Questions re: tree removals.
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Ax-man
Addicted to ArboristSite
Pine tree removal
Go for it if you think you can do it .
There good trees for a first time attempt. Limbs are easily roped if you choose to do so. Spar is nice and straight for climbing and blocking.
Just be prepared to do some gear clean - up after you get done. Pine sap will get on everything you use to accomplish this job. Wear some old clothes and definately get some gloves to handle the wood.
Let us know how you make out.
Go for it if you think you can do it .
There good trees for a first time attempt. Limbs are easily roped if you choose to do so. Spar is nice and straight for climbing and blocking.
Just be prepared to do some gear clean - up after you get done. Pine sap will get on everything you use to accomplish this job. Wear some old clothes and definately get some gloves to handle the wood.
Let us know how you make out.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
PM reply
Alright this one is a lot long... Its a piece I wrote as a response to a PM from Steven.
I post it here thinking it might benefit someone out there...And I welcome all feedback.
D
Brother Steven,
I appreciate your straigtfoward request for assistance and your earnest desire to learn good techniques...
I actually wrote a response before getting the below mail...
There are several advantages to using a block rather than natural crotch rigging, especially on these pines... Do you have the Sherril Catalog??? Gotta get one...the price is right too! Using a rigging block will allow much faster and easier rope movement (return) and will keep your line from getting all messed up with pine pitch, which in turn will help keep you cleaner... You can also tie the block onto any area of the tree, so you don't need to rig from a crotch, nor worry about that crotch failing. There will also be a constant amount of friction at the rigging point, which is the main advantage of using a block... This will make it easier for the ground person to judge how many raps are needed on the trunk, or preferably on the friction device... You'll need a Port-a Wrap to go with that rigging block...
So you'll need a rigging block, hopefully 15,000-30,000lbs. And a sling of similar strength to go with it. The sling is usually just a short 5/8-3/4" line with an eye splice on one end. Tie it with a cow hitch if you have anough line, otherwise use a timber hitch... Note: you can get away with using a short piece of good 1/2 line to tie the block to the tree... Take three or more wraps through the block to make sure it won't break... That should be alright on this job, especially since you won't be needing to move the block much, though if you plan on blocking down the spar, you'll definitely need a sling.
Your rigging line should always be the weakest link in the system and it is also recommended to keep the force on the rigging line to 10% of the tensile strength... That is keep the load on a 7,700 lb line to 770 lbs. That includes any force from shock loading... Arborists usually use the 10% mark on lines of any use as a safe working load (SWL). Other disciplines use 20%, so you can cheat that 10% from time to time, but don't make a habit of it, especially with shock loads... Repeated (over)loading will eventually cause the rope to fail.
Tough to tell from the pic, and it looks like the trees are close enough to rig all the branches from 1 place.... Normally the highest point that will work to give you a good landing zone and rigging point. Then work from the bottom up and butt tie the limbs so the tips drop first and hopefully come down soft on any structure in the way. You can also tie off and lower multiple limbs on any one lowering trip.. This can save a lot of time on pines, and you need to learn how to do it safely and efficiently.
I love to set up lowering lines in trees adjascent to the tree I Am working... That way when the piece lets go it swings safely away and should the lowering system fail, I'll still be going home for dinner.
So you can figure out which tree will be the easiest to fell. Set the block in that tree and use it to lower the limbs from both trees and then wood from the adjascent tree... Normally the wood would be lowerred by tip tying the piece to be lowerred... Use a pull line if necessary and just let the pices swing into the trunk. Even if you have to take short pieces, 2-5', you'll still be able to control their descent.... Once the tree is short enough, fell it...
Then you could use a techique called "blocking down the spar" to remove the last tree... You wrote "Even in theory, I don't understand how you can set up a block and pulley below the piece that is being cut b/c in my mind the piece would be free falling for a little bit until it passes/falls below the block/pulley point" That is exactly what happens, and this free fall can create tremndous force on the rope and rigging point. The late Peter Donazelli (sp?) did some nice work on the physics of forces involved in such rigging. Its really not that difficult to learn if someone shows you... I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to coach you through learning that in writing though... Plus we've got a hurrican due tomorrow and I shpould get some sleep... So you need to hire someone that knows how to do that or find someone to teach you. There are also some rigging videos that would show you pretty well.
I might consider trying to use the big wood from the first tree to protect the shrubs, and fell the second from the ground (after removing the block of course). You could also use a pull line to fell a bigger section off the top of the second tree and let it freefall, but you should have more experience before trying that and get that exerince in non-critical situaltions... And even then there is a chance the piece could land wrong and fall or bounce back into the house...
You could also bomb small pieces and push 'em away from the house... just remember to keep the drop zone clear as you go so the falling piece doesn't take a bad bounce off a downed piece and into the house. Also plan on doing some serious lawn restoration if you bomb chuncks from on high.
And the following is the best advice yet... When you bid these trees bid them high.... high enough that you can go out and buy the right equipment and hire an experience climber, and still make a sweet profit.... What are you charging for a days work???
Whatever it is, consider doubling it... You'd be surprised how doing good work and acting reliable will do more to build your business than low prices. High (good) prices allow you to do the job right, and they take a lot of the pressure off on any given job and therefore make the work much more enjoyable.
Good luck!!! Be safe!!!
God Bless,
Daniel
Alright this one is a lot long... Its a piece I wrote as a response to a PM from Steven.
I post it here thinking it might benefit someone out there...And I welcome all feedback.
D
Brother Steven,
I appreciate your straigtfoward request for assistance and your earnest desire to learn good techniques...
I actually wrote a response before getting the below mail...
There are several advantages to using a block rather than natural crotch rigging, especially on these pines... Do you have the Sherril Catalog??? Gotta get one...the price is right too! Using a rigging block will allow much faster and easier rope movement (return) and will keep your line from getting all messed up with pine pitch, which in turn will help keep you cleaner... You can also tie the block onto any area of the tree, so you don't need to rig from a crotch, nor worry about that crotch failing. There will also be a constant amount of friction at the rigging point, which is the main advantage of using a block... This will make it easier for the ground person to judge how many raps are needed on the trunk, or preferably on the friction device... You'll need a Port-a Wrap to go with that rigging block...
So you'll need a rigging block, hopefully 15,000-30,000lbs. And a sling of similar strength to go with it. The sling is usually just a short 5/8-3/4" line with an eye splice on one end. Tie it with a cow hitch if you have anough line, otherwise use a timber hitch... Note: you can get away with using a short piece of good 1/2 line to tie the block to the tree... Take three or more wraps through the block to make sure it won't break... That should be alright on this job, especially since you won't be needing to move the block much, though if you plan on blocking down the spar, you'll definitely need a sling.
Your rigging line should always be the weakest link in the system and it is also recommended to keep the force on the rigging line to 10% of the tensile strength... That is keep the load on a 7,700 lb line to 770 lbs. That includes any force from shock loading... Arborists usually use the 10% mark on lines of any use as a safe working load (SWL). Other disciplines use 20%, so you can cheat that 10% from time to time, but don't make a habit of it, especially with shock loads... Repeated (over)loading will eventually cause the rope to fail.
Tough to tell from the pic, and it looks like the trees are close enough to rig all the branches from 1 place.... Normally the highest point that will work to give you a good landing zone and rigging point. Then work from the bottom up and butt tie the limbs so the tips drop first and hopefully come down soft on any structure in the way. You can also tie off and lower multiple limbs on any one lowering trip.. This can save a lot of time on pines, and you need to learn how to do it safely and efficiently.
I love to set up lowering lines in trees adjascent to the tree I Am working... That way when the piece lets go it swings safely away and should the lowering system fail, I'll still be going home for dinner.
So you can figure out which tree will be the easiest to fell. Set the block in that tree and use it to lower the limbs from both trees and then wood from the adjascent tree... Normally the wood would be lowerred by tip tying the piece to be lowerred... Use a pull line if necessary and just let the pices swing into the trunk. Even if you have to take short pieces, 2-5', you'll still be able to control their descent.... Once the tree is short enough, fell it...
Then you could use a techique called "blocking down the spar" to remove the last tree... You wrote "Even in theory, I don't understand how you can set up a block and pulley below the piece that is being cut b/c in my mind the piece would be free falling for a little bit until it passes/falls below the block/pulley point" That is exactly what happens, and this free fall can create tremndous force on the rope and rigging point. The late Peter Donazelli (sp?) did some nice work on the physics of forces involved in such rigging. Its really not that difficult to learn if someone shows you... I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to coach you through learning that in writing though... Plus we've got a hurrican due tomorrow and I shpould get some sleep... So you need to hire someone that knows how to do that or find someone to teach you. There are also some rigging videos that would show you pretty well.
I might consider trying to use the big wood from the first tree to protect the shrubs, and fell the second from the ground (after removing the block of course). You could also use a pull line to fell a bigger section off the top of the second tree and let it freefall, but you should have more experience before trying that and get that exerince in non-critical situaltions... And even then there is a chance the piece could land wrong and fall or bounce back into the house...
You could also bomb small pieces and push 'em away from the house... just remember to keep the drop zone clear as you go so the falling piece doesn't take a bad bounce off a downed piece and into the house. Also plan on doing some serious lawn restoration if you bomb chuncks from on high.
And the following is the best advice yet... When you bid these trees bid them high.... high enough that you can go out and buy the right equipment and hire an experience climber, and still make a sweet profit.... What are you charging for a days work???
Whatever it is, consider doubling it... You'd be surprised how doing good work and acting reliable will do more to build your business than low prices. High (good) prices allow you to do the job right, and they take a lot of the pressure off on any given job and therefore make the work much more enjoyable.
Good luck!!! Be safe!!!
God Bless,
Daniel
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murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Here's a pic showing mutliple pine limbs being lowerred together. This is an old school technique that uses one wrap around each of the top limbs and a clove hitch on the last (bottom) limb. Wrap it the right way and the weight of the limb below locks down the wrap on the limb.... Wrap it the wrong way and the limb rolls out and freefalls..
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murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
And here's a pic showing a job removing three pines... Pine on left is already down... The limbs from all three trees and the wood from two was lowerred from the shown block position. Then the center spar was blocked down in two or three cuts before felling.
Lumberjack
Banned
I am new as well, but I figure I have alot of equipment and I can figure it out. If you have the equipment then you may be able to put a false crotch under the limb, butt tie it on the underside. Then cut starting from the top and let it come down nice and easy. Try to make it break off the tree when it is at around 45 degrees to the trunk.
If you can't do that, and the limb can saftley support you and smaller shock loads then climb out on the limb (tied in to the trunk, not the limb because it you are tied to the limb and it breaks..., our if you are tied to both the limb and the trunk and the limb breakes then your climbing line must support you and the limb. Not being able to see the limb then I can't tell you what I would do exactly but you could climb out on the limb, set your block and line and lower it in steps. This method is commonly called fish polling and it can be good if used correctly.
As for the trunk get a coupla good thick sheets of plywood, put those on the ground with the tires below the plywood and chunk the trunk down letting the pieces land on the plywood. If you have a good bit of brush to catch it that would work also. If you have alot of tires piled on the ground instead of plywood and fewer tires.
Carl
If you can't do that, and the limb can saftley support you and smaller shock loads then climb out on the limb (tied in to the trunk, not the limb because it you are tied to the limb and it breaks..., our if you are tied to both the limb and the trunk and the limb breakes then your climbing line must support you and the limb. Not being able to see the limb then I can't tell you what I would do exactly but you could climb out on the limb, set your block and line and lower it in steps. This method is commonly called fish polling and it can be good if used correctly.
As for the trunk get a coupla good thick sheets of plywood, put those on the ground with the tires below the plywood and chunk the trunk down letting the pieces land on the plywood. If you have a good bit of brush to catch it that would work also. If you have alot of tires piled on the ground instead of plywood and fewer tires.
Carl
Lumberjack
Banned
The idea with tires is that you them on the side and the tread area absorbs the shock but it shouldn't bounce. Are you thinking about the tires standing up? If you lay them flat on the ground wthout a wheel the tread isn't big enough to let the wood bounce very far at all. If it does then get some econo tires (flimzer carcass and tread). You can get the tires from a larger tire store or from the junkyard, because they have to pay to dispose of them anyways. Hope this helps you understand.
Carl
Carl
treeman82
Addicted to ArboristSite
Why not just use a block for rigging down wood? That is a lot less material to move with you from site to site. I thought you knew about rigging 
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Never used tires. I doubt I ever will. I have made a brush pile to bomb chunks into. No tires, though.
I doubt I ever will. I have made a brush pile to bomb chunks into. No tires, though.
timberfell
ArboristSite Member
Orginally Written by Lumberjack:
Do you think anybody would actually consider bringing tires with wheels in them to the site!! Let alone tires at all. A inefficient idea all together IMHO. Do it right and lower the pieces, for the industry's sake.
Originally qouted by Lumberjack.
Do you think anybody would actually consider bringing tires with wheels in them to the site!!
Let alone tires at all. A inefficient idea all together IMHO. Do it right and lower the pieces, for the industry's sake.Originally qouted by Lumberjack.
That is a poor attitude. That's how people get hurt. Spend a few bucks on some training classes.
jblimbwalker
ArboristSite Operative
I've seen tires used as padding lots of times and never witnessed any type of 'bounce' off of them. I can't see how this would even be possible, but anyway, use something to pad the yard. I earlier mentioned working the tree down small since you have limited experience. I would also bet that you wouldn't be very comfortable up there rigging alot and if you did then you probably wouldn't have asked anyone for advice in the first place. You'll learn all about rigging techniques soon enough, but for now, I still recommend ...cut by cut, limb by limb.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
It's all in the rigging, Lumberjack.
jblimbwalker
ArboristSite Operative
Yeah, that's right Neb, it's all in the riggin'!
Anything to absorb the shock. Piles of branches you have to make anyway, tires absorb shock etc. i think most bounce comes from hitting a hard object (previous drop etc.) and rebounding; not things that absorb shock.
i've used tires a few times, sometimes just cuz they were in alley and easy to grab/use for task; with branches piled across to make sure the tire catches drop, and that shock is spread out through tire, not just at one point.
Got stuck with a wider than tall healthy stump once on a hill going into traffic. Leaning the massive thing over onto a stack of 3 truck tires saved the day as they flattened like hydrallically dampened to the driveway with no damage to concrete.
Also have used piles of branches on roof as catch for stuff you wouldn't drop on a roof; or rigged the piece to catch on it's own stob, and a pile of branches, sometimes with a tire or 2 under branches to work in tandem to protect roof. A few times roping like that and stack 0-2' right under and line is for leash, stack for catch.
3' high well stacked/compressed piles with a few perpendicular branches on top for good measure, make a pretty good mattress IMLHO
i've used tires a few times, sometimes just cuz they were in alley and easy to grab/use for task; with branches piled across to make sure the tire catches drop, and that shock is spread out through tire, not just at one point.
Got stuck with a wider than tall healthy stump once on a hill going into traffic. Leaning the massive thing over onto a stack of 3 truck tires saved the day as they flattened like hydrallically dampened to the driveway with no damage to concrete.
Also have used piles of branches on roof as catch for stuff you wouldn't drop on a roof; or rigged the piece to catch on it's own stob, and a pile of branches, sometimes with a tire or 2 under branches to work in tandem to protect roof. A few times roping like that and stack 0-2' right under and line is for leash, stack for catch.
3' high well stacked/compressed piles with a few perpendicular branches on top for good measure, make a pretty good mattress IMLHO
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Speaking of matress... My old co-workers once used an old couch to catch some medium diameter chunks of dry alanthis, on a slate patio courtyard area in the city... I think that was before I had ever seen blocks used in treework.
They said it worked remarkably well... I also concur on the bounce issue.... It takes something hard to make the piece bounce..
They said it worked remarkably well... I also concur on the bounce issue.... It takes something hard to make the piece bounce..
Dan F
ArboristSite Operative
Not to get off topic, but I once used a couch on a hood off of one of my IH Scouts for a nice sled while at Purdue... Of course my birthday just happened to be involved and had been at a bar earlier.
The hood by itself was slow, but the couch enabled more people to get onboard. Sucked getting it back up the hill too.
Got some pics of that around somewhere.........
Mandatory tree statement: We managed to avoid the honeylocust tree about halfway down the hill on all runs!
Dan
The hood by itself was slow, but the couch enabled more people to get onboard. Sucked getting it back up the hill too.
Got some pics of that around somewhere.........
Mandatory tree statement: We managed to avoid the honeylocust tree about halfway down the hill on all runs!
Dan
Lumberjack
Banned
Well screw the new guy. I have never have used tires before and never will more than likely. I do know a great deal about rigging Treeman 82. I have an extremely antalitical mind and can figure out about anything there ol Timberfell. I put my saftey first and then the customer. By the way when did we meet because all of yall have been ridding my a$$ about everything I right with no regard that I may have a clue. No I wouldn't go throught the hassle of getting the tires and plywood on the site, but I will remember that encase I need to use it sometime when there aren't any better options. Masterblaster, yes it is all in the rigging if you need it. I must not be to big of a dumba$$ seeing that The Tree Spyder has used them. But then again what do I know, I was only a ropes instructor for the BSA for 2-3 years. But I guess that wasn't training. If any of yall want to chat e-mail ([email protected]) me your phone number and I will call you because I have free long distance. If you want to call me the number is 662-328-2937 or my cell 662-251-9191. I kinda have the policy not to make assumptions of someones knowledge based on there age, race, color, or religious preferance. I understand that yall don't know me, but get to know me and you could be amazed at what all I can think up. Like I said call me or I can call you.
Carl
Carl
treeman82
Addicted to ArboristSite
Carl, I am not trying to be a butthead here when I say this... but here are my priorities when it comes to doing a job.
1) Safety; EVERYBODY goes home at the end of the day without injuries. No amount of money is worth getting yourself hurt for. I say everybody goes home at the end of the day, because personally, if somebody on my team is going to get hurt, or worse yet, killed
I would much rather it be me than an employee, client, or somebody who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Give that some thought and you will understand where I am coming from.2) Damage; no property gets busted up, no septic, equipment, houses, cars, utilities, etc.
3) Making money.
If you can't satisfy the first item then the third is not worth whatever $ value it may hold. If you can't satisfy the 2nd item, then is what you broke more or less than the cost of the job? Is the increase in your insurance more or less than the cost of the job?
Wednesday we removed a dying 140 foot fir, 44 inch butt, close to 2000 board feet of good wood, but it had to be chunked down. We weren't worried about bounce, but in an effort to save the lawn from major, but repairable damage, we laid out about 20 tires, which we lashed together to keep some semblance of order. I wish I had thought to take a video,as some of the pieces bounced at least six feet in the air! The tire labor was maybe 15 minutes loading and unloading them, some from my yard, and some from the tire store up the street, plus 20 minutes laying them out and tying them up....versus a few manhours of extra work lowering many huge heavy logs, and wear and tear on equipment, climber and groundies...and saved the customer at least $500.
That said, I just purchased a new 3/4 inch 200 foot double braid to replace the aging 150 footer. And may get another big block...especially as Bishop currently has the top of the line colored aluminum blckks on sale extra cheap !
I have used tires many times, in many ways. Once, we dropped two fir butt logs, 27 and 31 foot , about 500 board feet each, straight down a sidewalk. We piled firewood either side of the walk, then laid tires on the walk, followed by logs laid crosswise over the top. Had the self loader snag the first one, then dropped the other. Another time, we stacked well over 50 tires on a lawn just before an asphalt drive, which allowed us to drop several butt logs in the needed long lengths for export sale. One missed by a couple feet, just catching the edge of the stack, and slammed the asphalt, but most all of the energy was absorbed, so all was well.
I have stacked brush and tires in multiple layers, up to six feet high, to allow dropping wood onto a already cracked cement patio, even a wooden deck once years ago, I recall.
I will go to any reasonable effort to avoid having to lower wood, especially when the trunk diameter exceeds two feet!!
That said, I just purchased a new 3/4 inch 200 foot double braid to replace the aging 150 footer. And may get another big block...especially as Bishop currently has the top of the line colored aluminum blckks on sale extra cheap !
I have used tires many times, in many ways. Once, we dropped two fir butt logs, 27 and 31 foot , about 500 board feet each, straight down a sidewalk. We piled firewood either side of the walk, then laid tires on the walk, followed by logs laid crosswise over the top. Had the self loader snag the first one, then dropped the other. Another time, we stacked well over 50 tires on a lawn just before an asphalt drive, which allowed us to drop several butt logs in the needed long lengths for export sale. One missed by a couple feet, just catching the edge of the stack, and slammed the asphalt, but most all of the energy was absorbed, so all was well.
I have stacked brush and tires in multiple layers, up to six feet high, to allow dropping wood onto a already cracked cement patio, even a wooden deck once years ago, I recall.
I will go to any reasonable effort to avoid having to lower wood, especially when the trunk diameter exceeds two feet!!
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
RB,
thanks for the info and the image of a huge chunk of fir bouncing 6' up off the tire blanket...
You play a little bit of a different game than most here, cause you're trying to get paid for the wood, whereas I work at getting rid of wood as quickly and as cheaply as possible... Also the simple mass of the pieces you're working with required additional techniques.... Do the math.... its hard on the equipment and often far exceeds the SWLL on even the heaviest arbo gear, when you're talking about blocking down heavy pieces. So of course it makes sense for you to bomb chunks rather than block down, whenever possible...
And I would consider a piece that falls 70' and bounces up 6' off some tires, to be a soft landing. I've seen pieces bouncing off wood take off like a rocket.... or maybe a 200 lb sledge hammer. That'll pretty much destroy whatever it hits first.
I never have used the tire blanket, though I can see it being a good trick to keep in your toolbox.
thanks for the info and the image of a huge chunk of fir bouncing 6' up off the tire blanket...
You play a little bit of a different game than most here, cause you're trying to get paid for the wood, whereas I work at getting rid of wood as quickly and as cheaply as possible... Also the simple mass of the pieces you're working with required additional techniques.... Do the math.... its hard on the equipment and often far exceeds the SWLL on even the heaviest arbo gear, when you're talking about blocking down heavy pieces. So of course it makes sense for you to bomb chunks rather than block down, whenever possible...
And I would consider a piece that falls 70' and bounces up 6' off some tires, to be a soft landing. I've seen pieces bouncing off wood take off like a rocket.... or maybe a 200 lb sledge hammer. That'll pretty much destroy whatever it hits first.
I never have used the tire blanket, though I can see it being a good trick to keep in your toolbox.
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