Race Chain vs Woods Chain Sharpening Angle

[Crofter]

Marty of Chainsaworld has worked up some competition round filed chains that are pretty fast but they have a lot of things done that don't look like factory ground or filed round chisel chain. In comparing cut times with round filed to square filed you have to have both chains with similar length teeth. I have timed new round ground chain and new square ground factory chain from Carlton and found only about 10 % advantage for square, BUT their square grind is pretty blunt. Refiled and gullet cleaned up gave an improvement to both and then I found the square filed about 15 % faster with the same tooth length.

I think Stihl Crazy must be doing some pretty creative things with his round filed chains if he is getting that close to a square filed chain that is made up for racing. If the square filed chain just had angles such as you can find on the Madsens site then I can see it, but that is not a racing chain. I'd guess he is rolling the file and perhaps using a two file size system. Velly intellesting!

 

[Stihl Crazy]

That they can beat 99% of the chains on here. This site has 8,767 members so there are 87.67 people here with faster chains.

 

[Stihl Crazy]

I use 4 different size files

 

[Crofter]

I use 4 different size files

:greenchainsaw: A huh!

 

[Marky Mark]

That they can beat 99% of the chains on here

It's a good thing I have some in that 1% catagory. I am sure Tommy will chime in on this thread. Maybe even Art. :jawdrop:

 

[THALL10326]

Most stock saws recommend a 30 degree or 35 degree angle on the teeth. Two questions:

1) What angle do you 'racers' put on your race chains? and

2) Would it increase the cut speed on a woods saw to increase the tooth angle to more than 35 degrees?

I realize that a longer tooth could dull easier and have to be sharpened more often; but, if it paid off in results, especially in hard wood, I might be interested in trying it.

Tom

Good question. I've seen alot of chains cut way beyond 30 degrees and brought in for sharpening because they "don't" cut very well. Most everyone that files by hand and eye always increase the angle way more than they should and wind up bringing it in for a machine sharpening to get it back to proper angles. Of the different angles I've played with it seems beyond 35 and your chain starts slicing the wood instead of biting the wood and slows down in a the cut because its pulling slices instead of chips. Stick with 30 and be happy for that is the best angle for most all cutting except ripping......

 

[Crofter]

Most of the energy goes into severing the end grain to establish kerf width. This is done by the side cutter.Common round filing gives a 30 degree sweep back of the top plate at the same time it is creating about a 55 degree angle on the side of the tooth. That is a rather blunt angle for a wood chisel. When you square file it is quite easy to get a 35 degree angle on the side cutter while maintaining about a 25 deg. sweep back of the top plate. Too much sweep back on a round filed chain creates a sharper chisel but at the same time the sharper angle of the top plate tends to make the teeth splay out and cut a wider kerf.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

I have some square ground chain from two sources, Walkers, Ed. I can get my own round filed race chain to within 1/10 of a sec of Ed's, and faster than Walkers,(this is in 9x9 poplar,one cut). I use Ed's when I race because every 1/10 counts. Ed's chains are great, just don't discount some old round filers.

Do your testing on bigger wood....if my chisel chain was 1/10 of a second faster than round chain, I'd throw it away! Hahahaha!:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Grinding rivits for a general work saws sounds like a recipe for disaster... .

Gotcha.

just use a different chain/bar.

Splain pleez. ie Go from what to what?

 

[Tree Sling'r]

I use a square grinder because that is how I make my race chain and it keeps me on my toes, but hand filing is best if you know what you're doing, but I don't. A good round filer is 10x better than a bad square filer. I grind with a Silvey Pro Sharp. Everything is about finesse, a light touch and an open mind and looking for people to help you and validating them for doing so.
It's really all about people and getting along with the right ones.
John

John, how close to the Silvey factory set-up is your angle? On my Pro-Sharp I barely had to adjust my angle for what I need.

 

[timberwolf]

Found my square filed chain to be about 40% faster than out of the box round.

http://new.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=29247&highlight=zen+art

 

[Gypo Logger]

John, how close to the Silvey factory set-up is your angle? On my Pro-Sharp I barely had to adjust my angle for what I need.

I have played with the angles quite a bit with every como between A, B and C. Alot of it seems to be 6 of 1, half doz. of the other. As long as I maintain a 0- 3 degree side plate everything else is fine. My top plate angle is about 25 degrees and I use the same angles for work chain as I do for race chain.
I try to keep the side of the stone dressed so that I have a reasonably tall sideplate as well.
On the Pro Sharp, adjusting one angle seems to affect all others.
John

 

[rwagner]

Stihl Crazy,

Is there some reading you can recommend to a newbie on chain sharpening and maintaining a sharp chain?

I get sharpened chains back from the shop and they are dull within an hour.

Thanks.

I am working in a stand of frozen rock maple. This is how my chain is set up. I probably file differently than most but it works. Saw is 2159, 8 tooth .325 18 inch bar, Oregon 21 chain. A chain is made aggresive in 2 main ways, too much hook on tooth, or raker cut too much. I file with a 13/64 file to keep hook to a minimum, at half tooth I use 3/16 a hold tip of file up more than normal. Then I file raker to get the performance I want. If I use more hook I don't file raker as much. You won't get angle #'s from me because I can't make a chain cut to suit me using an gauges, but the harder the wood less angle. I am cutting approx 20 cord per day and if I don't hit dirt I can cut most days without touching the chain. Other days I file up to five times. I get paid by what I cut so a dull chain costs me money. I tried square filed but can't get performance I want. I have used race chain for work but only chains I didn't want anymore. I find them not as safe. I file different for chain type,wood, even srocket size. I have been filing free hand for 20 plus years, not even close to perfect, I learn new things every day. The only one that has to like your chain is you.

 

[Lakeside53]

Stihl Crazy,

Is there some reading you can recommend to a newbie on chain sharpening and maintaining a sharp chain?

I get sharpened chains back from the shop and they are dull within an hour.

Thanks.

Stihl has a nice little booklet called "sharp advise for Chainsaws owners", or something like that.. Your dealer will give you one for free.

 

[timberwolf]

Likely one of the best chain treads on AS, maybe one of the best treads overall.

http://new.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=4932&highlight=art+martin

A few side bar discussions and interesting but historical diversions, but lots of good chain info.

 

[Crofter]

Stihl Crazy,

Is there some reading you can recommend to a newbie on chain sharpening and maintaining a sharp chain?

I get sharpened chains back from the shop and they are dull within an hour.

Thanks.

I am cutting up a load of hardwood that has been skidded and highway hauled. Fair bit of sand and mud. Some times I dont get two minutes before dulling. Definitely have to touch up every tankfull. Whatever it takes, just dont cut at all, PERIOD once yoiur chain has dulled. You dont need any special tricks. Study a new factory grind and keep that same relationship of angles, hook and raker height and you will be right in the ballpark for a good cutting chain. Main thing is dont touch the ground. Get the wood up or cut 90% then roll it to nip the balance.

 

[Stihl Crazy]

Hi rwagner, I don't know of any good literature. Like Frank said try to copy the factory angles. This will give you a slow but safe chain. When you can be consistant on each tooth, then try some changes to the angles. One small change at a time, if it cuts better use it, if not go back to old angles and try something else. Even an average filer can make a chain cut 20% better than new.
Art

 

[1953greg]

Most of the energy goes into severing the end grain to establish kerf width. This is done by the side cutter.Common round filing gives a 30 degree sweep back of the top plate at the same time it is creating about a 55 degree angle on the side of the tooth. That is a rather blunt angle for a wood chisel. When you square file it is quite easy to get a 35 degree angle on the side cutter while maintaining about a 25 deg. sweep back of the top plate. Too much sweep back on a round filed chain creates a sharper chisel but at the same time the sharper angle of the top plate tends to make the teeth splay out and cut a wider kerf.

wow! clearest explanation i have ever read. u definitely didnt learn that from pipe fitting. well put. now i understand the significant difference. i always wondered (and wandered too).

thanks much. i could benifit from more pointers.

1953greg

 

[rwagner]

Oregon Saw Chain Grinder

Thanks to everyone for all the tips and advice.

Does anyone have any insight or comments on the Oregon Saw Chain Grinder? Good or bad, I'd be interested in your comments.

Thanks again.

Hi rwagner, I don't know of any good literature. Like Frank said try to copy the factory angles. This will give you a slow but safe chain. When you can be consistant on each tooth, then try some changes to the angles. One small change at a time, if it cuts better use it, if not go back to old angles and try something else. Even an average filer can make a chain cut 20% better than new.
Art