

 

[lawmart]

there, are so many variables when block down logs or chunks
- example 30 foot log drop it in one piece and make one large dent

 

[lawmart]

there, are so many variables when block down logs or chunks
- example 30 foot log drop it in one piece and make one large dent
drop it in 15 2 foot sections 15 dents in the lawn
wich would you rather fix.
even if you rope it down there will still be a dent in the lawn if you have to swing it over an object (shed etc..)
is the lawn wet and soft or hard and bone dry.
On my estimate sheets i state "not responsible for any dents in lawns unless otherwise written in quote" when you do the sale you must feel out the client to see what is acceptable to the client.
If you can get away with bropping bombs then do it ,if not and you have to rope everything down then, charge accordingly

whoops must of hit the wrong button a few times sorry guys

lawmart

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

No, I can't make the log lay flat. I try, but it works fewer times than it fails.
Clearance, we do completely different jobs, although we use similar tools, it's still completely different.
I did line clearance, for about a month, and didn't care for it. Most of what I do is residential tree work, mostly trimming. A big part of what we do is tree care. Maybe 20% is removal. If a customer is hiring tree care professionals, they have money, and don't want divots in the lawn, sawdust on their roof, or spike marks on their trees.
On the other hand, if I am cutting and chucking a limb, and it hits the roof just lightly, I don't get electrocuted.
I want the trees I work on to live long and healthy lives, you want them to die, slow agonizingly.
While I'm talking about our differences, I'd say I'm more of a progressive worker, while you're more old school.
I nearly shat myself when you wrote about all your accidents. I think you said you were cut seriously a few times with a chainsaw. Then you argued with me about how a person couldn't get hurt drop starting a saw.
Reminded me of the guy who thinks it's easy to quit smoking, because he's done it a hundred times.

 

[Rygel]

Yeah - I'm kinda starting to realize that what i want my values at isn't for line clearance. I've seen alot of "shaving" of trees and it being ok with the utility. as where i get picked on some for being to slow even though i do my best to properly cut to laterals and stuff. Maybe in a year or two i will have the time needed to get my arborist license and move on. But this company is treating me right and good.
As far as side jobs we mostly do them at night or weekends. But our supervisor don't mind to much if we already have our production done for the day. As long as its nothing too large. and if any damage results its you arse and bonus.
I have watched some vids and read some on laying the logs down flat "flipping". Its neat to do and try but it doesn't always work. I guess practice makes perfect (or atleast better). But i sure hate to practice on other peeps yards.

 

[Tree Dr.]

brush nest

Get some brush make a nest in the drop zone.Drop the eggs in the basket.Fast and clean.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Get some brush make a nest in the drop zone.Drop the eggs in the basket.Fast and clean.

Now try to chip the brush.

 

[Rygel]

I tried that approach when i first started as a groundsman- i thought my foreman was gonna have a aneurysm in the bucket! after a few weeks i seen where that causes problems.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Rygel -As an example: In Beranik's "Fundamentals of General Tree Work" he goes into some detail about piecing down trunk wood such that you can get the chunks to lay flat or spear down or a triple-lutz with a half-gainer...

The ratio is 1:18 or roughly 20% of the hight you are working at to get it to rotate to land flat.

The way it sperates will allso influance the rotation, so it's much more an art then science.

I cannot remember the ratio for spearing it. Most of the companies I work for preffer a flat landing and short enough to easily move out of the way.