Rope for guiding trees

[uglydukwling]

Usually, I control leaners by using 3/4" nylon rope tied to a fairly heavy tractor and stretch the nylon as much as I dare, so it will stay under tension as the tree starts to fall. If you have the nerve, 3-strand nylon (I'm not sure about braided) is supposed to stretch 30% without breaking, but I've never dared to approach that limit.

Then there's the redneck method. Use the biggest piece of iron available and apply brute force. A couple of years ago, I had a row of 18 to 24 inch poplars along the side of a building. I should have cut them 20 years ago while they were still manageable, but that was another job that got postponed until they were so dangerous I couldn't put it off any longer. Naturally they were all leaning toward the building. Fortunately there was an open field on the other side of the trees so there was plenty of room to drop them if I could just get them to go the right way. There was also a big crawler backhoe on site for another job. The operator put the bucket against the tree about 20' above the ground and pushed. I suppose the safer way would have been to push them just until there were leaning the right way, get the hoe out of the way and cut them "normally". But the operator was in a hurry (and I suspect he also wanted to see what would happen) so he pushed them until something broke. Mostly, the roots broke and/or pulled out of the ground, but a couple of the trunks broke (shattered might be a better word) just above ground level. Next best thing to a tree harvester.

A few posts back, somebody mentioned C4. Not so far fetched. Back when we were young and (more) stupid, one of my friends used to do something similar. He would bore a hole through a tree, pack it with dynamite , retire to what he hoped was a safe distance and shoot at it. He had it down to a science. He determined that a .22LR would supply enough shock to detonate ditching dynamite, but the less-sensitive gelatin dynamites required a centre-fire. (He used .303 British because it was what he had). Back then , you could do things like that without the noise attracting a swat team. It also helped that he had enough sense do do it several miles from the nearest house. It didn't do anything for control, but he did it in the bush so that wasn't a factor. He did it just because it was fun. Also, the tree was pre-split when it came down. And he's still alive 50 years later.

 

[logbutcher]

Damn logbutcher you really think your going to fall that tree a 180? No way in hell its going to happen even with the best methods. without a cable it wont work. your going to need a D-9 and a 10,000 lb test cable to even attempt that. Id have to stick on Whitespiders side with this one LOL!! Id almost even bet that the trees in main are a little different than here also.

Damn Mitch, spellchecker is your friend. :hmm3grin2orange:

Those uglies only grow in the open farmlands of the midwest....Maine has little of that. We don't allow wolf trees.:msp_mellow:

Butt: Google or talk to loggers using wedges for unusual felling. With proper trimming ( none of this "no feet" BS ) , the right hinge, aiming off, AND wedges, any lean can be corrected to drop where you want. Believe it or not Mr. Ripley, it was a full morning in one of the classes for GOL and CLP learning ( learning :msp_sneaky to use wedges on leaners. Try, then rant. No D-9, or that so-called 10K lb cable. D-9's couldn't get in some of this woodland anyhow. BTW: look up "snapping tow cable cuts deckhand in two".

Spidy is now in Time Out. You may join him.:hmm3grin2orange:

I cannot tell a lie: it was I that mentioned C-4.

 

[Stihl ly]

As a homeowner who has used both wedges and pull lines to fell trees against their natural lean, I must say that pull lines seem the safer, more assured route to take assuming that your pull line is up to the task. Just today, with my brand new MS 290 btw, I took down a 50 foot pitch pine with a double trunk starting 25 off the ground so it was quite top heavy (think telephone pole for the first 35 feet). Diameter of trunk was about 14" at chest level. At top of tree, lean was about 7 feet to the east and I needed to put tree down 180 degrees in other direction to the west.

My pull line consists of a 3 in wide heavy duty nylon web tow line which cradles the tree (used throw line and a pneumatic spud gun to place line in the crotch 25 feet up) attached to 80 feet of 3/8" shot peened chain. Pull line is tensioned using cable come along anchored to base of something immovable, like bottom of oak tree. In today's pull, after making back cut, while still leaving a 2 in wide hinge, tree did not fall but neither did it pinch bar. Two wedges were inserted to more safely hold tree and prevent back fall. A few more strokes on the come along, with me safely away from base of tree and about 30 feet away from where top of tree would fall, was all that was required to initiate a nice, controlled fall in exact location desired. To me, this was a whole lot safer than banging in wedges at base of tree to counter natural lean and to initiate fall in opposite direction.

 

[logbutcher]

As a homeowner who has used both wedges and pull lines to fell trees against their natural lean, I must say that pull lines seem the safer, more assured route to take assuming that your pull line is up to the task. Just today, with my brand new MS 290 btw, I took down a 50 foot pitch pine with a double trunk starting 25 off the ground so it was quite top heavy (think telephone pole for the first 35 feet). Diameter of trunk was about 14" at chest level. At top of tree, lean was about 7 feet to the east and I needed to put tree down 180 degrees in other direction to the west.

My pull line consists of a 3 in wide heavy duty nylon web tow line which cradles the tree (used throw line and a pneumatic spud gun to place line in the crotch 25 feet up) attached to 80 feet of 3/8" shot peened chain. Pull line is tensioned using cable come along anchored to base of something immovable, like bottom of oak tree. In today's pull, after making back cut, while still leaving a 2 in wide hinge, tree did not fall but neither did it pinch bar. Two wedges were inserted to more safely hold tree and prevent back fall. A few more strokes on the come along, with me safely away from base of tree and about 30 feet away from where top of tree would fall, was all that was required to initiate a nice, controlled fall in exact location desired. To me, this was a whole lot safer than banging in wedges at base of tree to counter natural lean and to initiate fall in opposite direction.

Right---belt and suspenders approach. Worked, if you knew the true strength of that "heavy duty nylon web tow line". Glad you at least used wedges.

In climbing lines have high redundancy for protection: UV, abrasion, age, falls pulling the flex out of lines, poor QC. You cannot know what is under protective covering for high end climbing lines. After a time, climbers and arborists just replace lines. You never know-- so trusting what you 'think' a line's capacity is, is not enough for most users.

 

[Stihl ly]

Right---belt and suspenders approach. Worked, if you knew the true strength of that "heavy duty nylon web tow line". Glad you at least used wedges.

In climbing lines have high redundancy for protection: UV, abrasion, age, falls pulling the flex out of lines, poor QC. You cannot know what is under protective covering for high end climbing lines. After a time, climbers and arborists just replace lines. You never know-- so trusting what you 'think' a line's capacity is, is not enough for most users.

OK, I'll play.

I actually do know the working strength of all components in my pull line (and I even use a chain back-up for the cable come along). For example, the tow strap's working strength is 6,666 lbs, so doubled up as I'm using it, it's a robust 13,000 plus pounds -- more than enough for my application, wouldn't you say?

Yes, as I mentioned before, I believe that if the pull line is strong enough, then pull lines are safer and more assured than wedges alone. And I do like chains for pulling all sorts of things. In the worst case if you do happen to overload 'em they just break without snapping back and taking your head off as do ropes and cable ropes, not to mention that chains are a helluva lot more durable than abrasion-prone rope lines. Seems to me that using a proper pull line to help bring down a leaner on course is elementary physics and obvious common sense. That said, throwing in a few wedges as a backup measure only takes a few seconds. But using wedges alone to reverse a leaner? Sure it's faster, but in this neophyte's opinion it's obviously not the thing to do when the cost of failure could be high.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Haven't broken many chains yet, have ya? They can #$%& stuff up right up there with wire rope. BTDT, not a good sight seeing a 3/8 log chain thru a windshield inches from your buddy's head.

I'm not anti chain, I like em and use em a lot for skidding and tie downs. I'm just saying there IS significant danger if they're overloaded and broken.

 

[Stihl ly]

Haven't broken many chains yet, have ya? They can #$%& stuff up right up there with wire rope. BTDT, not a good sight seeing a 3/8 log chain thru a windshield inches from your buddy's head.

I'm not anti chain, I like em and use em a lot for skidding and tie downs. I'm just saying there IS significant danger if they're overloaded and broken.

Good to know. No, I've never broken a chain because I'm always using it at a fraction of its working strength and I'm not jerking it and putting potentially excessive momentary loads on it. But I guess if anything stretches, including chain, then it can recoil. Makes sense.

 

[ShaneLogs]

Be careful when it comes to buying rope, Buy thick strong rope for you job. No rope is like Amsteel rope though. Stuff is super strong!

 

[zogger]

Good to know. No, I've never broken a chain because I'm always using it at a fraction of its working strength and I'm not jerking it and putting potentially excessive momentary loads on it. But I guess if anything stretches, including chain, then it can recoil. Makes sense.

I've broken them. What is worse, usually when they break, all the links have stretched just enough so a repair link of the proper size won't fit.

Never broken them hauling out logs, always trying to get equipment unstuck.

 

[Stihl ly]

I've broken them. What is worse, usually when they break, all the links have stretched just enough so a repair link of the proper size won't fit.

Never broken them hauling out logs, always trying to get equipment unstuck.

I suspect that if you stretch a chain so much that it actually deforms that it is no longer safe to use.

But what the hell do I know, I didn't realize that chains can recoil too.

On second thought and as a practical matter, I still believe that chains are safer to use for pulling than ropes, assuming both are used below their working limits, as ropes abrade and ropes begin to stretch immediately whereas chains do not abrade so easily and probably do not begin to stretch until the load is quite substantial. So as a practical matter I suspect that a chain which breaks at a safe load (say due to a weak link) will not recoil as will a rope.

In any event, this thread was supposed to be about wedges vs pull lines not rope vs chain, wasn't it?

 

[Steve NW WI]

Stihl ly, a couple points to ponder here. First, a lot of threads here wander slightly to a long ways off topic, sometimes with good information coming out of it, sometimes not.

Second, you mention keeping things well under their load limits. This is good advice, but be sure you know how much force you can apply. A tractor can dead pull 80% or more of it's weight (roughly, depends on conditions), and a 4x4 truck might come close to that number. I wouldn't use less than 3/8" Grade 70 chain behind a full size pickup.

I've made this rant before, but it's worth repeating: "Box store" chain usually isn't worth the scrap iron it's made out of. A lot of their G30 and G43 chains are cheap foreign crap that won't hold it's rated strength. Same goes for the hooks. Buy good quality American made G70 chain and attachments. Your life may depend on it. I don't use repair links either, they are almost never rated at the full strength of the chain they're supposed to fix, and the chain that has already failed in one spot is likely to fail again soon somewhere else.

Last, but not least, a chain (rope, or cable for that matter), is only as strong as it's weakest link. I used to do a lot of mud bogging, I've seen broken shackles, straightened tow hooks, hooks torn out of frame rails, you name it. Make sure all your hardware and attaching points are up to snuff.

I mentioned I use Amsteel Blue. Here's a video of 3/4" diameter Blue stopping a 40,000#, 450HP 4x4 tractor. While that's impressive, look at the bent shackle pin and cracked welds on the attaching point after the pull, and imagine what could have happened had either one let go during the pull.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/FcifJkhXpMM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Any time you are towing, pulling, lifting, or tying down, a little caution, a lot of common sense (go borrow some if needed ), and good, properly sized equipment are needed to do it safely.

End Rant.

 

[Whitespider]

My pull line consists of a 3 in wide heavy duty nylon web tow line which cradles the tree… the tow strap's working strength is 6,666 lbs, so doubled up as I'm using it, it's a robust 13,000 plus pounds

Not to be a pain-in-the-azz but… That ain’t what I’d call “heavy duty” (but I ain’t sayin’ your doing anything wrong, just pointing out some facts).

First of all a “tow line” is made from polyester (Dacron), a “recovery line” is made from nylon. The reason for this is the stretch… at approximately 30% its breaking strength a nylon line will stretch 15%, whereas polyester will only stretch 5% (breaking strength is about the same). That 15% of stretch will launch anything connected to it at speeds reaching over 100 MPH if something breaks. Because of the stretch, nylon is better for shock loads, such as yanking a stuck vehicle from the mud, and the “rubber band effect” aids in the recovery.

The reason I say that 6,666 lbs ain’t what I’d call heavy duty is because a standard, single-ply, 3-inch nylon recovery line (or polyester tow line) has a breaking strength of 30,000 lbs (10,000 lbs per inch of with) and a rated working capacity of 15,000 lbs (half the breaking strength). My 6-inch recovery line is rated at 60,000/30,000. A “heavy duty”, 3-inch line would be double-ply, giving it the same rating as my 6-inch line (actually just a bit less because the added stitching reduces strength slightly). If your 3-inch line is rated at only 6,666 lbs working capacity it’s pretty light duty (maybe purchased at a big-box or fleet store?)

As has been mentioned, anything is only as strong as its weakest link. When you “cradle” a tree with your strap it does not double the strength… at the point halfway between the two ends the load is being applied at full force, there just ain’t anyway around that.

With all that said, I’ve broken them all… ropes, wire rope (cable), recovery/tow straps and chains. When used alone, without any doubt the most destructive is a chain, I’ve seen them tear through brush and small trees like a hot knife through butter… I’ve seen both cable and recovery straps destroy grills and radiators… and I’ve seen rope take out the side window of a car. But if’n you wanna’ see awesome destruction, just attach something metal to a nylon recovery line (like a hook or length of chain) and pull until something breaks… I once watched a handful of links w/hook sail clean out’a sight. It’s usually a good idea to hang a piece of heavy carpet (even your coat or a car floor mat is better than nothing) over any “pull line” at the midway point… often that will stop, or at least slow down the longest piece when something lets go (and normally a “pull line” will break near a connection point so it effects the part most likely to do damage).

Y'all be safe out there... ya' hear.

 

[Whitespider]

When pulling standing trees I’m a chain and wire rope guy myself… and I near always use a re-direct pulley. Typically I place a chain around the tree using a slip hook rather than a grab hook, and normally not all that high up (10-15 feet). A wire rope is hooked to the chain with a grab hook and threaded through a re-direct pulley at ground level, which is usually located directly in-line with the intended fall. By using different lengths of chain, sometimes attached between two stationary objects, the re-direct pulley can be placed anywhere ya’ want. The re-direct pulley accomplishes three things, first it gets any pulling equipment and operators out of the line of fall, second it removes the lift effect that a straight line imparts on the pulling vehicle (i.e., improves traction), and third it allows the use of a much shorter pull line. I prefer a vehicle and second person (that knows what they’re doing… knows when to go, and go hard… i.e., my dad) to do the pulling, when practical, because once the tree starts moving I wanna’ pull, and pull hard, nearly all the way to the ground. Come-a-longs and winches just ain’t fast enough. A guy can do it himself… but that requires placing the pull vehicle right next to the tree being cut, engine running, in gear and door open for quick access (not an ideal scenario, but I’ve done it). When executed correctly the tree will fall smack-dab on top of the re-direct pulley… every single time. I don’t want anything that will stretch and reduce control, like a rope or recovery strap… and besides, wire rope holds up better in the pulley. Dad and I have been doing it that way since I was a kid (over 45 years… yeah, I was driving the pull vehicle when my age was written with a single digit number)… falling trees between other trees, between buildings, next to fences, on river banks, along roadways, next to power lines, and other tight spots… never had a mishap yet (but I suppose there’s always a first time).

Have we looked at some trees and said, “Naw, that one there is just too damn risky.”… Sure we have, but there ain’t been very many.

 

[Stihl ly]

Ah, OK. I've never broken anything towing, pulling, lifting, etc. Maybe it's because I'm prudent.

I don't, for example, use a truck to pre-load my pull lines some unknown amount. Instead, I do use an anchored comealong attached to a heavy chain (I've also use rope lines, but I like chains better as discussed before). I don't want the tree to be bent over (under tension and compression) before I start my cuts. I do my hinge cuts without any real tension on the pull line (although the weight of the chain alone provides some slight pull), after which I put the chain under some modest tension although the chain is still not pulled tight (it still sags to some extent under its own weight). Then I make my back cut and put in two wedges to keep tree stable and make it more vertical -- I stop banging in wedges before the making the tree fall by use of the wedges. Then I finish off the pull manually with the come-along from a safe distance away. All-in-all it works like a charm even if a little time consuming (I am a homeowner don't you know). I suspect that I never have more than a few hundred pounds of load and certainly no more than a 1000 pound load on my pull line inasmuch as I'm really using a hybrid approach of pull line and wedges. The wedges primarily support the tree after the back cut is made as well as help swing it over and the pull line stabilizes it and then pulls it off center starting the fall. I suppose what I am doing really is a belts and suspenders approach as someone commented earlier.

Separately, I do think than using a tow strap to cradle and pull tree does effectively double the working strength of tow line as the tow line is doubled up (both ends of the tow line are attached to the pull chain).

 

[Steve NW WI]

The reason I say that 6,666 lbs ain’t what I’d call heavy duty is because a standard, single-ply, 3-inch nylon recovery line (or polyester tow line) has a breaking strength of 30,000 lbs (10,000 lbs per inch of with) and a rated working capacity of 15,000 lbs (half the breaking strength). My 6-inch recovery line is rated at 60,000/30,000. A “heavy duty”, 3-inch line would be double-ply, giving it the same rating as my 6-inch line (actually just a bit less because the added stitching reduces strength slightly). If your 3-inch line is rated at only 6,666 lbs working capacity it’s pretty light duty (maybe purchased at a big-box or fleet store?)

Agreed on the light duty "Wally World" type tow strap he's using (along with most of your post.) Here's a link to the straps we use at work, under hoists up to 10 tons. They ain't all that expensive, and I plan to get a 4" for a tree saver strap when doing redirects. (I'm currently using chain, and it's hard on the anchor tree, and by far the weak link in my setup.) 3" width Nylon Eye & Eye Slings Type 3 Straight Eye Important to note are two things: These straps are rated for lifting, so there is a larger safety factor than what Spidey mentioned. Don't want heavy stuff falling out of the air! This accounts for the different working capacity than above. For those not familiar with this stuff, "choker" rating is the strap wrapped around the load, and one end threaded through the other, lifted from one end of the strap. This is the weakest method, and the lowest rating. "Vertical" means the load is attached to one end, and lifted at the other end, much like a tow strap. "Basket" is the load supported between the ends, and both ends hooked to the lifting device. This is how I'd normally rig an anchor, and the strongest. This is the one thing Spidey is wrong about.

As has been mentioned, anything is only as strong as its weakest link. When you “cradle” a tree with your strap it does not double the strength… at the point halfway between the two ends the load is being applied at full force, there just ain’t anyway around that.

The reason you're wrong is that the load is not concentrated on any one point, but spread across the contact surface. Consider say, someone picking you up by your belt. You feel the pressure along the whole bottom side of the belt, not just one spot.

Ah, OK. I've never broken anything towing, pulling, lifting, etc. Maybe it's because I'm prudent.

I don't, for example, use a truck to pre-load my pull lines some unknown amount. Instead, I do use an anchored comealong attached to a heavy chain (I've also use rope lines, but I like chains better as discussed before). I don't want the tree to be bent over (under tension and compression) before I start my cuts. I do my hinge cuts without any real tension on the pull line (although the weight of the chain alone provides some slight pull), after which I put the chain under some modest tension although the chain is still not pulled tight (it still sags to some extent under its own weight). Then I make my back cut and put in two wedges to keep tree stable and make it more vertical -- I stop banging in wedges before the making the tree fall by use of the wedges. Then I finish off the pull manually with the come-along from a safe distance away. All-in-all it works like a charm even if a little time consuming (I am a homeowner don't you know). I suspect that I never have more than a few hundred pounds of load and certainly no more than a 1000 pound load on my pull line inasmuch as I'm really using a hybrid approach of pull line and wedges. The wedges primarily support the tree after the back cut is made as well as help swing it over and the pull line stabilizes it and then pulls it off center starting the fall. I suppose what I am doing really is a belts and suspenders approach as someone commented earlier.

Separately, I do think than using a tow strap to cradle and pull tree does effectively double the working strength of tow line as the tow line is doubled up (both ends of the tow line are attached to the pull chain).

Sounds fairly safe, not very productive, but that's fine, safe is more important. Remember, though, that things happen. A gust of wind while you've got tension on your line can put a huge load compared to what you planned on on your gear. Also, make sure when going from tree to comealong to keep a WIDE berth of the tree, staying out of anywhere the tree is likely to fall, and keep one eye on the tree at all times, in case something does go wrong. Really, it should be a two person job, but sometimes there just ain't two people to do it.

 

[Whitespider]

Ah, OK. I've never broken anything towing, pulling, lifting, etc. Maybe it's because I'm prudent.

LOL… Two sure-fire ways to experience your share of breakage…
1) Recovering vehicles and equipment (such as tractors) buried deep in mud holes.
2) Recovering vehicles from deep, steep sided, snow filled Iowa ditches.
It doesn’t take long before you realize the value of a quality 6-inch, 30-ft long recovery strap… and spending a couple hundred dollars for one sounds cheap after you’ve wasted twice that much breaking lesser gear and damaging stuff in the process.

The reason you're wrong is that the load is not concentrated on any one point, but spread across the contact surface. Consider say, someone picking you up by your belt. You feel the pressure along the whole bottom side of the belt, not just one spot.

Hmmmm…. Yeah, that does make sense… especially on larger diameter stuff like a tree.
I was going on experience from recovering vehicles. Sometimes I need to ”shorten” the recovery line… and twice I broke the strap right at the “cradle” (midway point). I’ve started “choking” at the middle of the strap instead and ain’t broken one since… but I also ain’t recovering as many vehicles as I did in the past (ya’ get smarter as ya’ grow-up I guess).

 

[Preston]

When I've needed to direct a tree I've used 2- 2 1/2 inch X 20 foot fiber straps and 2- 3 inch X 10' fiber straps. These were use for rigging back when I worked ironwork. I've not used them for pulling per se, but more directing. If a tree is leaning and I want it to go, say, 30 degrees in another direction I've put the strap on the tree about 20 up the tree with a chain come-a-long in between the two. I put the straps at a diagonal angle to the tree just so the tree won't go off course. I cut a red oak last week next to a chicken coop I'm building that was leaning over the coop. I missed my intended target but about 10 feet. But I looked at the stump and the notch and hinge was off. The tree fell dead on where the notch put it. I don't care to much for stretchy rope. I don't suppose there is to much wrong with it but I just feel out of control.

Oh yeah, I have used the staps to help pull trucks and such out of bad situations with my 3500 4X4. I know it's not tree stress but I have put stress on um. I even tried to pull a tractor trailer out of a mud pit once but my truck was not up to the task. Not enough traction. :msp_biggrin:

 

[Customcuts]

5/8ths stable braid

We used stable braid here, tree was leaning over a fence/greenhouse/veg garden. Was pretty much all dried up except for a few green limbs. I definitely wasnt about to rig off of it. So we pulled it over. I did my notch in the direction I wanted it to fall then plunged in to get my hinge perfect to prevent any possibility of it falling without a good hinge then went about 6inches down to do back cut until i reached the plunge cut. Wala