rec climbing saddle

[Tree Machine]

Wicked long fliplines

Burnham and Jason J. Ladude, you guys are both using REAL long fliplines, which stands to reason, being that you live in big tree country. Long fliplines (and spikes) have been the norm with tree climbers out in your parts for at least the last 4.3 billion years. Recently, however, this thing was invented called the BigShot. Those that have gotten onboard that train no longer use spikes, and if you're not spiking, then you don't need an 18-foot (5.5 M !) flipline to go around that trunk. You're not going up the trunk, you're going up the rope. Welcome, again, to new school.

 

[Tree Machine]

Getting back to your original question, what kind of saddle to buy, there are obvious things like fit and comfort, esoteric things, like color, and then purely utilitary things like,

Leg straps or bosun seat
Sliding D strap or attachment points
Quick-connect buckles, or the clunky pieces of crap of yesteryear

Every climber has his preferences, that is, unless you're light on experience and don't have enough knowledge of the products to say "My preference is...."

We're here to spike your learning curve, and get you set up safe and proper.

 

[jason j ladue]

tm,
like i said it eas my initial intention to buy a 5.5 i just got such a dealon it , icouldnt pass it up. and as you point out there are some BIG ol trees around here. i am not the most experienced climber around, ill be the first to admit it. ive always been very humble in that respect. especially i am not very comfortable working on a spar pole. sometimes im concerned that if i put any slack in my flipline while blocking out a (big) pole then the line will fall, and so then might i. im sure most of it is in my head but oh well- i am getting better. as i pointed out to you earlier in this thread, i somtimes use the flip line for things other than pole work i.e. a positioning strap. also, to ease my mind when i am droping blocks off a pole,i will wrap the line around the pole one time so if i should kick out and theres no stubs or any thing else to catch me from sliding down the pole, the line will grab that pole and mot move at all. true it is a little harder to move the flip line at times, but it isnt going anywhere until i move it-it wont move by simlpy falling on it. see? and, most of all-i dont use spikes to prune a tree. i dont know what gave you the idea that i might. ya know i gotta say the posts you were directing at me up to this point have been positive and helpful in their tone. but this one feels a little more critical- more like an attack or a challenge. as you yourself point out, there are some huge freakin trees around here. more so certainly than what i ever saw in indiana- so cool it would ya. lets keep the positive flow going. :angel:

 

[Tree Machine]

I'm not coming from a critical stance. If you want critical, ya gotta talk to my wife.

Actually, I'm more in amazement than anything. I didn't know they made 18-foot long steel-cored fliplines. I like hearing about your systems. I wonder things like, if I were to climb a 200' tree, would I want to use an 18' flipline, and why? Not knockin you back for using one. I don't care, as long as you're climbing safe.

But what I'm sensing is the person or persons who taught you how to climb may not have had all the up-to-date knowledge of the current tree climbing gear. Our hundred and so year old system we arborists have been climbing on, has been passed on faithfully from treeguy to younger treeguy since treeguys started climbing trees. That's where I referenced the <b>spikes</b>, wasn't about you. We've just come to a place in history where the old is merging with the new. 13 mm meets 11 mm. Friction hitches meet friction devices. They're all good, just some things have advantages over others and it's nice to know what's what. Better control of friction means full-on confidence. Faster safer and easier in our business means more money. That's where I'm coming from I want you to make more money.

I hear you say

its suprising how much time gets wasted tying and untying knots.

and I'm sayin, YES!!! This guy's got potential.

 

[Tree Machine]

when someone sees you walk up to the tree and whip that sexy beast out, throw it around the tree-clink, and take off skyward, they know they are watching a pro in action.

I'm curious how you ascend. You whip the sexy thing out, and with poised and confident professionalism, you head skyward. I can dig that. You don't use spikes. What do you do?

 

[jason j ladue]

on removals, for sure i whip that sexy thing out. if you really wanna see it, ill send you a video . i guess i could post part of it, but im not really sure how to do that. it was originally recorded on vhs. then transfered to dvd. yes, i do use spikes. but only where appropriate . i really do appreciate your observation though. it seems quite astute. i was taught by an old guy (65) from Tenn. he had been climbing since age 19. he always wanted to climb w/spikes. but the owner of the company where we were employed would have nothing of it (except for on removals), as he is dyed-in-the-wool isa certified for the last 12 years or so. i know what a big shot is. i just dont own one. wish i did. i know how to climb/do tree work w/out spikes.
sorry if i was being defensive/ misunderstood you

 

[Redbug]

Hello Guys, I've been following this thread with some interest too, and am a newby. I am still a little confused about the setup using the steel core flipline. On the right dee we have a steel screwlink attached to the thimble end of the wirecore line. Going around the tree, then we have a microascender. Attached to the microascender is a locking twist clevis which goes to your left D. The wirecore goes through the microascender, with the the swivel snap on the end. The thing I don't understand...what do you do when you climb up to a limb you don't want to cut, or something you can't flip the line over. You have to unhook the flipline somehow...the screw link and twist clevis are semi-permanent. You do not want to take the ascender apart. Do you use a carbiner on the left dee to connect to the twist clevis? If so, why even use the twist clevis at all? Just connect the biner directly to the microascender. I noticed the Sherrill sells the twist clevis on their flipline combos...

Dave

 

[Tree Machine]

Attached to the microascender is a locking twist clevis which goes to your left D. Dave

That's where they (whomever) got you confused. You are sharper than a razor's edge noting that the stainless steel twist clevis is wholly unnecessary and could complicate matters (I'll explain in a moment).

Checking the catalog........ Yep, you're right. Here it is.

 

[Tree Machine]

Subtle, yet important difference

Also, they have a microcender on the line instead of a micrograb. Here's the difference between the two.

 

[Redbug]

Hi there TM and the group...Looking at the microcender and micrograb...to me, they are pretty much the same if they both have the bolt and locknut installed. The micrograb looks a little more streamlined, without all the added metal sticking out for the removable pin. For safety reasons, why would someone NOT use the bolt with locknut setup on their grab? I assume a carabiner will fit through the connector hole of the microcender or micrograb? The reason I ask...I am thinking about ordering the wirecore flipline or combo. As background...I do a little tower climbing with my work, and get recertified every couple years. Tree work and climbing is a completely different beast and and really looks fun and presents a new challenge.

 

[Burnham]

Burnham and Jason J. Ladude, you guys are both using REAL long fliplines, which stands to reason, being that you live in big tree country. Long fliplines (and spikes) have been the norm with tree climbers out in your parts for at least the last 4.3 billion years. Recently, however, this thing was invented called the BigShot. Those that have gotten onboard that train no longer use spikes, and if you're not spiking, then you don't need an 18-foot (5.5 M !) flipline to go around that trunk. You're not going up the trunk, you're going up the rope. Welcome, again, to new school.

TM, I do possess and use a Big Shot, and climb with ascenders on 11mm static line. I am competent with several versions of both SRT and DdRT, stacking Swedish tree ladders, Swiss tree grippers, and spurs. There are so many different tasks that I am asked to perform in trees that having all the tools is required. Perhaps you haven't caught that I am not an arborist. I work for the USFS and much of my work aloft is associated with wildlife habitat enhancement projects where, believe it or not, the purpose is to create damage to the tree; topping and girdling to create snags, inoculations with rot fungi to create cavities, things like that. The collateral damage of gaffing the tree is not considered a negative by the biologists who write the treatment prescriptions I perform. On the other hand, I do work in trees where the damage from spur use is not acceptable; hazard pruning in campgrounds and administrative sites, old growth dependent species surveys, select parent scion and cone collections.
Remember, I am not working in an environment where individual trees have significant value, as is the case in the urban/suburban world. My work is with stands of trees, groups of stands, watersheds totaling over 1.5 million acres on the national forest where I serve. There are on average perhaps 225-250 trees per acre; that's some 350 million trees, and 60% of those are mature or older. Hundreds die from natural forces every day. I could not kill enough of them with my spurs to be measurable if I tried. And while I have no desire to quibble about it, I have seen precious little evidence of spur damage, as it affects growth and survival, to many of the conifer species I work with: Douglas fir, Noble fir, Western hemlock, Western red cedar, Ponderosa pine. That's the measure of significant damage in my work environment. Also remember that while the urban/suburban tree is most often an open grown one, that is seldom the case for me. Second growth Douglas fir are one of the stand types where alot of my work is carried out. These stands are characterized by fairly dense crowns that touch those of adjacent trees. The live limbs will begin at 50+ feet off the ground, and there may be 25 or more feet of dead limbs below that. Live limb diameters will seldom reach 2 inches. Setting lines on safe tie in points by throwbag or Big Shot in these conditions is not often feasible. We have to recognize that I play a different game than you, so different rules apply. In your work environment, your rules are totally correct, and when I work there, I follow them.
Long lanyards, both cable core and rope, offer many options for deployment beyond just reaching around a 6' bole. If that's the only thing you are doing with yours, then you need to get on the new school train yourself. More than a few advanced climbers posting here have spoken of their use of longer lanyards. I much prefer to carry one that is often too long than one that leaves me short on occasion.

 

[glens]

On the right dee we have a steel screwlink attached to the thimble end of the wirecore line. Going around the tree, then we have a microascender. Attached to the microascender is a locking twist clevis which goes to your left D. The wirecore goes through the microascender, with the the swivel snap on the end. The thing I don't understand...what do you do when you climb up to a limb you don't want to cut, or something you can't flip the line over. You have to unhook the flipline somehow...the screw link and twist clevis are semi-permanent.

Why not swap ends of the flipline and use the swivel snap on the right, leaving the thimble end dangling out of the grab on the left, and do away with the screwlink or use it to affix the thimble end somewhere on the left as a failsafe (creating a junk-snagging loop)?&nbsp;

 

[Burnham]

I'm with you, Glen. Redbug, the way you're doing it is bass-akwards ...

 

[jason j ladue]

good thread! welcome redbug.

 

[Tree Machine]

Yea, the thimble dangling to the left side would allow you to 1) Stick a caribiner in it if you wanted to use that end and 2) the ability to remove your flipine from your saddle. OK then.

Burnham, thanks for taking the time to describe for us what you do. I think that's absolutely fascinating.

If you're spiking up ione of those massive suckers, do you think the point of the spike even reaches the cambium? The bark on those trees has to be pretty thick.


Microcender and micrograb ARE identical, except for the nut/bolt thing. The reason for the removable pin is that in other aerial disciplines this may be used as an ascender, like off a chest box in vertical caving. It can also be used in rigging scenarios, and sometimes you want to be able to affix and remove it midline. On a flipline, there's really no reason to ever have to remove it, so for added safety, a bolt replaces the spring pin. Often if you order a Micrograb, they'll send you a microcender and a nut and bolt.

I understand better the use of these long fliplines now. Thanks guys.

 

[Redbug]

Glad to meet you guys. Thanks. I think Burnham has one of those jobs most of us wishes for...being in the right environment, (and I mean people in this instance), with a passion for what they do...that's what life is all about. You ain't working!

I know what to order, now. It will not be the flipline combo. I will order the thing with swivel snaps on both ends and a microcender. Talk to ya'll later, going hog hunting out in the woods. It's colddd down here this morning...in the middle teens!

Dave

 

[Burnham]

If you're spiking up ione of those massive suckers, do you think the point of the spike even reaches the cambium? The bark on those trees has to be pretty thick.
QUOTE]


To a certain degree this is true, especially lower on the bole, but with some species and some individuals, and certainly higher in the trees the gaffs will penetrate the cambium. Many of the conifers are very adept at quickly filling wounds of this type with pitch, which does decrease the likelyhood of opportunistic insect damage.

Douglas fir and Ponderosa pine in particular have very thick, platey bark that will sometimes come off in platter sized slabs on your gaffs, leaving several more inches thickness of bark still in place underneath. Spurring out is not too uncommon in this situation .

Given the opportunity, I will always climb trees of serious dbh, say 50'' and up, via ascenders. One is far more likely to be able to set a line in the large old growth than in the younger stands. I've spent enough time over the years fighting an 18 or 24 foot cable core lanyard up an old growth Doug fir to last me a lifetime. Another trick to avoid that battle is to climb a younger, smaller tree nearby and transfer into the big boy once you get 75 or 100 feet off the ground. This is loads of fun .

 

[NickfromWI]

Another trick to avoid that battle is to climb a younger, smaller tree nearby and transfer into the big boy once you get 75 or 100 feet off the ground. This is loads of fun .

Heyyy, that's exactly what we did on my first redwood climb!

love
nick