Scrounging Firewood (and other stuff)

[sean donato]

Correcting myself I believe it was Kolve chain however a google search of it it looks like it could be more myth than anything else. I'm sure this could go down a rabbit hole my guess is @Philbert would know what it is and if it actually did what they say it did.

I think it's also called scratcher chain. Interesting design. Right,left and a Y cutter. I think there was a discussion about it and other odd ball chains a while ago.

 

[Philbert]

Correcting myself I believe it was Kolve chain however a google search of it it looks like it could be more myth than anything else. I'm sure this could go down a rabbit hole my guess is @Philbert would know what it is and if it actually did what they say it did.

Several threads on it here on A.S. If it was that good, I have to assume that someone would be making a version of it still. ‘OSHA banned it’ is usually part of the rumors.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/_____chain-experts-weigh-in-mt-st-helens-chain-_____.281741/
(several more threads on this chain)

Philbert

 

[Philbert]

I think it's also called scratcher chain.

‘Scratcher chain’ is something else. It was a style of chain based on the teeth of manual crosscut saws, and versions were common until Oregon introduced ’modern’ chain 76 years ago.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/scratcher-chain.271236/
Philbert

 

[Kodiak Kid]

Never heard it called square tuned, just square ground or filed. I tune or dial a chain in for whatever species or job I'm doing as well as the saw I'm running and if the wood is frozen or not(just a few examples), so when I speak of a well tuned chain it has nothing to do with the type of cutter or file I'm using.
I like square a lot because of how smooth it cuts, because it cuts so smooth I can control the cut better and avoid hitting things I don't want to hit such as the ground or a nail, which keeps it sharper longer. I spend more time filing or grinding a square chain though, so the speed isn't a large enough gain to use square on everything. Also the cost of files has gone thru the roof(but everything else has too ), glad I have a grinder, but I'm not wanting to remove the chain just to touch it up every time it needs it.
With the newer chains that are out, I find that they are just as fast as a good solid square work grind, and that's right out of the box(in hardwood anyway). Give a new husky x-cut chain a try, you may be surprised.
I do see that you sharpen more aggressively(the sideplate angle, which shows how aggressive the underside of the top plate is)than I do for hardwood chain, that chain wouldn't hold an edge as long as a round ground/ filed, but I'm sure it works great in softwoods and self feeds nicely.
As for your broken chain, I don't think it looks any more worn than chains I've had and I don't break them, well not like that just the cutters start flying off lol. When chains typically break its because people run a worn drive sprocket or spur with a new chain which puts a lot of force on the chain as it's rotating around the sprocket or spur. Usually that's seen in the wear on the driver's and I don't see that on yours, probably operator error . At least it didn't happen when making a back cut on a sketchy snag .
Here's one I did a while ago, we were talking about how you can't take them back to the witness marks(well others were anyway), so I went past them quite a bit.

Is your sprocket bad? Lots of life in the cutter on the chain that died… Usually don’t break until the cutter is almost gone.

Sorry I didn't get back with you guys this morning. Had to go to work. Anyways...
Brett!! I can't believe you can't see the ware on the drivers. Its there!
Yes the sproket was considerably worn. Much more than I'd usually run. I wasn't paying attention otherwise I would have swapped it out. The worn wheel or "sprocket" may have and probably contributed to the chain parting. Also being as it parted at the splice. I probably rushed the splice, and yes Chipper! Probably operator error! To much WOT on an ungodly beast of a saw that's sharper than a red headed step childs tongue and stretches saw chains like rubber bands! What can I say? Its a Stihl!

I use the term "tune or tuned" instead if grind, ground, file or filed and we call sprockets "wheels" its just logging camp cutter lingo fellas', so bare with me on not using all the correct terms!

Brett, if I used that worn down chain felling timber?!?! I'd bust three or for teeth off that thing at 10500rpm the first time I bumped a four inch limb off the trunk of freshly fell OG Spruce! I must say. Your definitely a man who knows how to get the most out of his saw chains! Good on ya pard!

 

[Kodiak Kid]

Several threads on it here on A.S. If it was that good, I have to assume that someone would be making a version of it still. ‘OSHA banned it’ is usually part of the rumors.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/_____chain-experts-weigh-in-mt-st-helens-chain-_____.281741/
(several more threads on this chain)

Philbert

Yes! Tungsten Carbide cutters. Very expensive and very hard to tune once dulled

 

[Kodiak Kid]

We have a lot of ash in and on our Spruce up here from the Katami eruption of 1912. A lot of the limbs are caked with two or three inches of ash on the top side under the blankets of moss! Hard to believe its Stihl there after 100 years, but it is, and its hell on saw chains if you're not aware and don't brush it off first. Especially in the winter time when its frozen! Absolute hell sometimes. I'll try and get some pics of the ash we deal with tomorrow at work for you fellas! We don't even bother square grinding to tune our chains in the heart of winter. We just round file. Sometimes twice a tree from start to finish. Start to finish meaning felling limbing and bucking. Yeah ash sucks! Im horrified of it! It makes me run and hide!

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I think you may have misread my post. A 338 Win Mag has a good deal more case capacity than a 338-06. (and several of the new mags are above that).

I was saying it must be tough to get a 200 grain bullet down to 2,500 FPS with that case.

Starting loads for the 338-06 w/200 grain bullet often begin at 2,600 FPS and can go above 2,800 FPS. (Source: Hodgdon Loading Data on-line).

Underloading a cartridge can be just as dangerous as over loading one.

First of all, I've never got velocities like everyone keeps claiming a .338-06 will get, in ANY of the .338-06's I've loaded for, I believe IF they are getting them, they are really pushing the chamber pressures too high. There's no magic in that cartridge/caliber and nothing is free!

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with loading light velocities, AS LONG as you use faster burning rate powers to do so. The danger comes when you try to light load slow(er) powders.

SR

 

[Kodiak Kid]

I broke a Stihl chain recently...broke in a different spot though. Cracked at the hole in the driver. I was thinking worn drive-sprocket, but this sprocket is newish and not heavily grooved. The chain still had a ways to go on the cutters, so I replaced a small section and put it back in service.

The chain that broke was a .050. It's on my work saw, and all of our chain is .050, so that's what I get. I've got a mix of different sizes in my personal bars. All of my 32"+ are .063 and my 28" and less are .050. It's just what the local shop stocks.

I've never seen a major difference in .050 vs a larger gauge in a chain breaking. Typically its a tie strap failure. So the gauge doesnt have much to do with that. Seems my gauge choice mirrors yours for the same reasons, save I don't have a 28. 24 and under. 050, 32 and up .064..

I've typically always ran .63g on my 70cc class and bigger from 20" to 42" Just makes it easier not having to swap bars and chains from this loop to that bar and such. At least fir me it easier. Then this whole "out of stock" **** started happening! Now I'm pretty much forced to run .50g until I can get .63g LW bars again when there back in stock. Seems like there gone as soon as they hit the shelf! Bum deal!

 

[Kodiak Kid]

I finally got a 28" last year and now have 3 of them lol...it's my favorite bar size now. At work, I spend most of my time essentially brushing, actual falling isn't as much. I need to do both with just one saw, so I've found the 28" lightweight to be the most versatile size.

Most of the other saws at work are running 24" bar's. They get outsized pretty quickly when it comes to falling. It's only 4", but it often makes a difference.

Love the 28" LW cannon for my all around bar. Definitely my favorite length. The power to weight on a 90cc head, not to mention the balance!
Is the cats ass! I'd use them for felling on the job, but to much for the back to handle when walking down a log limbing. Gotta bend over to far. If we are in a tripper patch and dont have to buck or limb. We through on the 28's and mow'em down. Also, its pretty much the only size I really use back home when I'm down for the scrounge!

 

[Kodiak Kid]

First of all, I've never got velocities like everyone keeps claiming a .338-06 will get, in ANY of the .338-06's I've loaded for, I believe IF they are getting them, they are really pushing the chamber pressures too high. There's no magic in that cartridge/caliber and nothing is free!

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with loading light velocities, AS LONG as you use faster burning rate powers to do so. The danger comes when you try to light load slow(er) powders.

SR

The .338-06 sounds like a cartridge I could get use too. It sounds like a very good hunting cartridge! What velocities can one expect out of the cartridge? "Average velocities" for "average loads"? Nothing hot or light. Im curious as to average velocities for the cartridge?

 

[Kodiak Kid]

Tha

I also round grind since I don't have access to a square grinder. I have a 2 grinder setup in my shop where I do the cutter with one and the raker with the other. I'm thinking for most stuff ill be fine. My 288XP was throwing nice big chips last week and cutting strait so I cant complain about that.

Thats all that matters IMOP! Good on ya!

 

[Kodiak Kid]

I'm running a mix of round and square filed chain. My climbing saws and limbers are all round filed. My falling chains are typically square filed...I'm doing it by hand, really wish I could justify a Simington grinder. I'm using triangle files...I'm merely ok at it. I'm wildly inefficient at it and have to focus hard to get a consistent filing done.

I have an Oregon grinder for round filed, but I don't really use it anymore. Round filing is so easy, I can knock a 91dl skip chain in just a few minutes.

As for preferences...I like the way square cuts. It cuts faster and it seems to hold an edge just as long(maybe even longer) as round filed when cutting conifers. I also like how the square can "bite" into a new kerf...best way I can explain it is if I have to clean a face out and my undercut is short from my gunning cut...the square file chain is easy to get a new kerf started, rather than wanting to skip across the existing face like a round file does.

I like round file chain in dirty cutting or if I'm brushing/doing a lot of stuff near the ground. The only reason is how easy it is to sharpen. All of my chains are chisel except for a special narrow kerf pico on one of my climbing saws...that one's semi-chisel, but still a non-safety chain. I'm also running skip on all my 3/8 and .404 chain.

Well said! Couldn't have said it better myself. Especially about how a Square tune cleans out a bypass cut (Dutchman) in a face much easier and more efficient than a round tune. Cant say about hard woods, but in conifer. I've NEVER seen round chain come even close to cutting as fast or smooth as an aggressive square chain. Not even close! Other than winter in frozen dirty ashy wood. If you walked into a strip of Old Growth with a round tuned chain. The Bull Buck would look at you and say "What do you expect to get done with that?!?! I really don't see how people can even compare the efficiency and speed between the two myself!

 

[jolj]

II have some short needle pines to cut, not enough to call a timber man.
What are they good for, other than a bonfire.

 

[Kodiak Kid]

I think your thinking of a lapua mag, not a Winchester mag when it comes to bullet velocities.
In a win mag a 200gr is pretty light And can be pushed out quite a bit faster then my pooch downloads. 3100fps is a pretty average load for a 200/210 gr pill.
225 you can typically push 2800 ish.
250 you can typically get about 2600/2700.
I was using the sst bullets and switched to the ttsx for the reason you mentioned. (I'm gonna have to go back and reread my other post, I thought I mention that was why I got away from the sst.)
From what I understand about the 338-06 and its case capacity you would be at the upper limit to get a 200gr pill much above 2800fps. I was thinking a 185gr was more the normal "light" bullet for them.
Even if you used standard case capacity at 68.4 gr or the Ackley improved at 73gr your still a good bit shy of the win mags 84gr capacity. I'm extrapolating a but here as I had to look up a few specs for the 338-06. So feel free to educate me further. Im pretty up on the 338 win mag.
Now if we're comparing a 338 lapua then yeah even my fast wm loads are turds lol

I think you may have misread my post. A 338 Win Mag has a good deal more case capacity than a 338-06. (and several of the new mags are above that).

I was saying it must be tough to get a 200 grain bullet down to 2,500 FPS with that case.

Starting loads for the 338-06 w/200 grain bullet often begin at 2,600 FPS and can go above 2,800 FPS. (Source: Hodgdon Loading Data on-line).

Underloading a cartridge can be just as dangerous as over loading one.

First of all, I've never got velocities like everyone keeps claiming a .338-06 will get, in ANY of the .338-06's I've loaded for, I believe IF they are getting them, they are really pushing the chamber pressures too high. There's no magic in that cartridge/caliber and nothing is free!

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with loading light velocities, AS LONG as you use faster burning rate powers to do so. The danger comes when you try to light load slow(er) powders.

SR

God bless ballistics! A person doesn't even have to be involved in the conversation to be entertained while others debate over the subject!

 

[chipper1]

I don't like and will never run a round ground chain, don't care if I have to touch up ever tank, it's so slow in the cut,

What do you mean? Isn't a new chain a ground chain?

For those that paid attention... notice how it cut straight with different and missing cutters? Looked like it cut decently fast and it self fed too.....

Yep, but it had a few less cutters by the time I finished that tank, and I was cutting softer wood with it lol.

 

[chipper1]

Sorry I didn't get back with you guys this morning. Had to go to work. Anyways...
Brett!! I can't believe you can't see the ware on the drivers. Its there!
Yes the sproket was considerably worn. Much more than I'd usually run. I wasn't paying attention otherwise I would have swapped it out. The worn wheel or "sprocket" may have and probably contributed to the chain parting. Also being as it parted at the splice. I probably rushed the splice, and yes Chipper! Probably operator error! To much WOT on an ungodly beast of a saw that's sharper than a red headed step childs tongue and stretches saw chains like rubber bands! What can I say? Its a Stihl!

I use the term "tune or tuned" instead if grind, ground, file or filed and we call sprockets "wheels" its just logging camp cutter lingo fellas', so bare with me on not using all the correct terms!

Brett, if I used that worn down chain felling timber?!?! I'd bust three or for teeth off that thing at 10500rpm the first time I bumped a four inch limb off the trunk of freshly fell OG Spruce! I must say. Your definitely a man who knows how to get the most out of his saw chains! Good on ya pard!

I saw the wear, but it wasn't anything I'd be concerned with, and we cut hardwood .
The worse thing isn't a worn sprocket on a worn chain, but rather a worn sprocket on a new chain, or a worn chain and a new sprocket. I try to run sprockets and chains that have somewhat equal wear.
Yeah, it really sounds like you need some of the new husky x-cut chain if you're stretching the stihl chain too much lol.
I wasn't trying to get the most out of it, but as Sean noticed, showing others that a chain can still cut well even after it's sharpened well past the witness marks. That being said, it wouldn't be a chain I'd put on to start the day, unless I had some nasty logs to buck first lol. Heck I've bent the working corners right over on brand new Stihl RS chains cutting frozen wood, sure you deal with some of that up there too. But it was warm and I could get away with it...

 

[Kodiak Kid]

Took a couple shots at the 10" gong this evening to make sure my boom stick and I Stihl shoot straight. The fresh splash four minutes high center is a 225gr Rem Core Loct. from 100yds. The copper spash 3 minutes right and level with the bull is a 225gr TTSX at 175yds. Both in .338WM The rifle is zeroed at 200 yrd. with 225gr TTSX's. The 225gr RCL have always hit two inches higher than the TTSX loads. Both shots were taken with factory ammo and the optic on its lowest magnification setting of 1.5 power, so Im sure the drift to the right from the TTSX was me being as the cross hairs in the duplex almost covered the gong at 175yds on 1.5 power. That being said. Im Stihl confident in the rifle and probably always will be considering the rifle has been in the back seat of the crummy with back packs, hard hats, cork boots and dogs bouncing around on it for the last two weeks. But hey! Its just a cheap piece of crap Savage! Not a Weatherby, or Sako, or Kimber, or Montana Rifle, or Dakota or Custom Hoodoobly Bla Bla .... Just a plain old Savage that can handle a muddy dog paw and some spilt coffe on it! IMOP, if your rifle cant take that kind of minor abuse and Stihl shoot straight? Or has to be treated like a violin? You might as well be hunting with a boat anchor! Just say'n fellas!

 

[Kodiak Kid]

I saw the wear, but it wasn't anything I'd be concerned with, and we cut hardwood .
The worse thing isn't a worn sprocket on a worn chain, but rather a worn sprocket on a new chain, or a worn chain and a new sprocket. I try to run sprockets and chains that have somewhat equal wear.
Yeah, it really sounds like you need some of the new husky x-cut chain if you're stretching the stihl chain too much lol.
I wasn't trying to get the most out of it, but as Sean noticed, showing others that a chain can still cut well even after it's sharpened well past the witness marks. That being said, it wouldn't be a chain I'd put on to start the day, unless I had some nasty logs to buck first lol. Heck I've bent the working corners right over on brand new Stihl RS chains cutting frozen wood, sure you deal with some of that up there too. But it was warm and I could get away with it...

Agreed! Except on that chain with the microscopic cutters! Had to put my reading glasses on to even see the cutters!

 

[Kodiak Kid]

II have some short needle pines to cut, not enough to call a timber man.
What are they good for, other than a bonfire.

Save them for December and sell them as X-mas trees! It'll be an agricultural write off! I'd write of my potatoes if someone would buy them!

 

[jolj]

Save them for December and sell them as X-mas trees! It'll be an agricultural write off! I'd write of my potatoes if someone would buy them!

Great Ideal, but they are 20' high & 12 to 24 inches Diameter, so not Fraser fur.