Round Table

[oldugly]

Is it just me, or discussions on this forum seem to degrade into chest-thumping and pompous bragging of qualifications, experience, or education?
I have learned over the years that sometimes even the less qualified, or less experienced, sometimes even the less intelligent can have good suggestions and interesting points to make.
Some will want to proclaim their dominance in the field. Personally I feel the table should be round, with all seated there at an equal level, at least with regards to the input they offer. That does not mean all ideas are good ideas, just that everyone has something to offer. Those who would want to sit at the head of a round table find themselves frustrated.
If we really want to better this industry, instead of alienating people who are not at the level we would like to see the industry operate at, maybe we should listen, and find out why that is. There are some very great people here, and some real pompous idiots. The same with everywhere else.
I have learned from lawyers, doctors, and the homeless.

Several years ago I had a groundman who I dismissed as a total idiot. He had made several suggestions and frustrated me to the point of tuning him out, and not listening to anything he had to say. He started hollering at me about something while I was bombing out a small basswood, and I just ignored him, (after making sure no one was under me). A few minutes later I was responsible for replacing a sprinkler head in a yard that I did not know even had irrigation. (Yes I had checked, but did not see anything, and the lawn was severely dessicated so the thought of underground irrigation didn't exist.) He had seen it, tried to warn me, and I had ignored him as being interruptive and unintelligent.

Just a thought, be careful of who you dismiss as having nothing to offer. Or who would want to sit at the head of a round table.

 

[Dadatwins]

So you want a bunch of tree climbers, members of the most arrogant,bull headed, opinionated group of people to ever walk the earth to come together and sing kum-bye-ya or something. Agreed is never hurts to listen to another opinion, but tree climbers getting along with each other in harmony is a stretch by any means. :jester: And a tree climber listening to a homeowner about how to do a job:jawdrop:will happen when pigs can fly.

 

[BostonBull]

It doesnt work because almost all of us are pissy bastards who want it down OUR way!
That and the fact that we seem to always have too much testosterone/adrenaline flowing through us at the wrong time, especially during arguments.

 

[oldugly]

Dada, Boston
You guys are right.....We have to be the most arrogant of any profession I know. Maybe we have to be somewhat so to do our jobs.
(I always hated Kumbaya...liked praise the Lord and pass the wine alot better)

I guess I know better, but thanks for setting me straight.

However I get a little tired of the chest thumping boasting....this really is not the place for it. I have done alot of trees other climbers have passed on, and I've done quite a bit to help the industry at least in my little corner of the world, but I would not brag to this forum about these things. There are some real greats in here, and a little 100 foot basswood doesn't mean much to a bunch of people use to doing 250 foot hemlocks. I'd get a nose bleed that high.

And helping my competitors to better their trimming methods means very little to people writing articles in Scientific journals, and giving lectures to other professionals. My point is we have alot to learn from eachother, and many times this is lost due to our own insignificant and many times unjustified arrogance,, not to mention the original points being lost in P-ssin contests on tangenial points of conflict.

I guess that is where I am coming from....but I see both of your points well...and you are right...we are an egotistical, testosterone laden, (with exception to Bermie and a couple of others here), bull headed bunch.

 

[treeseer]

Sure we can sit 'round the Round Table...but who gets to be King Arthur?

But seriously, all our independence aside, we depend on each other for contributions if we are going to move this boat to the shore.

Everybody, pull an oar. :rockn: :rockn:

 

[oldugly]

My point...
King ,Arthur is said to have laid his crown, and sword aside when he sat with his knights at the round table...disigning the table to specifically NOT have a head. He knew that to make decisions, he needed advisors who would not be afraid to speak plainly to him, and as king, he would never be able to solicit counsel, unless he was addressed as an equal with his knights. At least that is how the story goes, (I think it was proven historically crap, but an interesting theory in use today in many companies today utilizing modern management techniques.)
Therefore the reference to the round table...as far as who gets to be King )(arthur, or bill or george...whatever) that will be determined by who he is, therfre destiny has given to some one thing, another something else...by denying the benefits of our peers because we differ on one point, or destiny has brought us from different backgrounds...even countries here...we devalue an amazing amount of learning we could be gleaning from.

By the way...Michael...keep rowing you'll get to shore soon.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Wasn't King Authur and the Knights at the Round Table the best trained in the kingdom? Were there armour bearers and knights-in training at the table? :sword:

A Round Table, from what I understand, is where the best-of-the-best meet as equals and discuss business among themselves.

I would think that a party or arena is where the whole bunch of people would gather.

Maybe its a party that some people want more of. :jester: opcorn: opcorn: :jester:

 

[pbtree]

Count me in.

Me too! :jester:

 

[oldugly]

True
The knights at the round table were the best of the best...
So they had nothing left to prove to anyone...Could you imagine Lancelot and Robin arguing about the proper method of holding a sword? Their respect for eachother would deter any argument and they would desire to learn from eachother. Neither one would hold the other in contempt because of a difference of opinion.

For example...Many of the people in here regardless of their experience have much to offer....either by asking questions or giving their answers.
A new guy asking about how to become certified, or about tax questions, or property lines, or even climbing methods, ascending devices, etc. can stimulate a discussion that could reveal a wealth of infrmation. This usually happens,,,but someone dropping their original stand and redirecting a topic to draw attention, to their qualifications, or education, or both, is just a sad case of politics and is somewhat nauseating.

It is wonderful the wealth of information that is available to workers in this industry right now. So should we degrade someone that has not read all of it, or can we direct someone that direction without alienating them or their ideas as ramblings of the uneducated?

This forum is drawn on by the highly educated and the uneducated, the experienced and the newbie. Most people in here have nothing to prove,,,their information speaks for itself. Drawing on an experience to accentuate the information is excellent, pointing to a phd on the wall is a sad case of self-proclaiming political game of king of the hill, or someone trying to find the head seat at a round table.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Old and ugly problem'ere

July 27:
....But, i say we have all failed, that if 2 say those things about 'us', 20+ have left without the respect of such a salutation/explanation; why would they bother? So as these 2 raise their hands to be counted, my heart sinks; for i have settled here, to give the most to the most (people), and have those people making me think as i due they, that leverage has dissipated.

i reach deep to bring forth some of the things i painstakiningly have wrought, almost like a deep soul searching and assembly of my experience, i need meditative kinda peace for that as others likewise that try hard to think clearly etc.


may 8:

Gentleman let this table be round.

We are all used to being warriors against the odds in the field; commanding cooperation of giants -the largest living organisms to wander our earth. Wee seem to be a breed that locks horns with the bull, and thru conniving and determination of body, mind and soul; just don't give up before it does, ushering its nose to the ground with control and grace. As wee ants stand before these matchstix! (One of my favorites Murph!)

There aren't many like us, if you can't wave or nod passing another crew on the road a block from the job; and end up up side down in the air; Who ya gonna call? i'm sorry to say, that i know exacly what Nick is talking about; and long before now.

All that aggresive energy, can be used in its place not hear. Here ye, can tip visors and toss these things around. Fold in things and views, see if they work for you.

Peace.


jun 30

i see peoples wanting to be looked on as polished profession-alls; carrying on like they were loud, rowdy roughnecks behind a seedy bar; trying to intimidate and prove each other out. i guess that is the ugly side of male competition; but think it should be channeled and controlled better! The war is in the fieds against gravity and injury i feel; not against one of the few on the planet that could rescue you in an emergency the way we push the odds. Nor against the only, almost chosen; few that can share and expand your own experiences; and also can do so through this medium.

i see the possibility of quiet thinkers and learners (with their own enrichening contributions) shying away from these loud, unsettling abashments; - short changing all. For i have felt these tides in myself; but have chosen to stay in the thin times; but what of those i try now (and previously) to speak for?

i think this board is great; and perhaps haven't thanked ya for it lately. But; i think it is great and dynamic enough, to try to be just this good positive, shining thing you have birthed, without the rest. i hope i am never really taken negatively, all ways and always try to peacefully present and explore. Ok lil'sarcasm and word-play for balance too!


Jul 07:
If Y'all wanna be the Supremes,

You must learn

the write tune.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T;

What it really means to me;

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

 

[treeseer]

So they had nothing left to prove to anyone...Could you imagine Lancelot and Robin arguing about the proper method of holding a sword? Their respect for eachother would deter any argument and they would desire to learn from eachother. Neither one would hold the other in contempt because of a difference of opinion. .

True, but learning involves some contention, where differing ideas are tested in the court of reason, where all are equal. Some may dodge the effort of reasoning by pointing to their papers, others by pointing to their years of experience in the trenches. Both would be equally wrong.

Arguing can be very educational if it is kept civil; I've learned a lot here by jousting with Maas et al on pruning methods etc. I was a high school dropout but no one held that against me.

This round table has room for newbs and armor bearers and grizzled veterans to have an equal voice, which is what makes it work.

 

[moray]

Bravo! Well spoken, gentlemen.

 

[beowulf343]

What a load off crap! Do you guys even know the Arthurian legends and the stories of the round table? (And legend is all it is.) The round table is great in theory but even in a legend it all fell apart. Lancelot couldn't keep his hands off Guinevere. Gawain's brothers were killed by Lancelot. Bors and Lancelot fought Arthur and Gawain, thus causing the collapse of the round table and allowing Mordred to arise. The legends are filled with stories of the knights of the round table being cowards and fools (Dagonet), liars (Bedivere), killers of fellow knights (Agravaine), killers of parents (Mordred and Gaheris), manipulators (Kay), and Tristan even ran off with his father's bride. The men of the round table were just that-men, human. They were unable to control their base desires and the whole round table fell into a bickering mess. Heck, even the idea of all the knights being equal went out the window because they all knew Lancelot was the greatest knight of them all. So until you guys can come up with a better idea, count me out.

 

[oldugly]

The biggest problem I see, and I am probably as guilty or more so than most...is we take ourselves way too seriously. Beowolf might be right in using the round table as a metaphor...probably not a good one to use...then again maybe it is. The very turmoil, and strife he mentions that brought to end the round table could be the very examples we are looking for to describe the decline of threads with very good subjects into endless bickering. Very good information sometimes is lost due to the discrediting of eachother.
A recent pm asked me if it was okay to tease me about my name.
This is the exact opposite of what I would want...I would hope we could laugh at ourselves and eachother, without losing the value of the information provided.

This whole thread could have been started on a premise that was misleading, and generally wrong. There is a place and a time to give credit to your posts by citing your experience, or education. However, I worry that someone who does not validate his posts with these creditations, is lost and his information or insights is negated.

 

[Dadatwins]

Another reason for the chest thumping pompous answers sometimes lies in the fact that MANY questions that are asked on these boards have been asked and answered countless times before and some veterans just issue a snappy answer to the poster, like 'search function'. I am guilty of this myself on a few occasions. Doesn't mean there is not a willings to help but just frustration in answering the same questions over and over again. Does not make it right and I will try to simply ignore the same old 'what is the best saw?' or 'why can't I top this tree?' questions. Just part of being part of an online community with new members constantly showing up. The problem is many new members simply show up and blurt out the question without realizing there is a search function with a world of info available. Of course new technique are always being developed and tested so that adds to the conversations, so there is always something to learn on these boards.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Wow, after 3 years and someone else has jumped up on my bandwagon!

One of the reason for my title as "above average climber" is that there were so many people saying that they were the best that I could not possibly compete. I know guys who are better then me on pecker-pole spar, those that are better at huge removals, better at fine pruning or pest ID. I chose to be very good at the wide range, so I can talk intelligently with them all.

The loose Arthurian analogy does serve a purpose in that it shows how a lack of humility and temperance can make any project go awry.

Our independent personalities are what have brought us to the profession (coupled with a love of the outdoors and not being afraid of a bit of hard work). But this independence tends to isolate us in a small group where we become one of, or the best of the lot. There in lies the road to hubris.

The way I've found around this is to associate with people equal to or better then me on and off the job. I get a big job and I will call another high end climber in so i can see how they do things different, get a good bucketman to see how that may work.

Go to as many tradeshows as I can to talk to people form other places. The lectures and vendor displays are great, but the after hour bull sessions are where I have profited most. Get a buddy, introduce each other to new people, break bread share a drink, shoot the breeze.

As for making a better site where all can participate, the best way is to

tone down our own responses and post in a more humble and thoughtful manner.
Do not call the idiots...idiots.
Report abusive posts with out personally responding, keeping the flame wars to a minimum.

This does not say that we should take the humor and fun out of it, just not have fun at others expense. Nor always refrain from tooting our own horn on occasions, just do it as the exception, not the rule.

 

[pbtree]

I nominate TheTreeSpyder as executive director in charge of refreshments!

I second that - and just to show my support, I think I'll have another "round"

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Hey BigGuy perhaps wee could use an 'icky at the top of the page about using the search functions; to do your own homework as Tom says; rather than suspecting it all to be handed to you, and restated etc. Though, sometimes the re-veiw and re-pharasing is good/functions too...

Of curse; in my own twisted way; with how thangs can go around'ere; i find humor in the Advanced Search function offering a "Also Search Child Forums" option/check box! Must be a Hell's Kitchen kinda thing i guess.

As far as being all ways better than any you work with or talk to; why would you want that? Seems like it'd hold your own pro-gress back sum. More should have a "Give and Let Give" altitude to reach knew heights. Take it easy; it's only the internet; and we are off work now anyways. We are s'posed to be hard workers, and this is relaxing time; in the even-ing and smoothing at the end of a long day.

But, in my time roving around free lancing; i've 'eared my share of "Who's that olde guy?"; "What's with the colored ropes"; "i thought i was your climber"; "look at all the stuff on his belt; real climbers don't...", "why put a line in first?", "cara-whaters?" etc. i've been 'bumped into', evil eyed, flipped off, warned etc. as the chest beating went on. Especially if somehow i was magically the last climber in the air.Of course never heard a short joke though(nor told any). My response was all ways the same; to where with one boss it became a set up on whoever he had working as he walked away shaking his head.

Suddenly it took me longer to git ready, pre-set more lines, some kinda stuttering problem might even s-lightly show; especially when i tripped; and blinked a lot Wilbur; witch of course all drew more ridicule. When the first few limbs dropped; the bull sheet stopped; and their diet changed some.opcorn: Silly Wabbits!

Most the loud mouths didn't use a lanyard much; and would have enough slack in their lifelines to hit the ground etc. Just peacefully do your own thing; absorb and help out what ya can. At the end of the day; turn the key off and go home in won peace. Pushing and shoving is fer rednecks behind bars; not edumacated pros at a keyboard IMLHO.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Hey BigGuy perhaps wee could use an 'icky at the top of the page about using the search functions;

We tried that once, it did no good. My suggestion of a FAQ page fell on dead ears..

Also I too like going over things from time to time, because I may change my mind on it or refined my technique.

Suddenly it took me longer to git ready, pre-set more lines, some kinda stuttering problem might even s-lightly show; especially when i tripped;

I had one client complain about my setup time until he came back an 1.33 hours later and found I did 7 peckerpole ash from one assent. The 20 min was the setup. Another, with whom I've been working for 4 years, still comments on the setup but still marvels when he turns his back and I'm in another section of the tree..."did you swing over there???"

The hard part now is getting new clients to believe that I'm worth what I charge.[/QUOTE]

Pushing and shoving is fer rednecks behind bars

Now that brang up some unwanted images there Brother Kennith.

Hey, Mr. Knot Freak try this one I've been "load testing" for around 2 years now.

Start with as if it were a running bo'lin, but pass bight through bight so you have a three stitch daisy chain. It breaks very easily when slack so a new groundman can undo the line with a pull of the tail

I only recommend it for light rigging and redirects out of reach, but I have been putting bigger and bigger loads on it w/o any problems. Seems to work as well as a bo'lin.

 

[joesawer]

Can post a pic of that knot?