Pulling Directions on Fall

[TheTreeSpyder]

The tapered hinge works. From the forward force of the tree pulling the same; all hinges will fold forward at the same strength.......on that axis. The tapered hinge works on sideleans better than a standard/generic/strip hinge because the tapered reapportions the alloted hinge strength from the forward pull, to a pattern more leveraged against the sidelean pull axis. It does this by reapportioning the fibre pattern to:
A) Providing more fibers in the tension/support/controlling positions, then increasing their powers by-
B) Place fibers in a farther away/ more leveraged by distance of these positions
C) Also, places these greater numbers of tension/support fibers, that have greater leveraged length from the pivot of compressed fiber area, into also a much better leveraged angle.

So, i calculate the support as the length of tension fibers to pivot X the angle of those fibers to pivot/CG line X and the amount of fiber pull in that position, and try to maximize each multiplier. Just as the tree load is calculated as : Length from CG to pivot of compressed fiber X the angle of that weight to the pivot X the amount of that weight. The hinge leverage as support, vs. the tree leverage as load. As long as support= load; the equal and opposites are satiated and in balance, motion only when the load exceeds the support, and the load must seek out it's equal and opposite force of support, so wanders until it can rest against something again. Line pull/ wedge push is fine; but in good wood should be in the direction of the fall, to take advantage of these multipliers. Whereby, the fiber count is set by the forward pressure, so we increase that, then have more fibers, in more leverage-able positions. In wood of less elasticity and constitution, i might angle the direction of push/pull to fight the sidelean more directly myself, but this does unload the hinge of these forces i replace, and thereby the hinges multiplying capabilities.

i learned this from a 4th generation logger's book as listed in Dent on Hinging . So, once again, don't have anything agianst loggers.... Wi as a climber, have taken Dent's theories and turned them sideways; after noticing that the strategies where the same, just varied by direction of the lean force; or other similar pressures as in his bucking scenarios. Once again, going to Gypo crew numbers of times over years to cross compare notes, and distill out the commonalities that ruled in both fields.

Climbers do more felling, than loggers do climbing, and there are lessons at each station; to give broader spectrum to the other. But, a climber, just about always has to stay in the bullpen with the moving beast of a spar, there is no where to go. They are stuck with their decisions. Sometimes catching said load right next to them on a single, stretched thin line, supported by the very architecture they themselves hang from. These lessons are perhaps more intense. These decisions perhaps take an extra second guessing and look to science; as this man's life is literally, more on the line; with nowhere to run if it goes wrong.

So, the math/science is not just about a puzzle of where it goes; but of safety of knowing where it won't go; as well as giving the hinge/face machine more correct mechanics for a larger SWL of the hinge as a controlling device of all this immense leveraged force.

i think the next frontier is to investigate the topic that Dent opens in his felling bible, of closing 1 the lean side of face early. This 'swing dutchy' especially helpful in climbing, where we don't necessarily see the immense weight of a whole tree (though, some cuts come close) ; but in horizontal spars, swept to the side and not down, see higher leveraged angles, and try to move the spar on the hinge a wider radius too. Taking down as the sidelean to across movement, the fat part of tapered on top pulls up, as the close kerf at the base of the hinge pushes up in aid. i think that closing 1 side of face early lends more of a powerful tourqued, rather than linear force input to the scenario of control.

 

[CoreyTMorine]

???? spider, i don't know if i spend more time trying to inturpret your wordy posts, or that cryptic one word "test". what do you mean "test"?

Haaa! got it. BTW I like your posts, wordy or otherwise. They are thourough and very informative. I'm beginning to focus and wheels are turning...

Your time is much appreciated, thanks.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Ken, I knew we'd finally pull you out of the woodwork!
I was trying to think how you climber types come up with all these trees to practice on. Like it's not as though somebody's front lawn is like a forest where you can just merrily fall trees till your hearts content.
Hey Ekka, gotta love that cute lil diploma you got on your website.
Hahaha
John

 

[rbtree]

Dat's a little better, gyro..better be nice or I'll have ta come out to the not so great white north and biotch slap ya. :umpkin:

 

[rbtree]

I ussually pull trees to the right anyway. A function of my technique, and Pinus strobus. The Pines will pull alot of root if you don't cut the hinge as it falls. Dad always called the root wood that pulled out a "scaf". He really based his felling around this phenominon, saying it was better to pull the wood than to cut it off. His trees most always drifted towards the "scaf", ussually right hand side.

RB:I can't say it is better, unless you want fiber pull to aid in swinging into the lay....and only on one side. If not, then cut in ears (relief cuts, splint cuts, whatever ya wanna call 'em)

Part of the issue is cutting 20"+ trees with a 20" or even 18" bar. I ussually plunge cut out the low side of the tree (the side under the lean) default the right side or 3 o'clock if the face is towards 12 o'clock. Anyway, i ussually plunge cut one side of the tree, and set up my hinge on that side, then come around and finesh the back cut from the other side.
What this sets up is a preset hinge that i can't cut as the tree falls. And with white pine even a moderately narrow hinge (say 2" on a 20" - 28" dbh tree) will cause a scaf to pull out. Rather than fight this effect with a longer bar or "nipping the side", i find it easier to accept it and compensate accordingly.

RB: Dat's cool. Personally, i only bore cut to preset the hinge with head leaners. Can't see a need otherwise. But I ain't no pro feller/faller/logger/buncher dude[/I]

I'm thinking that the "scaf" effect is more pronounced in the fall, sept, oct, and novemeber. The wood seems to have less sap and so rather than bend or break as in the spring and early summer it will rip down the grain, pulling a root section up with it.

Towards the end of august i was topping and dropping 8, 10, and 12 footers. man that wood was strong, i had a couple of 8's fall 35 or 40 degrees and stop short. it was a very thin hinge that held the log from falling over. And with the tops and longer logs if i didn't cut the hinge right off it would pull hard to the strong side of the hinge or any hinge wood that was left.
That was up in New Hampshire somewhere, Newboston, or somewhere the other side of chappel tractor, not sure without looking at a map. Wherever i'm not sure if the woods toughness was due to the time of year or the dry summer, or if it was just a local effect specific to those trees. What do you think?

RB:Try boring out the center holding wood, ya don't need it anyway.

Doodahh

 

[Gypo Logger]

Ok Roger, I'll be good, but come on out anyway while we still got some trees left. This is the only Peace Burger I have left.
John

 

[rbtree]

Yummy....veggie? no moose scat I hope....

 

[Thor's Hammer]

All this comes down to Jelousy on Gyppoe's part. This is because us climbers can fell trees to within 80% (lets be generous) of his ability. but no matter how much he waffles on about his felling exspurtese, He could not even come within 10% of a climbers ability to strip and dismantle big trees in confined situations.
Now John, you may disagree with this fact, and stomp and tantrum about it, but thats the facts.

 

[CoreyTMorine]

"Test" was to see if i could still post; cuz that crashed 3x, so i had to brake it into 2 posts... As far as my wierdy posts; been told before; but there is so much to compress the proper imagery into as few words as i do; per it's relevance.

Its really great work you do.

And as for veggie burgers made from moose scat, i like moose scat if you get it in the spring when the maple buds are sweet. goes real well with fiddle heads... MMMM fidle heads

Back to the whole "scaf" technique, and how it relates to my very first post on this thread, which stated "i often use a tappered hinge in practice. but, theoretically it may be not the best, as i worry about such a hinge when wind throw or other forces are taken into account.

Looking back on this whole post, and Mike Maas's pic on that earlier 2002 post, and considering the "scaf" idea. I think dad was using the "scaf" for exactly the reasons that have been demonstrated here for use of a tapered hinge. And the
"scaf" has the advantage of leaving an even hinge that is more resistant to wind throw and using leverage that is further from side pull (the root that pulls out is often farther out from the face cut than the hinge.

"scaf" technique has the disadvantage of being less accurate.

Nothing world shaking, just another club in the bag.

 

[smokechase II]

Corey & Chris:
You can't say that your gun will be either just to the right or left.
Granted, the line on the powerhead will point off to the side of where the face/tree is actually pointing. BUT, is your powerhead on the right or left side of the tree? {Any decent saw has a gunning line on both sides of the head.}
If your face is being made from the left side, your powerhead will point slightly to the left of the intended direction of fall. Right side - to the right. This gets to be a minimal concern the farther away from the stump you get. This angle of the dangle over 100 feet out is unlikely to matter most of the time.
To be a competent faller you must be able to drop a tree making all of your cuts from either side. This to avoid danger on the off-side or obstacles.
So bend down enough to look horizontally out the sight line that is on the saw, do not use the handlebars. Looking straight from above at this line and glancing down in the general direction of fall is a nice way to be 5 degrees off and get hung up, (as opposed to being well hung).
If you have a double bit axe, or certain falling axes, you can place the head against the interior of your completed face cut and the handle will point your faces' direction. Caveat, not accurate with every falling axe/handle. Need to compare your field axe with a carpenters square and your faces depth could effect axe position also. However, if your an arborist that most of the time operates near where you can take your service vehicle, why not take a 3 foot carpenters square for a couple special trees a year?
Also beware of the learning sawyer who with his/her saw still (no pun) running will look down the sights as the saw as just vibrated and moved to where the gunning sights are not pointing accurately. Time to vacate that area and go get a camera.

 

[Gypo Logger]

I could be wrong, and please feel free to b!tch slap me if I am. lol
But it seems the majority of climbers are obsessed about the mechanics of the notch and hinge as apposed to the tool which does the cutting which is a "chainsaw."
It's like a carpenter agonizing over a dovetail joint and not concentrating on the tool that cuts it.
At the risk of getting my head chopped off I will say that a sharp chainsaw is the most important thing in the equation of hingenomics and not volumes and volumes of theory. What good is theory if your saw cuts are crooked and is underpowered?
A fast sharp saw is your best friend and I bet more accidents are attributed to dull saws than we realize.
Case in point:
The first picture was cut with a dull saw, hence the jagged cuts, while the following pic was done with a sharp saw.
My point is, if the saw cuts crooked and can't make the cuts fast enough the operator is jeopardizing his life and efficiency.
Only because I care.
John

 

[Ekka]

Well it's good to see you do care John and blunt saws are a PITA.

What sort of timber is that bottom one?

 

[Thor's Hammer]

I too have a warm feeling in heart, safe in the knowledge that John cares.
Thats why I'm glad my saws are sharp enough to shave with.
Now if I'm not mistaken, the top photo is Chinese Elm, a notoriously stringy timber, whilst the bottom pic looks like maple. Maple is harder and shorter grained than Elm, and will always look smother cut with a chainsaw, be it sharp or blunt.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Eric, that's a Rock Maple or a Canadian Sugar Maple. It's the hottest thing going next to Cherry.
I looked at 40 huge ones today and I hope I can buy them at 500$ each.
Here's an example and I was thinking of what a climber would do.
Here's two nice Maples about 28" DBH, however we have a shattered tree leaning into the one.
My guess is to fall the tree in the bottom left and let the leaner follow it down while letting the Maple in the bottom right run defence.
John

 

[Ekka]

Good observation Thor, you know those Chinese Elms. I did that job with Awsomeclimber and he soon learnt that the bark could almost become a lowering rope if not cut.

The saw was dull but not worth sharpening yet as we had to cut the base plus the base of a dirty ficus which has heaps of dirt. It ended up we pretty much blunted 3 chains on the lower portion, plus we had 3 cotton palm stumps with raised root balls to cut .... so I made the productivity and business decision to keep going with that saw till it was really stuffed.

Derek filed up a few that day ... I think one got so stuffed up we binned it. We were swapping the 44 for the 46 and he was filing chains.

Urban environments seem to attract a lot of crap around base cuts of stumps!

Some day John may like to visit and see what goes on in these reverse climate areas with all the saw duling species we have. Thor, do you remeber the Mugga Ironbark, that thick hard crusty bark plate can be 2" thick in place, takes the edge right off in no time. A lot of times to keep going I use a short bar on a 66 to pull me through ... and I take an ammo box of spare chains.

My record was 12 chains dulled on the base of a large Moreton Bay fig.

 

[Ekka]

So John

I have marked the picture, you want the 2 yellow ticks and the red cross guy is dead leaning on a "keeper". Is that right?

Just a funny angle pic.

 

[Thor's Hammer]

John, you make the dangerous assumption that just cause someone's a climber, they know nothing about timber. We just did a thinning job and took out 300 tonnes of curly sycamore. At the price that stuff goes for, the owner would be VERY upset if you break or shake one of his butts.
Are you telling me what to do in the pic? sure, I'd probably let the leaner follow the other tree down, and use the tree on the right as a safety zone.

 

[Gypo Logger]

That's correct Eric. Generally a leaner like that is very intertwined with the host tree due to wind and time. Thus the keeper will most likely break off the lener at it's weakest point. If not it will snap off due to how far it must fall.
Regardless, It's a cut and run affair, but I'll be hidding somewhere behind the tree on the right when it all comes down.
It's nothing new though, just another day in the life of a woodrat. I actually flipped the pic 90 degrees on it would fit better here.
John

 

[Gypo Logger]

Thor, I think alot of us are underestimating each other in what it takes to do our jobs.
The girls say it's a guy thing, but i guess things would get pretty sappy if we were always getting along I guess.
John

 

[CoreyTMorine]

Thor, I think alot of us are underestimating each other in what it takes to do our jobs.
The girls say it's a guy thing, but i guess things would get pretty sappy if we were always getting along I guess.
John

Yeah, i worry about that myself sometimes. The best part about the tree industry is the people. Big personalities and characters pretty much across the board, part of what keeps it interesting. But telling stories about how two guys had an argument on an internet forum doesn't really hold an audience well. Maybe if Gypo got on a plane to australia to go punch Ekka in the mouth only to find that ekka was wandering around the canadian wilderness punching out random loggers in hopes of finding gypo. I guess that would get a me a free beer :].

Are all those trees in ontario gypo? the way all you frenchmen buy up logs down here i figured all the timber up there was long gone.

And i think your right about sharp well running saws. No matter how much i try and compensate for dull cutters, things just don't seem to work right. On the other side, if my saw is running smooth everything else falls into place, no enginearing required. If i post pic's of all my saws will you sharpen them for me?

I'm looking at those hard maples again, their real purty. Is that a managed lot, or just some guys back 40?