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[NeTree]

Ok, Butch. Gotcha.

 

[murphy4trees]

ONe of the local townships around here has a new law requiring homeowners to get a permit for any removal over 32" DBH... That was news to me when a customer called saying that he had a hearing before the township board, where they could fine hin $1000s for not permitting a big ash removal... Fortunately I took a bunch of pictures, printed and added captions.... the tree was over half dead and falling apart.
Here is a pic of the customer standinf next to the tree... he was greatful to have them..

 

[Stumper]

In Guys defense-anyone can sue anyone else for just about anything. And the suers win cases that they shouldn't at times. On the other hand..... If someone asks my opinion, I give it and the reasons behind it. The decision lies with the customer. If the customer asks for an opinion then follows that opinion in taking down a tree that clearly has defects........they shouldn't have a snowball's chance of sueing successfully. I think that worrying about such a scenario IS over the top Guy.

(And, FWIW< based on the pics I doubt that the tree is an extreme risk but I always qualify risk assessments-something along the lines of "The only way to be certain one can't fall is if it is no longer there.-In this case, if it were mine, I'd leave it for a while.)

 

[NeTree]

Daniel brings us a good point.

One of my annual tasks is to update the tree permit requirements for every town I work in. I print out a copies, and one goes into each truck.

Some towns have very strict requirements, others have none.

In Worcester, for example, as long as it's on private property, there's no permit required, and no DBH/condition to be considered.

In Springfield, anything over 30" DBH requires a call to the forester, and a permit process, private property included.

Sounds easy, but it's a pain keeping up with by-laws in 50-something towns. But not nearly as big a pain as paying fines in 50-something towns!

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by netree
you think you're the only one here who knows what he's talking about.

The only reason I'm here is to learn from you all. That means i think others know what they're talking about, but when it sounds to me like they don't, I try to fill in the gaps I see, and welcome others filling in my gaps.

No offense meant; I'm used to talking not to peers but to students or clients so I am used to being assertive. Then I thought all climbers were.

re kowens' tree, it's way too early to prescribe cabling, isn't it? Just one tool in the box. Which defect would be mitigated by cabling? Is cabling the best way to mitigate it? Gotta make a diagnosis before offering a cure.

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by Stumper
In Guys defense-anyone can sue anyone else for just about anything. And the suers win cases that they shouldn't at times.

You aren't kidding there.

Absolutely retarded if you ask me...

No wonder personal responsibility is at an all-time low.

Too fat? Must be the fast-food joint's fault.

Kill someone while DUI? Must be the beer makers' fault.



But that's good fodder for another thread.

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
The only reason I'm here is to learn from you all. That means i think others know what they're talking about, but when it sounds to me like they don't, I try to fill in the gaps I see, and welcome others filling in my gaps.

No offense meant; I'm used to talking not to peers but to students or clients so I am used to being assertive. Then I thought all climbers were.

:0) We're not all inexperienced kids. Keep that in mind, bro. I myself have been doing this for... oh GOD- almost 30 years! Whew, I AM getting old... it's all YOUR fault!

re kowens' tree, it's way too early to prescribe cabling, isn't it? Just one tool in the box. Which defect would be mitigated by cabling? Is cabling the best way to mitigate it? Gotta make a diagnosis before offering a cure.

Of course an inspection and thorough diagnosis would be absolutely essential. I was thinking along the lines of pre-rigging and dynamic cabling if conditions favor it.

If the tree is safe enough to stay, I'd steer away from steel. Why create an unnecessary dependence?

 

[murphy4trees]

Fortunately its the homeowner whom is responsible for permitting and dealing with the township around here....
As far as the tree in question... I have a good feeling about it.. though tuff to say fer sure without "talkin to it". Rocky... I think the tree that was topped is adjacent to the one in question... I see a lot of old wounds that are shaped like that... usually a result of a debris fire scoching the bark.
Unless you are qualified and trained in evaluations of questionable trees, I would recommend they hire a consulting arborist, especially if the tree is threatening a house.... If the tree stays, make sure you document that recommendation...
I think this pic is Big Jon in that big ash... I saved the customer $1200 over the next lowest bid (I hate leaving that much on the table)... everyone else was going to bring in a crane... Big jon had the tree ready to fell in 5 hours...

 

[Dadatwins]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
If you want to sub a day climbing Feb 28 give me a call.
You weren't at Ginter last Thursday were you?

Currently out of work due to wrist surgury few weeks ago will not be climbing for a month or so. Was at Ginter for symposium saw some good tree choices and some I would not plant at worst enemy house. ie: Catalpa ???

re: save or remove has anyone else seen all the work in the backyard? Looks like a lot of trimming and cleanup work needed there too.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster

I would probably lighten up the tree, also. Its hard to tell from the lack of a crown picture.

This is a living orginism. When you "lighten up" a tree there are biological responses, none of which help strengthen the tree.
Sorry in advance for the bad analogy, but suppose you came to me with a bad knee and I told you I'll lighten the load by cutting off your arms.

If the tree is valuable to the client and he wants to save it, follow Guy's prescription and add to it removing stresses (drought, compaction, soil fretility, ect.). In other words add to the tree's health, don't take away from it.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

[QUOTE Was at Ginter for symposium saw some good tree choices and some I would not plant at worst enemy house. ie: Catalpa ???[/B][/QUOTE]
You must not like to fish. There are no bad trees, just trees in wrong places.
At Ginter did you hear that guy talk about selective heading cuts? Did that make any sense to you?

Mike you're wagging a bone in front of this dog, comparing all reduction pruning to mutilating a baby. But I'm not going to say that removing a lot of weight can justify removing a little foliage. Won't take this thread off track. Nope, not me!

So kowens can you sell a deadwooding/inspection to this owner?

 

[MasterBlaster]

Your absolutely correct, Mike!!!

That IS a bad analogy!

 

[Dadatwins]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur

At Ginter did you hear that guy talk about selective heading cuts? Did that make any sense to you?

Yes I listened to your talk about selective heading cuts. My opinion on making this type of cut should depend greatly on species. The homeowner must be made aware of the characteristics of different trees ie: hardwood oak in your presentation vs. softwood willow. Just about any tree will send out new shoots from heading cut but quality/ safety of tree remaining should be expressed to homeowner. Unless homeowner is committed to frequent long term maintainence and cost involved I would nor do it. The operation might be success but patient will die/fall apart anyway.

 

[kowens]

because the only tree that i can cable to has been topped
this is the only sullition i came up with but it will bemore exo then
removeing

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Dadatwins
[QUOTE The operation might be success but patient will die/fall apart anyway.

It will? How do you know that? Goldang, another skeptic who I didn't show the tree's ability to grow safe and sound after a heading cut. The anti-topping, stubsarethedevil opinion dies hard. Dad, I respect your opinion and thanks for the feedback, but how will three pruning jobs cost a customer more than removal and replacement?
I must not be saying it well; too bad I was rushed to save time last Thursday. Looks like more data is needed; back to the climbing/photoing/drawing board. Plenty more chances to make the case.
PS good luck with the wrist. Dipping in hot wax really speeds circulation and healing; my wrists were judged to be 60% and 70% permanently disabled after a fall in '85, but they've worked fine since then.

kowens, Mike mentioned some good treatments--aside from reduction-- that can make this tree stronger and safer. How did you boil this down to a cable-or-remove decision?

 

[Dadatwins]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
It will? How do you know that? Goldang, another skeptic who I didn't show the tree's ability to grow safe and sound after a heading cut.

Key word here was 'might' I agree that sometimes you can make heading cut and tree will thrive. I just stated that before I would do it species of tree must be considered and homeowner must be commited to maintainence program. No purpose trying to sell a service if person buying it does not understand what is involved down the road.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

It occoured to me one reason Guy and I disagree on the crown reduction issue is location. Perhaps Guy's NC location is more condusive to plant vigor, with it's longer growing season, warm, tropical like climate. Much more favorable than Wisconsin's climate.
I see what I assume is a mature White Oak, with several existing stressors (driveway, hollow, mature tree, ect.) and I think here's a tree that can't take much more, let concentrate on tree health.
Guy, on the other hand sees an agressive, fast growing, almost weed like tree, that has to be cut back so it doesn't get so big it falls over.
Anyway, that's my theory.

As far as the cabling goes, one thought I have is to set up the cables to steer the tree away from the target in the event it should fail, not so much to try and support it.

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
As far as the cabling goes, one thought I have is to set up the cables to steer the tree away from the target in the event it should fail, not so much to try and support it.

In other words, pre-rig.

That was part of what I envisioned as part of a risk-management program possibility for this situation.

Comes in especially on those limbs that are questionable, but if were removed would destroy the look of the tree.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
It occoured to me one reason Guy and I disagree on the crown reduction issue is location.

Wow, that theory sounds very valid. It explains a lot of difference in our approaches. As I often say, we all would agree more if we were in the field together instead of online arboriculturing.

 

[treeslayer]

hurry up and just cut the futher mucker, it's a piece of s.h.i.t tree.
pick a better battle.

Hi Dan.