Scrounging Firewood (and other stuff)

[chipper1]

Hook ... Definition ... On a round filed chain, the file is too low in the tooth. In a square filed chain, the filed corner is below the corner of the tooth (nothing to do with the lean).

Why square is more efficient: The vertical cutter (which does the work) is straight, not a continuous varying angle like on round. Look at the side view.

In dirty wood, semi chisel is the best choice. However, properly sharpened square will stay sharp just as long as full chisel, and will noodle and mill a lot better.

There are many regional differences that do not always make sense. Square is popular on the West Coast, Round elsewhere. On the West Coast, .063 bars are common. In the East, they use them a lot on small bars, and the long bars are all .050, which makes no sense at all as .063 oils better. It just "is what it is".

Round file chain is common on the East Coast because it is available, and most people can't learn to sharpen square, and very few grinders (mostly very expensive ones) will sharpen it.

I've converted all of my Full Chisel to square, but I do keep a few loops of semi around, along with a loop of carbide in case I need them. Since I mostly cut green wood, I don't need them much.

I was under the impression that hook was not a bad thing, but that there should always be some hook(speaking in regards to round chain)
I disagree, for the same reason you pointed out that causes the round to be less efficient("the continuous varying angle), it has a larger support with the round grind/file in the corner as well it is curved and not straight across the whole tooth which gives it more support closer to the leading edge of the cutter.
Please read under "which cutter is best" below. I want to be clear I'm not trying to win an argument.
Here's what I read and have been told;

1. Square Tooth Square Ground - This chain cuts 20-25% better than round chain. A square ground chisel cutter tooth is the most efficient of the three. It offers the best cutting performance of all the cutter teeth when it is sharp. This chain can be sharpened with a special file, but most pro users sharpen it with a special square grinder. It is not a chain that is easy to maintain for an average user. Its stay-sharp-ability is also the least of the three styles of cutter teeth.

Taken from here:
http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_teeth_types.htm

I wish that all chain was .050, .058, or .063 as it's a pain when it comes to different saws/bars.

I think the sharpening argument falls apart in regards to grinders as the equipment isn't real much money for a shop to invest in in comparison to how much many spend on grinders.
I also know you hand file, but many of the pro fallers don't waste time touching up chains with a file, they throw them on a grinder back at camp to touch them up.

 

[chipper1]

Tree service dumped off 2 cords in June. Nice stuff, nothing less than 6" and all in long pieces. Was a nice add - on to the approx 70 cords in my stash.

Your a lucky guy .

 

[chipper1]

Thanks
The truck in my avatar belongs to my cousin in Idaho. We restored it in 1979 and I fell in love with it. Been trying to by it from him ever since. He doesn't seem interested in my offers!!!

For sure.
It is a neat truck for sure.
I saw a unimog on Saturday cruising to the inlaws, that would be fun too.

 

[chipper1]

I'm trying to get a pic of the growth on a Black Locust. It looks like half of a mushroom, but it's as hard as wood. If I find a small log or limb with the growth, that is hollow, I make bird boxes out of them. Sometimes I put the growth over the bird hole like a porch roof, and sometimes below the hole for a perch, Joe.

http://www.messiah.edu/Oakes/fungi_on_wood/poroid fungi/species pages/Phellinus robineae.htm

Thanks Joe.
I think it's really cool if it does happen to show a direct correlation between a hollowed out tree vs a solid one, as that can help a lot in making falling decisions.
That's a nice idea, I like that a lot.
Ever notice the Pileated Woodpeckers leave them alone, wonder if it's cause they are real hard, they like the cherry trees here.

 

[farmer steve]

What's got me worried isn't the polypores, it's the small penis vs ported saw thing. Because I have one but not the other!

 

[MustangMike]

Square vs round ... In the West they generally use steeper angles for the soft wood, it is faster, but it does not hold up as long. I have found the standard factory angles to hold up just fine, in hardwood, and have heard others say the same.

For whatever reason, in the West it is common to exchange chains during the day, in the East it is more common for the user to touch up his chain (on the saw). So if the user can not touch up square file, they don't want it.

When I was auditing we used to make jokes about the response we would always get when we asked someone why they did something a certain way ... "Because we have always done it that way" was almost always the response. Habits are tough to break.

 

[MustangMike]

Negative hook will kill performance, a little bit of hook is OK, but excessive hook will reduce chain life. For square, getting your corner in the corner is by far the best, and a slight forward angle on the vertical cutter will feed the chain nicely.

I guess if you are cutting more than 20% faster you can live with the chain not remaining as sharp time wise.

 

[chipper1]

Square vs round ... In the West they generally use steeper angles for the soft wood, it is faster, but it does not hold up as long. I have found the standard factory angles to hold up just fine, in hardwood, and have heard others say the same.

For whatever reason, in the West it is common to exchange chains during the day, in the East it is more common for the user to touch up his chain (on the saw). So if the user can not touch up square file, they don't want it.

When I was auditing we used to make jokes about the response we would always get when we asked someone why they did something a certain way ... "Because we have always done it that way" was almost always the response. Habits are tough to break.

The angle change helps, but I've still heard the same. The guys I'm referring to having talked with have way more experience than you an I combined as they do it for a living. They also use square for racing and have the ability to grind their own chains as well as file. Sounds like we need redbull to speak up on it and see what his findings are .
I've seen the same in regards to the chain changing .
Very true on good habits becoming bad lol.
It's funny how we get into doing something because it's a good practice at one point, but then times change and we don't. I try to continually learn as I don't want to be a guy so stuck in his ways that I'm unteachable to my own demise .

Negative hook will kill performance, a little bit of hook is OK, but excessive hook will reduce chain life. For square, getting your corner in the corner is by far the best, and a slight forward angle on the vertical cutter will feed the chain nicely.

I guess if you are cutting more than 20% faster you can live with the chain not remaining as sharp time wise.

Agreed on all that .
That's part of the problem with Jeff's chain he had pictures of before, no hook, not sure what it had been filed with before he got it, but it looked like a flat file .
The video was showing some good progression though Jeff .

 

[svk]

I have been slowly converting my round ground chisel to machine ground square as I dull them. I have a guy who has done a great job so far for me and is reasonable. I would be happy to provide his contact info to anyone via PM.

I also have a couple of hand filed square chains and they cut like mad but I keep them for special occasions.

 

[muddstopper]

Nobody around me stocks any double bevel files. I guess I will have to bite the bullet and pay the shipping for one. Still trying to figure out the whole angle thing. Tilt the file up, tilt it back and tilt it over. I think if I planned on doing a bunch of sq filing, I would modify a grandburg to accept the double bevel file. Shoot, I threw a oregon, grandburg clone, away a few months ago, would have been a good base to try and make a sq filing guide.
Just wondering, has anybody ever tried to sq file a rounded chain, I am sure someone has, but it must not work well or we would have heard about it by now.

 

[chipper1]

Nobody around me stocks any double bevel files. I guess I will have to bite the bullet and pay the shipping for one. Still trying to figure out the whole angle thing. Tilt the file up, tilt it back and tilt it over. I think if I planned on doing a bunch of sq filing, I would modify a grandburg to accept the double bevel file. Shoot, I threw a oregon, grandburg clone, away a few months ago, would have been a good base to try and make a sq filing guide.
Just wondering, has anybody ever tried to sq file a rounded chain, I am sure someone has, but it must not work well or we would have heard about it by now.

Just look at the post before yours lol.
Many guys prefer some of the Oregon chains for converting and from what I've seen stihl square out of the box isn't super impressive and that's also what many guys say.
There is a guy right down your way who can hook you up with converted chains, will convert yours, or will sell you new square chain made to order. If it were me I would order a couple chains and a file to save a little on shipping the file, that would go towards the cost of the chains.
Great way to try it, and support the local economy. As Steve said shoot me a PM and I'll get you his contact info.

 

[svk]

I have both Stihl and Oregon chisel converted. Just like their round ground counterparts, the Stihl will last much longer. I cannot say if the Oregon is faster in machine ground form but the guys who compete normally run Oregon as it can be filed a bit sharper due to being a little softer.

 

[farmer steve]

since were talking sharpening chains. this is the grinder my shop uses. $5.50 per chain. i rarely take chains into them but i see guys carrying in handfuls of chains. probably takes about 5 minutes per chain. it's all automatic after they punch in the angles.

 

[Ambull01]

I have to see if my local hardware store will give me their barely used chains for free again. Just got the Makita running, it was sitting on the floor of my leaky tool shed for a year! The bar sprocket teeth was rusted and stuck. Had to spray some liquid wrench and hammer them forward to get them moving.

 

[svk]

Hey welcome back!

 

[Ambull01]

Hey welcome back!

Thank you sir! I was stuck in TX for over a month! I'm so glad to finally be home again.

 

[coryj]

More progress on the Craigslist scrounge. Cleaned up all of the Walnut and working on the ash. I could get used to the way ash splits.
I didn't get a picture of the truck bed but it's full. The trailer needs new tires so I have been loading it light.

 

[turnkey4099]

Square vs round ... In the West they generally use steeper angles for the soft wood, it is faster, but it does not hold up as long. I have found the standard factory angles to hold up just fine, in hardwood, and have heard others say the same.

For whatever reason, in the West it is common to exchange chains during the day, in the East it is more common for the user to touch up his chain (on the saw). So if the user can not touch up square file, they don't want it.

When I was auditing we used to make jokes about the response we would always get when we asked someone why they did something a certain way ... "Because we have always done it that way" was almost always the response. Habits are tough to break.

Yep. I have always wondered why people "touch up" a chain in the field when changing a chain out takes less time. True that the stock on hte "to be filed" nail at the shop tends to get rather big.

 

[svk]

Yep. I have always wondered why people "touch up" a chain in the field when changing a chain out takes less time. True that the stock on hte "to be filed" nail at the shop tends to get rather big.

Most guys I know do the touch up during their coffee/water/lunch break. But I am not a logger either.

I personally swap chains/bars and chains/saws when I dull a chain.

 

[svk]

Thank you sir! I was stuck in TX for over a month! I'm so glad to finally be home again.

Hurricane relief or just on assignment?