Roadbuilding

[catbuster]

How are you guys in the PNW handling road building right now? Is it contracted or done in house? I'm in PA right now working on pipelines and gas drilling site prep and I was wondering because right now I'm taking a Hitachi ZX470 and teaming up with a D8R and a dude with a 660 Stihl and going to town.

 

[Spotted Owl]

Usually the road is part of the bid cost. Then some handle it and some send out. Then it's a matter of clearing, scraping and stumping. The road being the spur to the tower landings, most all main lines are in and have been for a lot of years, nothing new like that going in. A big road would almost assuredly be contracted, unless times were slow or they knew a long way out that they would be needing something, but most don't have time or equipment to spare for major road work.



Owl

 

[Gologit]

I don't know about the government ground but on private ground we do very little new road building.
In our area there's already a good system of roads and it's usually better, and more cost effective, to re-open an existing road. A lot of the old spur roads may not have been used in fifty or sixty years but the old landings are usually already there, though over grown. We also have quite a bit of old railroad grade left over from the steam logging days and we'll use those whenever we can.
What we see now is a lot of culvert work. That's usually just a guy with a backhoe or a small excavator and a couple of dump trucks. The competition for those jobs is fierce and they don't pay all that well.

 

[catbuster]

I don't know about the government ground but on private ground we do very little new road building.
In our area there's already a good system of roads and it's usually better, and more cost effective, to re-open an existing road. A lot of the old spur roads may not have been used in fifty or sixty years but the old landings are usually already there, though over grown. We also have quite a bit of old railroad grade left over from the steam logging days and we'll use those whenever we can.
What we see now is a lot of culvert work. That's usually just a guy with a backhoe or a small excavator and a couple of dump trucks. The competition for those jobs is fierce and they don't pay all that well.

So there's no real cutting or grading? And it hasn't overgrown yet? As in there's no large trees on the road? So I'm assuming you would just bust in with a dozer and clear the top layer of growth?

It's just me being inquisitive from doing the same type of work on the right coast. When I was in KY, VA, TN, VA and Maine a lot of roads where there and just having maintenance done on them like the guys with dump trucks, backhoes and small excavators. But I'm not seeing a lot of old roads up here in the Alleghenies. A lot of fire trails, but not much in terms of good roads.

 

[slowp]

On Govt. ground a few new roads are actually built. In order to be able to build them, they are considered non-system or temporary roads and are torn up right after the logging is done. In a few rare cases, a temp road might be left open for firewood cutting, and then closed after that is done using $$ from the firewood program.

There are no plans drawn for temp roads. They are flagged in by the logging systems person or not, drawn on a map, and then walked and approved by the logger and or road builder and sale administrator. In olden times, any road over a 1/4 mile to be built was usually deemed a specified/system road and plans drawn up by engineers. That is no longer the case. There was one road that was about a mile long, and needed blasting and had a pretty severe grade to it meaning it had to be rocked in places. That rocking decision was made by the timber sale purchaser. Luckily, the rock from blasting could be used where needed.

Since most of the little bit of timber sold is on plantations, the roads are already in and are either opened up with a dozer or excavator. Most have merch sized timber growing in them if the road is in a unit so will be cut before the dozing or excavating.
I'd guess that 90% of the old roads have rock underneath the duff, and you will see us out there scraping with our feet to see what is under.

Logging used to take place year round. High elevations were done during the warmer weather and when snowed out, outfits would move to the lower elevations where it rained. Hence the need for rock and the use of yarders/high lead in the old days.

Sometimes the logger builds the roads and sometimes they contract it out to a road builder. That depends on the size of the logging outfit and the equipment and operators they have.


Above, a rocky spot that had to be drilled and shot. I got reamed for allowing that!
This guy could figure out complicated roads in his head and also had enough experience he could tell from the soil colors where he'd need rock or be likely to have problems.

 

[Gologit]

Luckily, the rock from blasting could be used where needed.

If you used shot rock on the roads did you go back in on top of it with 3/4 crushed or something a little easier on the tires? Or did they just leave the shot rock on top and listen to the truck drivers scream bloody murder?

 

[Gologit]

So there's no real cutting or grading? And it hasn't overgrown yet? As in there's no large trees on the road? So I'm assuming you would just bust in with a dozer and clear the top layer of growth?

It's just me being inquisitive from doing the same type of work on the right coast. When I was in KY, VA, TN, VA and Maine a lot of roads where there and just having maintenance done on them like the guys with dump trucks, backhoes and small excavators. But I'm not seeing a lot of old roads up here in the Alleghenies. A lot of fire trails, but not much in terms of good roads.

The roads are built or cleared and maintained with one thought in mind...getting the logs out quickly and economically. We'll put in a good road but we tend not to spend any more money on them than we have to.
The cutting depends on washouts and such but it usually doesn't amount to much. It's generally just clearing and grading. We usually cut the banks in on switchbacks quite a ways. In the long run that's easier than walking a Cat or a skidder out to pull a spun out truck...or walking a loader out to pick up a slipped load. We can't do anything about steep grades but if it gets bad enough we'll do some blading to get the loose stuff off.
The roads can get brushy depending on the elevation and terrain and the brush will be cleared. Some of the loggers are good about trimming the sides of the road for mirror and stack busters. Some aren't quite so good.
Culverts are inspected and replaced or enlarged if necessary.
Bridges are checked...especially the approaches. That's one place where we'll spend a little money. If a bridge approach collapses or the bridge itself goes out, especially if machinery goes into the water, you'll find out real fast just how many regulatory agencies there are involved.
Turnouts and turnarounds will be cleared. This helps keep truck traffic conflicts to a minimum. If we have ten or twelve trucks on a three trip haul keeping everything flowing smoothly is important. According to some of the drivers there are never enough turnouts and the turnarounds are always too small but we're used to their complaints. If something is bad enough to slow the trucks and production down we'll fix it. Most of the drivers don't complain about anything.
A waiting slip will be cut at the landing if there's room so we can have a truck right there and ready while another one loads.
If there are saw logs growing in the road they'll be cut and skidded to the landing.
We don't put rock on the roads unless we have to.
When the sale is finished we'll usually water-bar the roads unless somebody else is going to use them.

 

[slowp]

If you used shot rock on the roads did you go back in on top of it with 3/4 crushed or something a little easier on the tires? Or did they just leave the shot rock on top and listen to the truck drivers scream bloody murder?

Nope. I didn't hear any screaming, maybe we have gentler rock here?

 

[slowp]

Oh, I failed to mention that I would go in and paint the trees to be cut for road right of ways. A couple of them got too wide. I was on pain medication and working with torn leg muscles--ski pole in one hand like a cane, paint gun in other hand, and I didn't want to have to walk back in and mark more. There wasn't anybody else available to do the job....lots of bad words were said on my part when stepping wrong.


Here's a road that was not rocked and was an uphill pull from the landing so a push was often needed to get the trucks up.