Seeking advice for pollarded eucalyptus

[treevet]

Welcome semi--you are so right; this multichromaticity is so difficult to sort out; life would be so much nicer and neater and safe and secure if it were only black and white. Standards evolve from the field slowly and gradually. Because they are by their nature very conservative, they lag behind in practice.

Some countries with dynamic (no pun) individuals involved may go overboard in adopting new technology, www.sherrilltree.com/.../German-Tree-Care-Standards-on-New-Cabling-Systems-Revised - while other countries, and individuals, resist change.

When intelligent people already doing the job do not venture out of their sandboxes and chill their emotions enough to take part in the evolution of the standards, the industry :looser: , needed change does not happen, and we are stuck with recommendations for lag bolts in soft wood, for instance, and dynamic systems only mentioned in passing, until next time around.

(Jon did not make the leap to take that personally, so I doubt he needs to be rescued with counterattacks. That was a blunder from down under, stirring spit into this thread. That spit does not belong here. Pugnacity oke: presides in the litterbox of Oz, where the Wizard's whims win out every time. But we are not Munchkins, and we don't need Toto to reveal that naked fraud. Pay no attention to that :censored: behind the curtain!)

Black and white seldom works, even the Monkees :monkey: finally discovered that we have to sort out Shades Of Gray

by Barry Mann & Cynthia Weil
When the world and I were young, just yesterday,
Life was such a simple game, a child could play.
It was easy then to tell right from wrong,
Easy then to tell weak from strong,
When a man should stand and fight or just go along.
But today there is no day or night,
Today there is no dark or light,
Today there is no black or white, only shades of gray.
I remember when the answer seemed so clear,
We had never lived with doubt or tasted fear.
It was easy then to tell truth from lies,
Selling-out from compromise,
Who to love and who to hate, the foolish from the wise.
But today there is no day or night,
Today there is no dark or light,
Today there is no black or white, only shades of gray.

It is just fascinating to me how you beeatch about personal attacks and going off topic to the detriment of a thread .....

Then you constantly make personal attacks and go off topics and filibuster with your lame song references. You a big Monkees fan are you TS?

 

[treeseer]

well gosh if you're not amused then just ski[p it; why copy it?

i''ll be doing some inspections of dynamic systems this week; will post one and let you guys shred it apart faster than a squirrel on speed! It'll be a TreeSave system, attached in next post if it fits.

Here is an old TCI piece on speccing cabling using ANSI--how's it look, Jon?

another from Germany on dynamic--barrels of snake oil those Germans are swilling, eh?

Then another on steel.

 

[Ekka]

Dynamic cabling fall arrest .... there's many options.

 

[jomoco]

So I watched Ekka's dynamic cabling vid, he admits there's no real structural defects in any of the trees to be cabled, but that installing the dynamic system is somehow justified for the customer's peace of mind?

Does your customer realise that the uncabled trees will put on more tension and compression wood now than the dynamic cabled trees will Ekka? Do you deny the truth of this?

And now that his cabled trees will be weaker than the uncabled trees, what will happen if one of the synthetic ropes fail, and it is exposed to the real force of the wind with weakened support?

Who is responsible for weakening those trees, for profit?

You're a great vid producer Ekka, I just disagree with your fundamental take on reaction wood ever being increased through artificial support.

The uncabled natural tree will always produce more tension and compression wood.

If there's no defect, there's no valid reason to cable it in terms of benefit to the tree.

jomoco

 

[Ekka]

The abundance of your ignorance is clearly demonstrated, thank you.

 

[treevet]

The abundance of your ignorance is clearly demonstrated, thank you.

I cry ....FOUL...on personal attack on valid counterpoints.

Also what if the property ownership changes or the installer gets busy and forgets about where he has these systems strewn all over town. Looks like a sure stem girdling future for this tree (not so with static). There is no reason not to put in a static cable if there is a defect such a weak co dom here and the installation time after watching this, would probably be won by the static (esp w 2 guys). Wound inconsequential no matter the "poor compartmentalizer".

 

[outofmytree]

It's a spot on analogy for even a beginning arborist mate.

Why do young potted nursery trees need to be staked after planting?

Because they were propagated in a controlled wind sheltered environment?

Why are natural seedling trees able to grow structurally robust in nature with no staking whatsoever?

It's because exposure to wind causes dynamic movement and forces to be applied on the wood that it REACTS to by putting on more mass in the form of tension or compression wood.

Any time you shelter that tree by limiting the natural forces exerted on it, it becomes dependent on that support compared to an unsupported tree, which is why cabling can only be justified when a REAL structural fault in the tree actually exists.

You're selling snake oil everytime you sell a dynamic cabling job mate.

jomoco

Exactly why I asked if the juxtaposition was intentional. I suspected, and you have now shown, that you don't understand what a dynamic cabling system actually does.

Taking your analogy of a sapling exposed to wind, removing the stake and ties early is vital to allowing the tree to adapt to its enviroment. I agree 100%.

Now lets discuss this in light of the OP. A number of (suggested at the time E.camaldulensis) have been topped and are in need of remedial pruning and/or removing. For those trees which are able to be saved but could, in the event of a failure, present a danger to people or property, I suggested the installation of dynamic cabling systems.

Correct installation of a dynamic cabling system does not interfere with the natural movement of the tree so it encourages the developement of reaction wood. At the same time, it will catch a failed limb and prevent it from hitting the ground, or a person or a house or a car or a... you get the picture.

As to the issue of girdling, other than Treevets valid concern over systems left untouched for years due to installer or owner neglect, a correctly installed system has sufficient play to allow for this eventuality.

Of course if the sytem is incorrectly installed it will be as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike, or if you prefer, a static system in a creaky old softwood anchored with j-lags.

 

[jomoco]

Taking your analogy of a sapling exposed to wind, removing the stake and ties early is vital to allowing the tree to adapt to its enviroment. I agree 100%.

Now lets discuss this in light of the OP. A number of (suggested at the time E.camaldulensis) have been topped and are in need of remedial pruning and/or removing. For those trees which are able to be saved but could, in the event of a failure, present a danger to people or property, I suggested the installation of dynamic cabling systems.

And once again, an old school veteran like me, would logically conclude that the topped eucs all have real and tangible structural defects. And as I have done on dozens of topped eucs in the past, I choose the 3-5 most robust secondary leaders, and ring cable them together, with a steel through bolt system, far older in it's history of proven usefulness to arborists, than me, my father, and grandfather, who fought in WW1.

All 3-5 leaders, are only limited in their dynamic range of motion in one direction, outward, and even that limited outward motion in each leader is only true in it's relation to the others, in other words all 3-5 leaders can move outward as a whole together as one unit, triggering the production of tension and compression on the tree's trunk below.

If installed correctly, my quasi-static steel hardware ring cabling system needs no maintenance in the following years, branches can fall onto the ring and cables following storms, lay there rubbing their wood against my ancient system's steel for years until that deadwood is either sawn in half, or rots.

Defect, identified, the proper cabling system installed, the tree's happy, the customer's happy, and I have earned an honest and ethical day's pay mate.

jomoco

 

[outofmytree]

Good post Jomoco and as I have said more than once, I am not suggesting that static systems do not have their place in arboriculture.

Perhaps it is best to point out to the OP at this point that, if you ask 10 arborists for an opinion, you may often get 10 different opinions. Not all of them will be wrong and not all will be right.

Welcome to fight club.

 

[jomoco]

Good post Jomoco and as I have said more than once, I am not suggesting that static systems do not have their place in arboriculture.

Perhaps it is best to point out to the OP at this point that, if you ask 10 arborists for an opinion, you may often get 10 different opinions. Not all of them will be wrong and not all will be right.

Welcome to fight club.

Right on mate, we're all trying to keep learning.

And it may surprise you to learn that I am not totally against dynamic cabling systems per say, I am just toatally opposed to them in their current BS attachment design, and their BS synthetic embodiment.

Again, a precisely controlled, limited throw, dynamic cabling system, has been around for more than 50 years, but only used by linemen in the electric/telephone industry. They're called inline compression springs, they are made of galvinized steel, they are installed on the actual steel cables themselves, to maintain a uniform tautness in the systems wire cables.

And I'll bet you that some wily old clever arborist back in the 40's already used an inline compression spring in an all steel tree cabling scenario, and I salute him.

I have patents on steel cabling systems that produce electricity from the dynamic motions of trees swaying in the wind mate. I just don't delude myself into thinking I'm doing the poor tree any favors other than letting it live another day.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

All 3-5 leaders, are only limited in their dynamic range of motion in one direction, outward, and even that limited outward motion in each leader is only true in it's relation to the others, in other words all 3-5 leaders can move outward as a whole together as one unit, triggering the production of tension and compression on the tree's trunk below.
jomoco

As pointed out in this very insightful paragraph....the term "static" system is somewhat misleading and the tree is still afforded plenty of movement for aesthetics or whatever perceived other benefits. Just not allowed to exacerbate the defect.

Hey, so far as terminology, supports used to be called "flexible" bracing...cabling

and rigid bracing....rodding.

 

[Ekka]

I cry ....FOUL...on personal attack on valid counterpoints.

You cry a lot we all notice, hence why you already got this response previously. All points have been covered, over and over like a broken record, and also in this thread.

In summation, here's a pic for you.

 

[Jon22]

REMOVE THOSE TREES!
The iriversible damage was already done at the time of the first topping. Just by looking at a few pictures it is easly determined that these trees have serious defects in structure. They are a failure waiting to happen. The best thing to do is let the client know that no matter how much pruning you do it will never fix the structural damage that they let the hacks do many years ago.

 

[treevet]

You cry a lot we all notice, hence why you already got this response previously. All points have been covered, over and over like a broken record, and also in this thread.

Personal attack again blubbergut. You ever get to the states?

 

[jomoco]

Now don't you two guys go O D'ing on me now, this is still a good thread.

jomoco

 

[ddhlakebound]

REMOVE THOSE TREES!
The iriversible damage was already done at the time of the first topping. Just by looking at a few pictures it is easly determined that these trees have serious defects in structure. They are a failure waiting to happen. The best thing to do is let the client know that no matter how much pruning you do it will never fix the structural damage that they let the hacks do many years ago.

Many wild trees are able to thrive and grow into old age even with serious defects created by nature, and no intervention from man. Trees are adaptable, and genetically coded to survive and overcome many of the problems man and nature create for them. It's not needed to fix the structural damage. What is needed is proper care for the tree above and below ground to allow it to create good new structure to support itself, while we manage what is being supported through pruning, cabling, & bracing.

It's one thing to advise of elevated risk and ongoing incurred costs of care for a tree that's defective via man, nature, or genetics, and allow the owner of the tree in question to make a decision based on their willingness to accept that risk. But to make a LOUD, EXCLAMATORY STATEMENT! based on 2d pics of a tree you've never had your hands on is another entirely.

Yes, topping is obviously bad and causes irreversible damage. Irreversible damage is not unmanageable damage in every case, or even most cases. But hey...if all you've got is a chainsaw, make sawdust.

-------------------------------------------

I've been following this thread closely from the beginning fellas, and I'm appreciative of all the wisdom and insights offered here.

 

[Ekka]

Now don't you two guys go O D'ing on me now, this is still a good thread.

jomoco

The comment that has OLD VET fired up was actually directed at you and you certainly haven't reacted the way he has.

Hey Vet, I can always do something about physical appearances however it's a proven scientific fact that intelligence cannot really be improved upon, so life behind the 8-ball is something you'll have to get used to.

 

[ddhlakebound]

Damn guys...

I'm a hard headed stubborn sum beech, but this is becoming agonizing. Has it occurred to any of you that there's value in what been said on both (or all six) sides of this argument, depending upon the situation and application?

You guys are some of the upper echelon of the arb world, hardened experienced PROS, but this is degenerating into a gradeschool playground.

 

[jomoco]

I'm respectfully waiting for any proponents of the current dynamic cabling systems on the market today, to explain how supporting a tree with a material weaker than the tree, makes any common sense whatsoever from a safety or durability standpoint?

jomoco

 

[tree MDS]

Damn guys...

I'm a hard headed stubborn sum beech, but this is becoming agonizing. Has it occurred to any of you that there's value in what been said on both (or all six) sides of this argument, depending upon the situation and application?

You guys are some of the upper echelon of the arb world, hardened experienced PROS, but this is degenerating into a gradeschool playground.

Right on friend!

I get the feeling this is what jon22 was picking up on.