putting a 60' tree in a 40' landing zone

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i think there is no other option except to climb in the scenario.

i would work it down smaller; looking at weight, balance, where curves in spar were. i will pace off size of LZ, then do rake trick, then pace back the LZ size from the fall line determined by rake trick, do rake trick sighting, mentally mark, and repeat for like putting 80' in a 20' "box".

So here i would do that, try to get 15-25 out, maybe have to make one cut, and then cut stump high, gives better padding for fall that way too i think.


The only scenarios were i would opt more towards what is pro-posed that come to mind is if i needed the extra length for leverage, lower CG of victim to bring backlean forward more positively. Or top to rotted, super small etc.

i think with a back leaner is a very good example of using tapered hinge, and why; especially in such a position. Let the hinge steer (in good wood) the sidelean, and all effort be to target! Do not waste any effort pulling a tree off of a man, by using some of the key force to steer, when hinge can do that task; let all the force crew exerts be to save man! i'll also take that over the hill lacing here, even if it jsut braces the back of the lean to push forward...

Even if perfectly balanced, a lil taper pulling away from you can be comfortable i think.

Everything to scale, at some point too much 5x1 x 3 crew is too much on hinge, i beleive in forcing a stronger hinge; but i think it is an equal and opposite response;and at some point if something slipped under such high tension X leverage distance of hitch form hinge the massive opposite reaction you created could devastate if it wins out.

Another way that can go (not that it ever has happened to Meee....); is inciting such an equal and opposite reaction in hinge to force slow and strong, and you have a bunch of guys fumbling around each other suddenly, also it takes 5' of pull for 1' of action, and the spar is forward some, and they need to pull line tighter jsut a lil bit, cuz it is drifting a few degrees off; and you imposed this super force in it to go were it is designed, and they can't reel it in as fast as a single line with 2 guys and so it goes...................

Grabbing the host line and not the 5x1 they been pulling on saves the day, or in front of the power puller etc. Getting the speed of the 1x1 rather than 1/5 speed, while fumbling and trying to reel in faster than advancing. But, i just made that up....

:alien:
 
I don't know ho to make these smaller so watch out if your puter is slow.
did this wind fall few winters ago two pul lines and though you can't se e it there is a 70 degree facein it white ash way brittal the cut is actualy stepped up so reduced kick back off stump.
 
"i would work it down smaller; looking at weight, balance, where curves in spar were. i will pace off size of LZ, then do rake trick, then pace back the LZ size from the fall line determined by rake trick, do rake trick sighting, mentally mark, and repeat for like putting 80' in a 20' "box"."



Of course by now it's dark, so i'll i have to come back tomorrow to actually drop the tree.:D ;)
 
In the situation Daniel describes I piece the top out then flop the remainder. I frequently notch and flop at 5-6 feet up to sqeeze a tree into a slightly short landing zone but I don't like to be attached to the trunk and up in the air when doing that. I'm not saying never-I've done it but in most such situations I think it is a poor practice.

Something that I frequently do that seems to set some climber's teeth on edge is take the top out of a little 30 foot tree with a power pruner so that it will fit in a 10, 15 or 20 foot landing zone. It isn't that it is hard to climb a little tree and jump the top out.-Why gear up and climb when you can stay on the ground, make a few cuts and have it all down in 5 minutes?:confused:
 
I have taken down large trees in two pieces before and there definitely is a risk factor in making such a big cut. The guys I know call them "Diaper Cuts". I do a few things to aid in safety when cutting the top half of a tree out. First, I always use a Humbolt face. Second, I make splint cuts about 8 inches below the hinge wood just in case the hinge wood tears on the edge it will stop at the splint cut saving my arse. Third, I use a piece of rope and wrap it around the butt of the top piece several times and tie it so there is no chance of a barber chair. Next, I Wrap the end of my climb line around the tree several times just below the splint cuts and tie it off so there is no way the trunk of the tree will split, and I also rig a Petzel Gri Gri to my climbing line so that if something does happen to me all i have to do rappell to the ground. The largest cut I have made like this was on a Tulip Poplar. The top half that I cut was about 60 feet long and 23 inches in diameter at the cut.
 
As a rule of thumb I will go up at least 3/4 of the way or more and bomb out the top, taking branches out as I go up. It may be a little more time consuming but it also keeps the mess in one central location at the base of the tree, that helps when its time to rake up. Then I usually bomb 4 ft chunks and try to heave them so they land flat and do less damage to the ground below. I dont like takin a tree half way up especially if its a back leaner. Sometimes judgement is the better side of Valor.

Kenn
 
Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Simple! :cool:

MB, with reference to the pic you posted with this......i see pics like t his posted a lot on this site, and whilst you dont see the whole picture, ie whats under the tree etc.....i cant help wondering, if you've been up to the top of the tree to install that line, why didn't you just top it out in a sized piece you could easily hand off???
 
Hmmm. Easily hand off...

Basically, there was nothing under the tree but a fence off a little ways. I'm not real sure what you are talking about, but I'm guessing you mean piece the top out by hand. That is NOT easier, and unnecessary here.
That was one of several pines I was stripping down to a 36' snag. Where you see me throwing the top was 36'. Why would I want to take the top in smaller pieces? I woulda had to bomb chunks til I got down to 36 anyway. Why not take the top in one piece?

I do work tops out by hand, when necessary, like here...
 
In this case there was no bombing possible on the backleaners... two were right over a shed... wouold have been difficult for the groundies to lower them from themselves and the ash was over a fence and phone wires...

I would have taken pictures, but I was working against the clock...
 
piece it out.........

i always was for rigging; but i learned and watched one local climber go mostly the other way; he'd say 'nickle and dime it out' and i sure learned to respect it as a useful strategy!

1 tuff as nails, cornbread fed Kentucky redneck; that seemed of a different breed!
 
Murph,

Of course you could have tied up another guy on a tagline...

But that would take more time.

Sooner done, sooner paid.
 
Which gets back to the individual doing the technique.

Murph and I don't see I to eye on alot of things, but I'm inclined to believe he wouldn't do something unless he was absolutly sure of the outcome.
 
Something that I frequently do that seems to set some climber's teeth on edge is take the top out of a little 30 foot tree with a power pruner so that it will fit in a 10, 15 or 20 foot landing zone. It isn't that it is hard to climb a little tree and jump the top out.-Why gear up and climb when you can stay on the ground, make a few cuts and have it all down in 5 minutes?:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

yeah i love taking out a 25-30' with the ht75 it gets people running for cover,very quick $$$:cool:
 
This picture is why I now always “nickel and dime” 'em out. The notch was too small, too shallow, and the backcut too sloppy. As you can see, the tree (willow) split aside the notch, grabbed my lanyard and yanked me on top of my saw. Luckily, I’d engaged the chain brake and only suffered minor cuts in my hand from the cutters.

Daniel Murphy was so right in his observation in his TCI article that many arborists have a poor understanding of proper felling techniques. Between both my former schooling in arboriculture at Paul Smith’s College and UMass Amherst, and my experience with Bartlett tree experts under the tutelage of two extremely capable climbers (Hi Gil and Leo!), I never learned how to properly notch and backcut a tree like the loggers always have. I’ve learned lots of climbing tricks, but for some reason I've never learned proper felling techniques, which is a very regrettable affair indeed. Maybe it’s because emphasis was mostly placed on properly pruning trees, which is a good thing, of course. But after spray season, when things began to slow down, the salespeople would inevitably start bidding takedowns. Anyway, after discovering this great site, and reading many posts from all you amazingly talented arborists and loggers, I’ve learned how to do it right (most the time), and Lo! – what a vast improvement in safety and efficiency!

But even so, when taking down a spar, I’ll piece it down every time. Mebbe when I get the years of experience of some of the ol’ mosshorns on this site like Master Blaster and rbtree, I’ll work up the gumption to throw a 36’ top. Until then, that willow tree is still on my mind.

Uh-oh, I’m in trouble now. :D

Chucky
 
Like I said before, most arborists don't even consider "flopping" the tree, because they haven't much experience at it.
 
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