Secondary thinning..advice???

[arborealbuffoon]

I already realize that I have gotten myself into a pickle with this job, but I was hoping to get some advice on how to minimize the suffering. Here's the scenario:

I have to do a secondary thinning contract on just over 10 acres of Ponderosa pine. This involves cutting lots of very small seedlings (2 inch DBH or less for the most part). For what I am NOT getting paid, there is no economically practical way to use equipment such as a masticator head etc. In other words, it's all gonna be hand work.

I have cut plenty of logs, posts and poles in my day. Never have I worked on a thinning contract however. To top it off, my back is completely FUBARred and I can't possibly bend over to get all these trees. That would most certainly result in another hospital stay and surgery!

SO, I am trying to figure out how to work smarter on this job. Keeping in mind that stumps have to be cut low and flat, I was thinking that a forestry clearing saw attachment on a big weedeater might be the way to cut these off without bending over. I have one now that is converted with an 80 tooth sawblade for just that purpose. I will also be bringing every single tiny saw that I can get running, as well as a few in the 60 cc class.

I was hoping someone on here with experience thinning little stuff by hand could help me out with some advice. I really hate to try and re-invent the wheel on this job.

Thanks much for taking time to read, and I eagerly await any and all replies (including the "yer a dumbazz" posts). I am not afraid.......yet!

 

[slowp]

I worked on a precommercial thinning crew in a former life. We used long bow bars. We were in Eastern WA--pine country and we were supposed to average an acre a day in production--that's per person. We could do that in the small stuff.

We used bow saws. I believe they were 24" long. One of the guys had used a clearing type blade like a weedeater in the past, and he claimed he could work faster with it, as long as he was in seedlings. But he used a saw because that's what we had. Our stumps had to be 6" or under. Sounds like you need to get lower.

Crews now use regular bars on their saws. I think bow bars have a bad reputation and are hard to come by.

Thinning is pretty easy mental wise. Pick out your leave tree and dispatch all others around it for whatever spacing you want. I was able to do as much as the men, once I figured out how to run the saw, and got in shape.

Our crew became surly and mutinous when our supervisor, who was deathly afraid of chainsaws, insisted we switch to loppers. After a day, we were back on the saws.

 

[arborealbuffoon]

I do know that guys used to use those bow bars 20 years ago out there, but I honestly haven't even heard of such a thing lately. Seems like those things have been relegated to the realm of the collectors these days.

 

[madhatte]

Our crew became surly and mutinous when our supervisor, who was deathly afraid of chainsaws, insisted we switch to loppers. After a day, we were back on the saws.

We had the same thing happen here.

Another good option is a hedge trimmer. The HS81R has a 30" blade and makes quick work of anything up to 1" in diameter. We use them a lot for trails and for releasing seedlings from broom overstory, as well as some use in clearing firebreaks. None of our trimmers have ever seen an actual hedge!

 

[northmanlogging]

machete or a brush axe? skill saw blade on a gear drive weed eater. Machete not to hard to pack with yer bigger saw and works good on anything up to 3" with the proper swing

 

[imagineero]

I worked thinning on radiata's in new zealand. It was paid hourly and the rate was ok, but you were expected to be quick and good at it. We never did anything that small, most of the stuff was thinned at around 14 years and a second thinning at 20+. The thinning was mostly for defect trees since they weren't heavily overplanted.

I'd be thinking the smallest saw you could get, with the shortest bar. Don't rule out a 200T with a 12". 2" is too big to be able to quickly get the work done with a rotary blade. Don't bend at the waist; make sure you're wearing well padded chaps or wear knee pads, then go down on one knee. If you're thinning heavily you maybe be able to take out 3 or 4 before standing. Going with a saw means more getting down on your knees but you're going to blast them out in a second.

Lopper pruning is every bit as fast as chainsaw pruning so long as you have a regular supply of methaphetamine.

Shaun

 

[arborealbuffoon]

I worked thinning on radiata's in new zealand. It was paid hourly and the rate was ok, but you were expected to be quick and good at it. We never did anything that small, most of the stuff was thinned at around 14 years and a second thinning at 20+. The thinning was mostly for defect trees since they weren't heavily overplanted.

I'd be thinking the smallest saw you could get, with the shortest bar. Don't rule out a 200T with a 12". 2" is too big to be able to quickly get the work done with a rotary blade. Don't bend at the waist; make sure you're wearing well padded chaps or wear knee pads, then go down on one knee. If you're thinning heavily you maybe be able to take out 3 or 4 before standing. Going with a saw means more getting down on your knees but you're going to blast them out in a second.

Lopper pruning is every bit as fast as chainsaw pruning so long as you have a regular supply of methaphetamine.

Shaun

I totally agree with all that you said, except I really don't like meth or speed of any kind. Just aint my bag, I guess.

I have a small handful of tiny saws running 3/8 lo pro. I have two 011's, one in top handle and one a rear. Since I will be WAY out in the sticks, I am taking a pile of saws out there. As stated before, I have a couple saws in the 60 cc range as well. They will certainly knock little stuff down in a hurry, but I doubt I am man enough to carry one for 8 or 10 hours.

I really appreciate all the feedback, and I guess I will take every tool I have and kinda see what works best. I'd much rather cut logs, but no one's buyin' right now. Stuff is standing in the woods going to waste. (lots and lots of beetle kill out there)

 

[KiwiBro]

Here's one from left-field

What's the terrain like? Is it hilly enough that you could actually use a long bar on your bigger saw and strap a hook on the end of a shoulder harness/pack that then hooks to the wrap handle of the saw to take most of the weight? If there was enough strap so the saw hung about waist height or slightly above, and if the bar was long enough that you could just use the tip on uphill trees to get the level cuts you needed and you had the hill slope to make it feasible and the wind was between 5.7 and 6.2 knots from the NNE, it might just work and be productive.

I found something like this a welcome occasional relief for my back when dropping small stuff on about 5 Ha of steep-ish terrain. I put the 36" bar on my 7900 and made a strap hanging off my pack to take most of the weight of the powerhead.

Your mileage may vary.

No, I'm not drunk...yet.

 

[RandyMac]

Set a fire, that will do the job.

 

[KiwiBro]

Spray 'em?

I won't tell if you wont.

 

[KiwiBro]

There's got to be some sort of power lopper that can be set up on a pole or some sort of ratchet-actioning lopper you can bolt poles to the handles (cross the poles and pin them at the junction point for some serious leverage).

Clear as mud?

 

[imagineero]

I totally agree with all that you said, except I really don't like meth or speed of any kind. Just aint my bag, I guess.

I should have put a little smiley face after the comment I guess. It was tongue in cheek, but that's the way a lot of lopper crews seemed to manage in NZ when I was there. I didn't stick it out long because they were all doing 3 or 4 to my 1.

Shaun

 

[heartwoodaus]

I spent 8 years in BC doing exactly what you've described, and in thick doghair and small stems you can't beat a clearing saw. You have to keep the saw revving, but in everything up to 4" wood you'll never look back. On steep ground a chainsaw is better, but anything reasonably flat and the clearing saw will kill it. And you get nice low stumps without bending over. There is a bit of a learning curve, but once you figure it out...

 

[StihlKiwi]

I should have put a little smiley face after the comment I guess. It was tongue in cheek, but that's the way a lot of lopper crews seemed to manage in NZ when I was there. I didn't stick it out long because they were all doing 3 or 4 to my 1.

Shaun

Supposedly waste thinning work is the best paying job in the bush, going on $ a week. Doesn't really take into account the work those lads put in, or the cost of meth :msp_tongue: but they sure work hard don't they

You must have been in some mongrel forests to be thinning 20 yr old radiata, I don't envy that one bit

 

[imagineero]

Supposedly waste thinning work is the best paying job in the bush, going on $ a week. Doesn't really take into account the work those lads put in, or the cost of meth :msp_tongue: but they sure work hard don't they

You must have been in some mongrel forests to be thinning 20 yr old radiata, I don't envy that one bit

Mostly we were pruning. Lopper pruning for the most part, though if they left it too long it was chainsaw pruning. First lift about $1, second and third lift might get up to $1.40 a tree. 30-40 branches for a lift. It's a hard way to make a dollar for sure. Real mogrel forests, mostly on land you can't graze or grow anything on. Steep scraggy hillsides, filled with gorse.

Usually one guy on the crew is thinning. It's mostly paid per hour and the money is pretty good. You've got to be quick and accurate with your falling though, and have an eye for defect trees, and spacing. I'd take thinning over pruning any day, but I'm getting older and fatter.

Shaun

 

[arborealbuffoon]

Unfortunately, this job pays a set lump sum once my work passes muster.

This is on mixed topography, with some steep rocky patches as well as some pretty flat and wide open spaces.

They don't need to replant or reseed out there, as those Ponderosas grow like weeds once there is some space and light after a harvest cycle. I think the specs call for a 14 foot spacing, and it will be easy for me to select for the better specimens.

I will have everything but a lopper with me. I think I might go buy a couple more clearing saw blades. My luck, I will run that thing straight into the rocks right off the bat.

I did think about a few gallons of diesel fuel, but as dry as it is there is absolutely no fire allowed. Plus, once they pin the fire on me, I will spend the rest of my miserable life in the Sioux Falls Penitentiary. They take that stuff REALLY seriously out there and for good reason.

Additionally, I have to go get some screen to re-install the spark arrestors that some meathead ripped out of the little saws. Back in the 80's when I was out there logging, the ranger used to show up unannounced and pull our mufflers right on the spot to verify the screens. Getting caught with no spark arrestor is NO GOOD! Oh, and I gotta remember to bring my shovels and fire extinguishers to finish out the required equipment.

I am certainly not getting paid nearly enough to risk impounded saws, fines, and a bunch of other static. Hope this goes fairly well, as I will be doing really good to make 1.50 per hour after this crap is all said and done. Anyone looking for some miserable work that barely pays?????

 

[jczv]

I spent 8 years in BC doing exactly what you've described, and in thick doghair and small stems you can't beat a clearing saw. You have to keep the saw revving, but in everything up to 4" wood you'll never look back. On steep ground a chainsaw is better, but anything reasonably flat and the clearing saw will kill it. And you get nice low stumps without bending over. There is a bit of a learning curve, but once you figure it out...

Ditto, if you can get your hands on a decent clearing saw/brush cutter - something with bike handles, harness and at least 30cc you'll be basically walking around without slowing down. I have a used old husqv 232r I picked up for $150 and it cuts buckthorn (which is much harder) up to 4". Did a couple miles of overgrown fenceline this summer in my free time and can't even picture trying to do that bending down all day. I'd also get a 24 tooth blade you can resharpen instead of a scratcher blade.

Take it for what it's worth (I'm not pretending to be a professional it's just been a useful tool for me that seems to match what your looking to do)

 

[floyd]

String trimmer with a saw blade on it. Somewhere around 30cc should be big enough.

I thinned lots of small diameter stuff with a T-27 Shindiawa.

 

[Tnalp]

Stihl FS 250

Stihl FS 250.

About 40 cc. Throttle on the shaft. Very manoeuvrable. can be used with or without harness for uneven ground. Good for up to about 3" Diameter.

Highly recommended!

 

[arborealbuffoon]

Postscript: the Gypsy Wood Wh#re returns from the Paha Sapa

Well, a big hats off to all the advice from you guys. As it turns out, the Echo straight shaft trimmers with the arbor kit was EXACTLY what the doctor ordered. I started out with a scratcher blade, but quickly went to the 8 inch resharpenable brush blades. You simply use a 7/32 saw file on them. I could sever around 4 two inch pines with one left-to-right swath. Then you gotta quickly pull your saw head out before the trees fall over on top of it. A learning curve, no doubt.

Since the thinning prescription called for trees up to 9 inches DBH, there ended up being a bit of chainsaw work involved as well. I found that the ideal saw was around 44 ccs with very aggressive chain. Light enough to hump around, yet enough balls to destroy post sized trees in a flash. Burned one tank with a little 011, but it was just not aggressive enough with the 3/8 lo-pro. Ended up with the bigger saw running .325 round ground chisel. Most excellent, I say! To top it all off, I only burned 5 tanks of chainsaw gas on the whole 11 acres.

That doghair was so thick that you couldn't have squeezed a house cat in with a pry bar. The mental struggle was harder than the actual work, and certain chemical adjustments were necessary to maintain morale. This Arborealbuffoon adventure was co-sponsored by the Busch Light Racing Team and certain unmentionable natural herbal supplements. 4:20 ALWAYS happens at least twice each day, ya know........

It ended up taking about 4 man hours per acre, so I did end up making a decent hourly wage. However, after deducting for the aforementioned "chemical expenses" and all the #### Cheney Juice I burned, my hourly fell off considerably. Don't try this at home, or anywhere else for that matter.

A big big thank you to all who gave such good advice on equipment choices. If I had not discovered the Angry Weedeaters on Crack, I'd STILL be out there on my knees.