pro saws vs homeowner/farm and ect

[Freehand]

I've seen some four cube and bigger saws that were awful POS's......


A pro sticker does not a saw make......:monkey:

 

[jd548esco72]

one can argue that the professional grade saws and the consumer saws are made out of the same thing. this is a half-truth. they are but they are but they aren't.

saws are made mostly out of steel,plastic and aluminum with a little magnesium is some.

you can say a steel is steel and a forging is a forging and what not.

there is a fly in this ointment.

steel can vary greatly in strength and hardness. i have some $3 freds store steel drill bits that are softer than ABS plastic. i have some fine German made tool steel bits that can cut through anything just about. the look the same--made of steel. in actual use not the same at all.

grannys 1972 station wagon has a small block in it--same size and type of mill that has run daytona for many years.

the logic that the same is the same it should be just fine for a 500 mile 10500rpm race shouldn't it. try it and see how far that gets.

the same materials of differing quality can give drastically opposite results in actual use.

since i retired from logging i do lots of work on industrial equipment. since all the outsourcing has hit the heavy industry market we have been a wash in a sea of "look-alike" parts that are very cheap to buy.

these look-alike parts make me a ton of money. my going rate is $100 a hour and i get to replace the cheap parts over and over and over again.

i get the same $100 per hour to put in the good stuff. when the good stuff is used that machine won't be back with that same problem for a long,long time.

you can get buy with those cheap china,India,Pakistan made parts if your not working the machine very hard or just don't have much work to do.
soon as you get a big job going all that cheap #### is gonna take a nice bite out of your productivity.--

sounds just like a homeowner type of saw don't it?

 

[TreeClimber57]

is gonna take a nice bite out of your productivity.--

Yep. And more than cost what you saved on the saw..!

sounds just like a homeowner type of saw don't it?

Does so.. although a hard lesson to learn and many will not understand.. as if you use a lower end saw, as you mentioned, for light work it may last a long time. (especially the Stihl or Husqvarna mid-range saws)

Then again you do hear occasionally about a higher end saw with issues, but then the logical questions arise.. was it poor quality in that particular saw or was it simply poor use and maintenance on the part of the owner.

 

[Hangtown]

i really think that it depends on each application. that being said, it also depends on which pro vs mid-range. hey treeclimber57, i see you have both an MS260(pro) and an MS270(mid range) Stihl saws. is there THAT big of a difference, in your opinion, on quality, comfort, style, etc. between the 2?
i don't cut trees for a living, however, i do live in the sticks and cut and split my own firewood. i also have to do a lot of maintenance, limbing, and burning year round on 10 heavily wooded acres.
i opted for the MS270, as it's probably the most comfortable saw i've ever used. if "feels" like a much bigger saw. so far, i'm very happy with my decision. only time will tell if i'm still happy in 5-10 years.

 

[weimedog]

This Homeowner-Landowner-Pro designation differs from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Stihl, I really don't know how much the construction diffs as I don't know Stihls.

Husqvarna? A lot of it is based on marketing. Like in the old "200" series. Whats the real difference between 61 thru 272 line? You can swap top ends around and intake - exaust parts as well on those bottom ends. I bet based on what I have seen, those old 61's will out last a "Pro" 272 because the basic bottom end is very close to being the same AND the 61 is running less HP, RPM's, and therefore less stress. Period. Exclamation point. So the "XP" rating is about production and speed in those cases, not nessecarily longevity. A premium price for Power to weight ratio vs. any real longevity change.

Same with later model such as the 365 Special vs. 372XP. My bet is the 365 out lasts a 372 as yet again the core components are similar to the point you can swap barrels (a popular discussion point) to bring the POWER level of a 365 up to a 372. The actual materials in the hard parts aren't different enough to make a difference in longevity. 359 vs. 357XP? I can tell you my experience favors the 359 at every analysis..especially longevity! The 455-460 "plastic homeowners materials vs. 357-359? Right now...that 455 looks better than the 357XP in the longevity side in my experience. There sure are a lot of them still living and still in service! (455's) Even with the lean factory carb settings!

AND going back further in history, the J-Red's I'm working on right now. My 820 is the same as a 920 with the exception of Bore. 54mm for the 920 52mm for the 820....wonder what the price difference was?

AND last (in this posting) but not least..Dolmar/Makita. Those 6400 thru 7900 series saws. Price difference buys only displacement. Again the dollar difference is a performance vs. longevity thing.

So bottom line is it isn't a "clear cut" deal where a "pro" varient will have better core materials & therefore last longer. "Pro" can mean a performance upgrade on a similar weight/size model and /or better materials..but research is required to see from brand to brand.

(True home owner saws...like the Homelite Ranger...all plasitic. And the Husqvarna 455, lots of plastic have theoretically lessor materials than pro saws ...BUT you can argue they are adequate for the job and may even match the life span of a pro saw ...but at a weight dissadvantage. Also there is a thought process that susstained heavy use on plastic saws shorten their life due to the difficulty in dissapating heat from the bottom end...my 455 is proving that wrong. Again an issue to design around)

On and an. Makes for a great disscussion!

 

[FXDL]

i bought a dolmar 5105, not sure if it is or not but i consider it a pro saw. i am only an occasional user but i like knowing that this will probably last me 20 years or so and there will still be parts around for it. :greenchainsaw:

 

[jd548esco72]

Yep. And more than cost what you saved on the saw..!




Does so.. although a hard lesson to learn and many will not understand.. as if you use a lower end saw, as you mentioned, for light work it may last a long time. (especially the Stihl or Husqvarna mid-range saws)

Then again you do hear occasionally about a higher end saw with issues, but then the logical questions arise.. was it poor quality in that particular saw or was it simply poor use and maintenance on the part of the owner.

i am sure a few lemon pro saws exist. they exist cause there is all ways that "monday after the 4th of july drinking contest-octoberfest, or whatever. that strike breaking bunch of new hires the factory just put on the line, or they may out source a few parts to try the improve the bottom line. but you can bet whatever cost cutting measures that make to the top line have been implemented on the lower end products in a more large scale way and maybe all at once.

even the homelite 360 that we were running in the late 70s would last a year or more bucking pulpwood. since the old 360s liked to boil the gas in the tank when pushed really hard they likely were only bucking 6-10 chords of wood a DAY. given rain, mill slowdowns lets just estimate 130 working days a year. the lowest production of 6 chords that is 780 chords a year- three ton to the chord = 2340 tons that sounds like a lot but it is only 71 loads of treelength a year per saw. now this is a low end estimate.

a homeowner saw is got some going to do to catch up with that old homie bucking.


now days the bucking saw is history. workmans comp and slashers have pretty much took them out of the picture. tree-harvesting machines have taken over the majority of felling as well. so saws are no longer the make of break item on production jobs anymore.

 

[bytehoven]

When figuring the saw purchase budget, there are a number of accessories which needed to be purchased/considered.

- safety gear
- extra loops & bars
- bar oil & 2 cycle mix
- sharpening gear

Common sense would suggest they figure out the cost of all of the prerequisite extras, and then see what $$$ is left for the saw.

If the $$$ left will not buy a new pro grade saw, do they:

A) wait until they have enough for gear and pro grade saw
B) take a chance on a used pro grade saw
C) take a chance on a good homeowner/landowner saw
D) skip the gear and just buy the pro saw

It seems any choice but D) would be a sensible choice.

 

[TreeClimber57]

i you have both an MS260(pro) and an MS270(mid range) Stihl saws. is there THAT big of a difference, in your opinion, on quality, comfort, style, etc. between the 2?

The 270 is a very good saw. It will cut as much as the 260 and all day long. I have yet to have a single issue or breakdown with it, and it starts as easily as the 260.

Now it is clamshell design, so a bit harder to work on.
It is quite a bit bulkier/larger in size physically (as saws go). Compare two at a dealer if they have both for size and feel.
It does weigh a bit more, but not significantly so.
I like the 260 as it is smaller and a bit lighter.. easier to get into tight corners and maneuver when in bucket.[/QUOTE]

i opted for the MS270, as it's probably the most comfortable saw i've ever used. if "feels" like a much bigger saw. so far, i'm very happy with my decision. only time will tell if i'm still happy in 5-10 years.

Despite what we may say, if you take care of it, burn the proper octane gasoline and mix with proper ratio and good oil.. it will last you a long time.
How long, not sure yet I have an 026 that is still running strong (the 260 prior to name change in 2000/2001 time frame). Will the 270 run as long and as strong. not sure yet but it has been good so far. I think you likely made a good choice and will live with that saw for many years. Like mentioned on this and other threads the Stihl mid-range saws, which the 270 is, are not too far off the pro saws. The lower end Stihl saws (the 170 to 250 models) are a whole different breed I think.. and my experience with them has been somewhat less than stellar.

As far as comfort, if you used saws other than the big brands before, yes you will notice a huge difference with even the 270 (but the 260 is a bit nicer still )

Good luck, and continue to enjoy the saw!!

 

[TreeClimber57]

If the $$$ left will not buy a new pro grade saw, do they:

A) wait until they have enough for gear and pro grade saw
B) take a chance on a used pro grade saw
C) take a chance on a good homeowner/landowner saw
D) skip the gear and just buy the pro saw

It seems any choice but D) would be a sensible choice.

But unless they are doing this for a living, likely the one many would make!

 

[bytehoven]

But unless they are doing this for a living, likely the one many would make!

AH, great point.

I have long appreciated AS for this very reason, because while many of our contagious members go about the business of spreading their disease, the safety considerations usually comes first.

 

[Saw Dr.]

one can argue that the professional grade saws and the consumer saws are made out of the same thing. this is a half-truth. they are but they are but they aren't.

saws are made mostly out of steel,plastic and aluminum with a little magnesium is some.

you can say a steel is steel and a forging is a forging and what not.

there is a fly in this ointment.

steel can vary greatly in strength and hardness. i have some $3 freds store steel drill bits that are softer than ABS plastic. i have some fine German made tool steel bits that can cut through anything just about. the look the same--made of steel. in actual use not the same at all.

grannys 1972 station wagon has a small block in it--same size and type of mill that has run daytona for many years.

the logic that the same is the same it should be just fine for a 500 mile 10500rpm race shouldn't it. try it and see how far that gets.

the same materials of differing quality can give drastically opposite results in actual use.

So how does Stihl keep track of the 9503 003 0340 Flywheel side bearing on the PRO series 038 (argueably one of the strongest saws Stihl ever built) versus the 9503 003 0340 bearing used on BOTH sides of the 021 homeowner crank? Part numbers look awful similar to me. How about the bearing on the other end of the 038 crank? It is a 9503 003 0440. Hmmmm, that seems to be the one used on ALL 029/039/290-390 series saws. Are you suggesting that these parts are of different quality even though they carry the same Stihl part number?

 

[jd548esco72]

So how does Stihl keep track of the 9503 003 0340 Flywheel side bearing on the PRO series 038 (argueably one of the strongest saws Stihl ever built) versus the 9503 003 0340 bearing used on BOTH sides of the 021 homeowner crank? Part numbers look awful similar to me. How about the bearing on the other end of the 038 crank? It is a 9503 003 0440. Hmmmm, that seems to be the one used on ALL 029/039/290-390 series saws. Are you suggesting that these parts are of different quality even though they carry the same Stihl part number?

they may be all the same part number. could all be the same or they could be binned. another thing one would have to look at might be on some years they may have turned out better parts than others. i figure some batches of the same parts and pns are better than others. what if one set of power heads leaves the factory with OEM and another batch of saws gets outsourced parts with the same pn?

the only people who would know would have to spend a lot of time at the factory and see the parts produced or know the supplier of the parts.

i do know on certain years of automotive crankshafts and blocks some years are much better than others of the exact same make and PN for high performance use. and i also have seen import parts carrying the same part numbers as the OE part that didn't hold up well. and in an ironic twist some of the imported blocks and cranks were better than the OE stuff!

the the part carries the same PN is is the same part as the OE-though it could be from another source. they could been produced by the OE in some years, switched to a outsource in some years/model numbers.

i am not saying stihl does this. the only way i could know would be to work at the factory.

by the same token are you absolutely sure every bearing ever produced for 029-39 stihl saws was produced by the exact same OEM manufacturer, with the exact same steel, heat treat, tolerances and so on for the entire production run of these saws over all the years they were produced? i find that unlikely. sometime in the production run they made changes --hopefully for the better.

i can put a Chinese wheel bearing in my buick that has the same PN as the one made in flint. it fits and runs down the road fine. i don't know if it will make 200k miles on our worn out roads though.

 

[TreeClimber57]

So how does Stihl keep track of the 9503 003 0340 Flywheel side bearing on the PRO series 038 (argueably one of the strongest saws Stihl ever built) versus the 9503 003 0340 bearing used on BOTH sides of the 021 homeowner crank? Part numbers look awful similar to me.

Ahh.. the key word is similar.. you overlooked the microdot!!

 

[TreeClimber57]

i can put a Chinese wheel bearing in my buick that has the same PN as the one made in flint. it fits and runs down the road fine. i don't know if it will make 200k miles on our worn out roads though.

Good point. However, that is totally up to the manufacturer to define and to control the quality. Something, sad to say, that North American manafactuers have been historically poor at doing.

Historically, Stihl made their parts, including chains, etc in either Germany or Switzerland for their pro saws. They even have their own magnesium die-casting plant, which they expanded in 2009, opening one of the most advanced plants in Europe. (they also produce magnesium for several automotive and tool companies as well in same plant) Their chains are all Swiss made.

When it comes to precision and quality, the Germans and Swiss are difficult to beat. Unfortunately in North America, while we have the skills and technology, usually profit margin prevails and quality ultimately suffers.

There are also some quality differences even at Stihl, if I remember correctly the pro saws all have forged connecting rods, while some of the lower end saws use stamped connecting rods (as an example) and I am sure the list goes on.

 

[Saw Dr.]

by the same token are you absolutely sure every bearing ever produced for 029-39 stihl saws was produced by the exact same OEM manufacturer, with the exact same steel, heat treat, tolerances and so on for the entire production run of these saws over all the years they were produced?

No, but I also cannot prove that they didn't use the bearings of supposed lesser quality on the PRO saws instead of the homeowner saws. In the eyes of Stihl, they are the same part. Otherwise they would have different part numbers. Using this logic, it could be said that the homeowner saw could contain some parts that are of better quality than the pro. This is certainly the case of the cylinders (290's still use Mahle,) as evidenced by some of the no-name 460 and 660 OEM jugs.

I enjoy debating with you, jd548. You make valid points and I understand your point of view. I disagree that Stihl (or any other real manufacturer) uses different quality parts on homeowner saws vs. PRO. It makes financial sense for them to use as many common parts and suppliers as possible. I agree that the pro series from any company is designed to be more robust and last longer. I begin to get frustrated when another person comes on here trashing the 290's. In my experience, they are a very dependable workhorse. That is why MANY tree service folks use them around here. That plus they are inexpensive. They are designed to be inexpensive, and thus may have to be engineered a little less sturdy. I believe the engine to be of the same quality in homeowner vs pro. The chassis seems to be where they save the money. In any case, you probably paid $325 for your 029, and got 5 years out of it. That's $0.18 per day. If you spent $650 on a 036 at the same time and got 10 years out of it, you 'd still be at the 18 cents.

I have both pro and homeowner saws, and will continue to like and run both. They all have value to me. I probably will never know how long any of them will last as I do not cut nearly as much as you. Also, my stable of saws seems to change from time to time.

 

[leeave96]

I'll take a Pro saw, but as my back gets older, could you hand me a lighter weight one?

Bill

 

[chad3]

I'll take a Pro saw, but as my back gets older, could you hand me a lighter weight one?

Bill

Bill,
I'm not quite older yet, but I still reach for the smallest saw that will get the job done. I've found a soft spot for the little solo tophandle once the wood gets to be about 6" or so and limbing the wood.
I understand completely. I wouldn't want to have to cut with even the 372 in 12" wood if I don't have to. I usually run at least 3 saws in the woods each time I cut. They tend to be either 28", 20" and 14, or 24", 20, 12".
Seems to work very good for me.
Sure the 20 stands out as this is the saw that I like to use most of the time (361).
Chad

 

[jd548esco72]

I'll take a Pro saw, but as my back gets older, could you hand me a lighter weight one?

Bill

HA!HA!

i hear you on that one.

the perfect saw would have the grunt of a ms460. the fuel economy of a 30cc pull-ann, weigh 3 ounces, cost $.25 and have somebody else to run it! LOL!

a non pro saw might be a good saw. i got to see someone really cut some wood with it first. this 18-20 chords a year ain't cutting it with me yet.
the proof is in the pudding was the old saying was it not?

maybe i am just a stubborn old cuss with a bad attitude? but i know what put my kids through medical school!

PS as much as i like the power of my hot-rodded 044s. i think i run the 575 shindaiwa more on the firewood chores. it does a fine job on the smaller stuff and is quite a bit lighter with the 18 inch bar!

 

[chad3]

Don't forget the mid range saws tend to be heavier than their pro saw counterparts. Another issue if you are going to run it at any length of time.
Chad